All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (4 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[UriUT]

From the article:

“The genetic sequences were pulled out of swabs taken in and near market stalls around the pandemic’s start. They represent the first bits of raw data that researchers outside of China’s academic institutions and their direct collaborators have had access to. A few weeks ago, the data appeared on an open-access genomic database called GISAID, after being quietly posted by researchers affiliated with the country’s Center for Disease Control and Prevention. By almost pure happenstance, scientists in Europe, North America, and Australia spotted the sequences, downloaded them, and began an analysis.”

“Now, an international team of virologists, genomicists, and evolutionary biologists may have finally found crucial data to help fill that knowledge gap. A new analysis of genetic sequences collected from the market shows that raccoon dogs being illegally sold at the venue could have been carrying and possibly shedding the virus at the end of 2019. It’s some of the strongest support yet, experts told me, that the pandemic began when SARS-CoV-2 hopped from animals into humans, rather than in an accident among scientists experimenting with viruses.

“This really strengthens the case for a natural origin,” says Seema Lakdawala, a virologist at Emory University who wasn’t involved in the research. Angela Rasmussen, a virologist involved in the research, told me, “This is a really strong indication that animals at the market were infected. There’s really no other explanation that makes any sense.””

Are all these scientists lying? Are they all “in on” a huge conspiracy? Make it make sense.

Neil degrasse Tyson said in essence in a recent interview, “we must decide whether we believe in science or we don’t. We cannot accept a scientific result in one case and choose not to accept one from another case”. So if one accepts that global warming is a result of increased co2 in our atmosphere, then we must also accept one from some obscure case. Scientific results is whether we like it or not.

From that article, the genetic sample from thr raccoon dog doesn’t exactly match to the virus sample from humans. However there are samples from other zoonotic sources that are relatively similar to the ones in humans. If human was the source of transmission, that genetic mutation jumping to the raccoon dogs occurred rather quickly…as opposed to the ones in the other animal types. Not to mention human infections would be detected sooner. But if say some source -> raccoon dogs (2019 according to the article) -> some other animal type with similar genetic sequencing sampling -> humans fits the timeline better. The npr article from a few weeks ago also had a very plausible forensic evidence towards the timeline of the infections. And the fact that ALL new infections occurred around the wet market supports the zoonotic origins. If it was a lab leak, then one would believe that new infections would be more randomly placed around the city.

I don’t think wet markets are being discussed enough. Vietnam recognizes the potential of pathogens from wet markets, and have pushed for supermarket models.

 

[MT15]

I saw someone on Twitter who said that the two lab employees who were ill were never diagnosed with Covid, nor were any of their families or neighbors. Whereas there were many people from the wet market who were diagnosed. It just doesn’t make a whole lot of sense at this point in time to say it was a lab accident. There just isn’t the evidence to point to that.

Also, the team who worked in the genetic studies in the Atlantic article were international. They didn’t represent a single country or agency, as far as I know.

 

[J-DONK]

COVID-origins study links raccoon dogs to Wuhan market: what scientists think

Some say the analysis supports the hypothesis that the virus that causes COVID-19 spilled over from an animal — but falls short of definitive proof.

www.nature.com

Raccoon dogs, bamboo rats, palm civets: these are just some of the animals whose DNA has been found in swabs taken from the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market in Wuhan, China, which has been linked to the origin of the COVID-19 pandemic. The swabs also tested positive for SARS-CoV-2, which causes the disease.

Again, I'll repeat this. These samples are from January. What mammal was most likely to have given all these creatures covid? A mystery bat, or a human? They literally looked through a list of creatures with DNA collected from the market, and found one that might be an intermediate host.

Others are more cautious about drawing conclusions on the origins of the pandemic from the analysis. The work confirms which animal species were at the market, but because it includes only samples that had tested positive, “there is no data in this work associating SARS-CoV-2 with the presence of any of these animals”, says Justin Kinney, a quantitative biologist at Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory in New York.

But it is possible that the site was contaminated with SARS-CoV-2 RNA from other sources. “There is no evidence that the virus came from an infected raccoon dog; it could just as easily have come from an infected person,” says Kinney.

Now, why was this ran as we possibly found the origin with a positive sample from a racoon dog? Which is not true. They found DNA from at least three animals.

The best evidence for racoon dogs was more covid found around their cages. That's it.

The area where most of the SARS-CoV-2-positive samples clustered was also where most of the samples containing wild-animal DNA were found, which Poon says “agrees with the hypothesis that maybe the virus came from animals”. Positive swabs from the eastern section of the market primarily contained human DNA — suggesting that there was some human-to-human transmission at the market in early 2020, says Poon.

For all the accusations of ignoring good science. I linked the paper, go read it.

 

[UriUT]

COVID-origins study links raccoon dogs to Wuhan market: what scientists think

Some say the analysis supports the hypothesis that the virus that causes COVID-19 spilled over from an animal — but falls short of definitive proof.

www.nature.com

Again, I'll repeat this. These samples are from January. What mammal was most likely to have given all these creatures covid? A mystery bat, or a human? They literally looked through a list of creatures with DNA collected from the market, and found one that might be an intermediate host.





Now, why was this ran as we possibly found the origin with a positive sample from a racoon dog? Which is not true. They found DNA from at least three animals.

The best evidence for racoon dogs was more covid found around their cages. That's it.



For all the accusations of ignoring good science. I linked the paper, go read it.

So with the forensic data, which is part of the science data, you still think it is more likely human in origin? The original article stated the genetic sample isn’t definitive proof, but it is very close. Again, do you think that if it was from an accidental leak from a lab, would there be cases more randomly placed around the city? Yet all new cases were around the wet market. If the leak theory is more plausible, then we are to assume those lab workers all live near the market and went no where else. Plus, from the npr article, the Chinese authority removed many of the caged animals. That article had photo evidence of animals in stalls and this new study supports.

At this exact same time, a huge COVID outbreak occurred at the market. Hundreds of people, working and shopping at the market, were likely infected. That outbreak is the first documented one of the pandemic, and it then spilled over into the community, as one of the Science papers shows.

You are asking for a smoking gun but many scientists are telling you the evidence shows it’s very close to a slam dunk. Incompleteness of the samples doesn’t imply that there can’t be any link. For one, from your article, and it’s the same fact from the other article, the racccon dogs had genetic materials of the sars virus. It is close to Covid but aren’t identical. Would you think that it would be from a human? I mean it’s possible but a person with sars would be highly detectable as the symptoms develop much quicker than Covid and much more severe. The city would be shut down immediately. Or rather, this practice of selling exotic animals and caging them close to each other where they will easily spread pathogens is more plausible? And again, if it was human in origin, one would expect a similar genetic match in these animals? Why not?

So adding the genetic evidence to the forensic evidence, which is more likely?

Put it this way, the fossil records are incomplete, but do you believe that we evolved from some primate or a group of similar primates?

 

[J-DONK]

So with the forensic data, which is part of the science data, you still think it is more likely human in origin? The original article stated the genetic sample isn’t definitive proof, but it is very close.

Nothing in this article states that. Are you possibly referring to the NYT article?

Again, do you think that if it was from an accidental leak from a lab, would there be cases more randomly placed around the city? Yet all new cases were around the wet market. If the leak theory is more plausible, then we are to assume those lab workers all live near the market and went no where else. Plus, from the npr article, the Chinese authority removed many of the caged animals. That article had photo evidence of animals in stalls and this new study supports.

This is extremely simple. What do I expect from a zoonotic origin? A less viral form of the virus found in a animal reservoir that jumped to humans. That's what you find in these cases. Yes, China removed all samples, or proof. I've already said in this thread I don't think either side is ever going to get definitive proof.

We also have no idea were the first cases were. This is simple. What's wrong with the wet market? The same thing as these samples. TIME.

China says the first cases started in December, and there was a cluster around the market.

What empirical evidence counteracts that?

Waste water samples for Italy, Brazil, and Spain show covid circulating either before, or around the same time frame as December of 2019.

It's why government agencies state they believe covid was circulating in November, if not earlier.

You are asking for a smoking gun but many scientists are telling you the evidence shows it’s very close to a slam dunk. Incompleteness of the samples doesn’t imply that there can’t be any link.

The irony of statements of like this. The word you are looking for is circumstantial. It's circumstantial evidence that racoon dna is found in high concentrations as the virus. Could it have simple been a popular smoking spot, lunch area, or close the bathrooms? I want to make this clear. The zoonotic origin crowd has been lambasting circumstantial evidence for a while now.

For one, from your article, and it’s the same fact from the other article, the racccon dogs had genetic materials of the sars virus. It is close to Covid but aren’t identical. Would you think that it would be from a human? I mean it’s possible but a person with sars would be highly detectable as the symptoms develop much quicker than Covid and much more severe. The city would be shut down immediately.

I have no idea what you are trying state here. We know cats, and dogs get covid from humans. I'm going to capitalize since you seem to missing the point. BY JANUARY OF 2020 CHINA HAD A FULL BLOWN PANDEMIC. You do understand when these samples were taken?

Or rather, this practice of selling exotic animals and caging them close to each other where they will easily spread pathogens is more plausible? And again, if it was human in origin, one would expect a similar genetic match in these animals? Why not?

So adding the genetic evidence to the forensic evidence, which is more likely?

Put it this way, the fossil records are incomplete, but do you believe that we evolved from some primate or a group of similar primates?

It's more likely that infected humans were shedding the virus. AFAIK, there is zero evidence that shows racoon dogs, as a more transmissible, or sheds more virus then a human.

We still don't have the answer to why did the original Wuhan variant of covid transmit so easy in humans?

 

[UriUT]

Nothing in this article states that. Are you possibly referring to the NYT article?



This is extremely simple. What do I expect from a zoonotic origin? A less viral form of the virus found in a animal reservoir that jumped to humans. That's what you find in these cases. Yes, China removed all samples, or proof. I've already said in this thread I don't think either side is ever going to get definitive proof.

We also have no idea were the first cases were. This is simple. What's wrong with the wet market? The same thing as these samples. TIME.

China says the first cases started in December, and there was a cluster around the market.

What empirical evidence counteracts that?

Waste water samples for Italy, Brazil, and Spain show covid circulating either before, or around the same time frame as December of 2019.

It's why government agencies state they believe covid was circulating in November, if not earlier.



The irony of statements of like this. The word you are looking for is circumstantial. It's circumstantial evidence that racoon dna is found in high concentrations as the virus. Could it have simple been a popular smoking spot, lunch area, or close the bathrooms? I want to make this clear. The zoonotic origin crowd has been lambasting circumstantial evidence for a while now.



I have no idea what you are trying state here. We know cats, and dogs get covid from humans. I'm going to capitalize since you seem to missing the point. BY JANUARY OF 2020 CHINA HAD A FULL BLOWN PANDEMIC. You do understand when these samples were taken?



It's more likely that infected humans were shedding the virus. AFAIK, there is zero evidence that shows racoon dogs, as a more transmissible, or sheds more virus then a human.

We still don't have the answer to why did the original Wuhan variant of covid transmit so easy in humans?

No it’s from that article. Deep into it you can find the reasoning. They have pictures, and the case data that all centered around that wet market.

When I speak of the transmission, we are also looking at the genetic pattern right? No one refutes that Covid can jump from humans to animals. So if Covid jumps to a cat, you would expect the genetic sequence to be relatively similar right? Mutations can then occur as the virus replicates. So if the mutation occurs in humans, a similar pattern should be found in the animal, right? But in this circumstance, we have a series of infection in humans, but a different progenitor pattern in raccoon dogs for example. Now it can be that human was the origin and mutations are in the zoonotic sources. But as I’ve stated, that doesn’t fit the timeline. Why would the raccoon dogs have a progenitor sequence…sars…if the origins is from humans….at the same time as you say?

And the other thing that cannot be ignored is why is all the infections around the wet market? That evidence combined with the sequencing makes a compelling argument. A slam dunk to me.

 

[coldseat]

We still don't have the answer to why did the original Wuhan variant of covid transmit so easy in humans?

I thought that had to do with the spike protein in Covid. If I'm not mistaken, later versions of Covid transmitted even easier than the original because of the continued mutation in the spike protein.

 

[UriUT]

I thought that had to do with the spike protein in Covid. If I'm not mistaken, later versions of Covid transmitted even easier than the original because of the continued mutation in the spike protein.

I can’t attest for this specifically but we get infected with ease all the time. We grab money from someone and it has pathogens. Someone coughs and we may inhale the pathogen. It’s all about evading our immune system; and if the protein coating/shell isn’t recognized by our immune system that virus will do what it does. If the mutation…even in an animal results in a protein that has low affinity to our antibodies, likely the virus will evade our immune system and it will replicate in our body. If the virus is recognized, our body will clear it, reducing the time that virus can mutate the recognized protein, genetic material. Once that is the case that it has the unrecognized protein coating, it will transmit with ease.

 

[SaintForLife]

The answer is in the link from my post. And it’s not the conspiracy you think it is. Just another corporate media stooge explanation though…so it’s not reliable. The Russians says they are biological, so that must be the truth. Since they don’t lie.

Don't you have some misinformation to be complaining about? They do have other countries that believe in censorship like you do. Have you checked them out?

 

[SaintForLife]

You two just really, really want to make something out of nothing.

It’s what most of the scientists believe, it makes the most sense, and believe me if some scientist somewhere could prove human manipulation of this virus they would publish in a flat minute.

If we find evidence of human manipulation of this virus, then you guys can have a field day. Until then you’re ignoring what is a far more likely scenario for your favored conclusion.

Classic confirmation bias, IMO.

You are ignoring many of the details that call in question the latest week attempt to try to steer the the discussion back to zoonotic original.

A study suggesting that raccoon dogs may have started the Covid pandemic is 'risibly thin' and compiled by authors who have previously claimed to have 'incontrovertible' proof of a market origin, scientists have warned.

Before publication, the story was leaked to The Atlantic, who claimed it was 'the strongest evidence yet that an animal started the pandemic'. Yet after the study was published last night, several experts said the claims were misleading

The data provide no substantive new information about the origins of Covid-19, even if taken at face value. There is no evidence that..raccoon dog was even infected with SARS-CoV-2"

Scientists discredit raccoon dog Covid origin study

Group of experts say claims are misleading and argue data provide 'no substantive new information' about the origins of the virus in China

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[SaintForLife]

 

[samiam5211]

Dr. Fauci is an American hero.

In the future all garden gnomes will be replaced by little Fauci's. He will keep American's flowers safe.

 

[MT15]

Don't you have some misinformation to be complaining about? They do have other countries that believe in censorship like you do. Have you checked them out?

This is nothing but a snarky personal attack. If you cannot participate in the earnest discussion taking place, you shouldn’t interject this kind of crap. IMO.

 

[UriUT]

Don't you have some misinformation to be complaining about? They do have other countries that believe in censorship like you do. Have you checked them out?

[edit: toning down my response]

Look, you obviously didn’t read the link in my response, and continued on with your conspiracy of some nefarious us plot. I even quoted the reason why the us funded those research facilities. Yet you wanted to believe the Russian narrative that the us was developing biological weapons in Ukraine. A serious, sane person would instantly ask why the us would do what the Russian propaganda wants you to believe, especially if one knows that Ukraine was corrupt in those days. So the evil us would fund it and release that destruction to the world? Are you effing kidding? Also that corruption, similarly to how Russia operates, is the catalyst for the orange and maidan revolution. They want a better future; not one where a select few will steal from them. Not the constant conspiracy that you have affinity towards.

Regardless, if I complain about mis/disinformation at every instance, I would reply to your post more often. But I just don’t have the energy. No one does.

Also, I suggest you look read what censorship is before you proceed further.

 

[SaintForLife]

 

[Optimus Prime]

An analysis that was the basis of a highly criticized recommendation from Florida's surgeon general cautioning young men against getting the COVID-19 vaccine omitted information that showed catching the virus could increase the risk of a cardiac-related death much more than getting the mRNA shot, according to drafts of the analysis obtained by the Tampa Bay Times.

The nonbinding recommendation made by Florida Surgeon General Joseph Ladapo last fall ran counter to the advice provided by the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Ladapo, a Harvard-trained medical doctor who was appointed by Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis in 2021 to head the Florida Department of Health, has drawn intense scrutiny over his shared resistance with the Republican governor to COVID-19 mandates for vaccines and masks and other health policies endorsed by the federal government.

The Department of Health on Saturday didn’t respond to an email seeking comment.

The early drafts of the analysis obtained by the Times through a records request showed that catching COVID-19 could increase the chances of a cardiac-related death much more than getting the vaccine, but that information was missing from the final version put out by the Florida Department of Health last October.

Ladapo said that the risk of men ages 18 to 39 having cardiac complications outweighed the benefits of getting the mRNA vaccine.

Matt Hitchings, an infectious disease epidemiologist and professor of biostatistics at the University of Florida, told the Times that it seems that sections of the analysis were omitted because they did not fit the narrative the surgeon general wanted to push.

“This is a grave violation of research integrity,” Hitchings said. “(The vaccine) has done a lot to advance the health of people of Florida and he’s encouraging people to mistrust it.”…….

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-american-academy-of-pediatrics-b2316541.html

 

[MT15]

Ladapo is a complete loon, and the fact that DeSantis would appoint him - going so far as to import him from California is just reason number 1001 why DeSantis isn’t fit for office anywhere.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Guess this can go here
================

Anti-vaccine activist and conspiracy theorist Robert F Kennedy Jr has officially declared himself to be a candidate in next year’s Democratic presidential primary, ending a four-decade stretch of presidential elections without a member of his famous family on the ballot.

Mr Kennedy, the son of assassinated 1968 presidential candidate Robert F Kennedy and the nephew of assassinated president John F Kennedy, announced his candidacy in a long and winding speech in Boston alongside his wife, actress Cheryl Hines.

Notably absent from the event were any other members of America’s most famous Democratic political dynasty, which has sent members of the family to the House and Senate since the 1960s.

The environmental lawyer turned anti-vax crusader’s foray into presidential politics isn’t being made with the support of any of his numerous relations, many of whom have gone on record to condemn him and stress their support for President Joe Biden’s yet-to-be-declared re-election bid.

His years of public opposition to childhood vaccinations against communicable diseases — and his more recent advocacy against Covid-19 vaccines — has made him a pariah among Democrats and a superstar in extremist Republican circles, making his choice to run as a Democrat particularly puzzling to many experts……

Robert F Kennedy Jr snubbed by his own family at 2024 presidential campaign launch

Noted conspiracy theorist has little chance of winning the Democratic presidential nomination

www.independent.co.uk