All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (2 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[Farb]

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/310963

The authors concluded that vaccination after natural infection is unlikely to have any benefit for recovered COVID patients.
“Individuals who have had SARS-CoV-2 infection are unlikely to benefit from COVID-19 vaccination, and vaccines can be safely prioritized to those who have not been infected before.”
Previous studies in Israel and Qatar have found extremely low levels of reinfection among recovered coronavirus patients.
More recent data collected by the Israeli Health Ministry in the midst of outbreaks of the Delta Variant found that there were far fewer cases of reinfection after natural infection than there were infections among vaccinated Israelis who had never been diagnosed with the virus previously.
With a total of 835,792 Israelis known to have recovered from the virus, the 72 instances of reinfection amount to 0.0086% of people who were already infected with COVID.
By contrast, Israelis who were vaccinated were 6.72 times more likely to get infected after the shot than after natural infection, with over 3,000 of the 5,193,499, or 0.0578%, of Israelis who were vaccinated getting infected in the latest wave.

I obviously find this fascinating because I have not gotten the jab and don't intend to, but I also love the way CNN headlined the news on the study from Israel:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/25/health/vaccine-risks-infection-comparison/index.html

Covid vaccine much safer than catching the virus, study in Israel finds​

They either missed the point of the study..now studies deliberately, or somebody got paid. Probably both.

 

[coldseat]

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/310963

The authors concluded that vaccination after natural infection is unlikely to have any benefit for recovered COVID patients.
“Individuals who have had SARS-CoV-2 infection are unlikely to benefit from COVID-19 vaccination, and vaccines can be safely prioritized to those who have not been infected before.”
Previous studies in Israel and Qatar have found extremely low levels of reinfection among recovered coronavirus patients.
More recent data collected by the Israeli Health Ministry in the midst of outbreaks of the Delta Variant found that there were far fewer cases of reinfection after natural infection than there were infections among vaccinated Israelis who had never been diagnosed with the virus previously.
With a total of 835,792 Israelis known to have recovered from the virus, the 72 instances of reinfection amount to 0.0086% of people who were already infected with COVID.
By contrast, Israelis who were vaccinated were 6.72 times more likely to get infected after the shot than after natural infection, with over 3,000 of the 5,193,499, or 0.0578%, of Israelis who were vaccinated getting infected in the latest wave.

I obviously find this fascinating because I have not gotten the jab and don't intend to, but I also love the way CNN headlined the news on the study from Israel:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/25/health/vaccine-risks-infection-comparison/index.html

Covid vaccine much safer than catching the virus, study in Israel finds​

They either missed the point of the study..now studies deliberately, or somebody got paid. Probably both.

Those two articles aren't referencing the same study. The article on the Israel National News site is referencing a study that took place in Cleveland, Ohio and studied 52,238 people. The one from CNN article is referencing a study that took place in Israel and studied 2 million people.

If you read both articles, it's pretty obvious.

 

[MT15]

Farb, what made you think that the CNN article is part of some sort of shadowy conspiracy that somebody is being paid to misrepresent the facts? What made you think that getting a vaccine with a great safety record is NOT safer than getting a dangerous, deadly novel virus?

I really want to know this. This is so completely counterintuitive, it has me curious.

 

[Farb]

Those two articles aren't referencing the same study. The article on the Israel National News site is referencing a study that took place in Cleveland, Ohio and studied 52,238 people. The one from CNN article is referencing a study that took place in Israel and studied 2 million people.

If you read both articles, it's pretty obvious.

Yes, but in the first article, they discuss the new study, it was the part I included in context.

 

[Farb]

Farb, what made you think that the CNN article is part of some sort of shadowy conspiracy that somebody is being paid to misrepresent the facts? What made you think that getting a vaccine with a great safety record is NOT safer than getting a dangerous, deadly novel virus?

I really want to know this. This is so completely counterintuitive, it has me curious.

I am not sure at this point if it shadowy or just journalistic incomitance. Probably both.

My point is that natural infection is a very real thing and is starting to show to be more robust than the vaccine. The way the 'experts' have gone above and beyond to ignore or hide that fact for the 'everyone do you duty and get the jab' approach raises my antenna. I am by no means suggesting everyone start licking door knobs so they can contract it naturally because it is a deadly virus for a very small amount. On the other hand, the binary approach is getting tiresome and people have and will start pushing back.

https://news.yahoo.com/judge-strips-chicago-mother-parental-142800477.html

update, the judge here decided he didn't like the pub so he rescinded the order. His name should be remembered and the mother should sue him personally, the state and the city until she owns Illinois.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/20...d-mother-didnt-wear-mask-dropping-off-school/

This was over wearing a mask.

This is why people are skeptical of the so called experts. These 'experts' are also experts in gun laws and private property rights now, so the trust is definitely waning.

 

[MT15]

The headline of the CNN article is that getting the vaccine is safer than getting the virus. You seemed to take issue with that statement. Do you think there is anything wrong with that statement?

 

[coldseat]

Yes, but in the first article, they discuss the new study, it was the part I included in context.

They still aren't referencing the same study. The one the Israeli news article is referencing had 6,029,291 total patients it studied. The CNN study the article is referencing had 2,000,000 patients it studied. There are a lot of studies looking different aspects of Covid right now.

Israeli news article:

With a total of 835,792 Israelis known to have recovered from the virus, the 72 instances of reinfection amount to 0.0086% of people who were already infected with COVID.


By contrast, Israelis who were vaccinated were 6.72 times more likely to get infected after the shot than after natural infection, with over 3,000 of the 5,193,499, or 0.0578%, of Israelis who were vaccinated getting infected in the latest wave.

CNN article:

A large study involving close to 2 million people in Israel shows the Pfizer/BioNTech coronavirus vaccine slightly raises the risk of heart inflammation, swollen lymph nodes and shingles. But it also finds that Covid-19 infection raises the risk of heart inflammation even more -- plus it raises the risk of blood clots, heart attacks and other deadly events.

 

[MT15]

Sigh, the Gateway Pundit? That is strictly trash. That’s a trash “article” by a trash “journalist”.

It’s pure unadulterated “outrage porn”. But you know that, I’m guessing.

From Media Bias/Fact Check:

Detailed Report​

Questionable Reasoning: Propaganda, Conspiracy, Nationalism, Some Fake News, Numerous Failed Fact Checks
Bias Rating: EXTREME RIGHT
Factual Reporting: VERY LOW
Country: USA (44/180 Press Freedom)
Media Type: Website
Traffic/Popularity: High Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: LOW CREDIBILITY

History​

The Gateway Pundit publishes extremely right-biased news and commentary that promotes conspiracy theories and the routine publication of falsehoods (see analysis). The website was founded by Jim Hoft in 2004 to “speak the truth” and to “expose the wickedness of the left.”

According to their about page, “The Gateway Pundit is one of the top political websites. It is consistently ranked as one of the top political blogs in the nation. TGP has been cited by Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, The Drudge Report, The Blaze, Mark Levin, FOX Nation, and several international news organizations.”

On 6/6/2021, The Gateway Pundit was moved to Very-Low factual reporting based on failed facts on a near-daily basis.

In review, The Gateway Pundit demonstrates extreme right-wing bias in story selection that always favors the right and denigrates the left. There is significant use of loaded emotional language in headlines such as this: President Trump RIPS INTO Peter Strzok After He’s Fired – Calls For Hillary ‘Sham Investigation’ to be ‘Properly Redone.’ The Gateway Pundit is also fiercely dedicated to the promotion of Donald Trump. TGP always sources their information but sometimes utilizes questionable sources such as Breitbart and Mike Cernovich, who have terrible track records with fact-checkers.

The Gateway Pundit has published numerous false or conspiracy stories such as Hillary Clinton having a seizure, identifying an innocent person in the Las Vegas mass shooting, and identifying the wrong person after the motor vehicle homicide at the White Supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia. Further, TGP claimed the “FBI received tips well in advance of the Florida school shooting and decided, for whatever reason, not to act.” Finally, based on publishing false information, TGP has faced lawsuits for defamation and damages to innocent individuals.

 

[coldseat]

I am not sure at this point if it shadowy or just journalistic incomitance. Probably both.

My point is that natural infection is a very real thing and is starting to show to be more robust than the vaccine. The way the 'experts' have gone above and beyond to ignore or hide that fact for the 'everyone do you duty and get the jab' approach raises my antenna. I am by no means suggesting everyone start licking door knobs so they can contract it naturally because it is a deadly virus for a very small amount. On the other hand, the binary approach is getting tiresome and people have and will start pushing back.

https://news.yahoo.com/judge-strips-chicago-mother-parental-142800477.html

update, the judge here decided he didn't like the pub so he rescinded the order. His name should be remembered and the mother should sue him personally, the state and the city until she owns Illinois.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/20...d-mother-didnt-wear-mask-dropping-off-school/

This was over wearing a mask.

This is why people are skeptical of the so called experts. These 'experts' are also experts in gun laws and private property rights now, so the trust is definitely waning.

You do realize that the rate of infection among the vaccinated population that they found was literally 5 hundredth of a one percent, right? I mean 6.72 times more sounds like a lot, but it was literally 5 hundredth of a percent.

In any case, what they experts haven been saying all along is that they didn't know how long protection from a natural Immunity response to the virus would last. Not that they people that did recover from the virus wouldn't have one. Thankfully, there are early signs that a natural Immunity response my provide longer protection than originally anticipated. Hopefully that's a good thing that will help us reach heard immunity, assuming that's still possible and that the virus doesn't continue mutating to the point that natural immunity + vaccine immunity isn't effective.

 

[SaulGoodmanEsq]

Anyone citing The Gateway Pundit is either: 1) trolling/playing a character just to get a rise out of people; or 2) completely lost to reality because they want to perpetuate the fiction of their own echo chamber. They read such websites an an opiate because they don't want to be intellectually challenged on their positions. No need to engage because it won't produce any meaningful dialogue.

 

[DaveXA]

Sigh, the Gateway Pundit? That is strictly trash. That’s a trash “article” by a trash “journalist”.

It’s pure unadulterated “outrage porn”. But you know that, I’m guessing.

From Media Bias/Fact Check:

Detailed Report​

Questionable Reasoning: Propaganda, Conspiracy, Nationalism, Some Fake News, Numerous Failed Fact Checks
Bias Rating: EXTREME RIGHT
Factual Reporting: VERY LOW
Country: USA (44/180 Press Freedom)
Media Type: Website
Traffic/Popularity: High Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: LOW CREDIBILITY

History​

The Gateway Pundit publishes extremely right-biased news and commentary that promotes conspiracy theories and the routine publication of falsehoods (see analysis). The website was founded by Jim Hoft in 2004 to “speak the truth” and to “expose the wickedness of the left.”

According to their about page, “The Gateway Pundit is one of the top political websites. It is consistently ranked as one of the top political blogs in the nation. TGP has been cited by Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, The Drudge Report, The Blaze, Mark Levin, FOX Nation, and several international news organizations.”

On 6/6/2021, The Gateway Pundit was moved to Very-Low factual reporting based on failed facts on a near-daily basis.

In review, The Gateway Pundit demonstrates extreme right-wing bias in story selection that always favors the right and denigrates the left. There is significant use of loaded emotional language in headlines such as this: President Trump RIPS INTO Peter Strzok After He’s Fired – Calls For Hillary ‘Sham Investigation’ to be ‘Properly Redone.’ The Gateway Pundit is also fiercely dedicated to the promotion of Donald Trump. TGP always sources their information but sometimes utilizes questionable sources such as Breitbart and Mike Cernovich, who have terrible track records with fact-checkers.

The Gateway Pundit has published numerous false or conspiracy stories such as Hillary Clinton having a seizure, identifying an innocent person in the Las Vegas mass shooting, and identifying the wrong person after the motor vehicle homicide at the White Supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia. Further, TGP claimed the “FBI received tips well in advance of the Florida school shooting and decided, for whatever reason, not to act.” Finally, based on publishing false information, TGP has faced lawsuits for defamation and damages to innocent individuals.

The Gateway Pundit is about as close as you can get to Qanon without it actually being Qanon. Trash is a kind way of describing it.

 

[samiam5211]

This is why people are skeptical of the so called experts. These 'experts' are also experts in gun laws and private property rights now, so the trust is definitely waning.

People are skeptical of experts because of Dunning Kreuger.

I remember reading "See, I told you so", by Rush Limbaugh in Jr. High.

He said in that book that we should trust our judgement over experts on things, because our common sense was better than people with an "agenda". Paraphrasing it of course. It was advice that should be the textbook example of Dunning Kreuger. Many of his followers have never outgrown that terrible advice.

At the time, i thought that was good advice, then i grew up.

Expertise is more valuable than ever.

 

[DaveXA]

People are skeptical of experts because of Dunning Kreuger.

I remember reading "See, I told you so", by Rush Limbaugh in Jr. High.

He said in that book that we should trust our judgement over experts on things, because our common sense was better than people with an "agenda". Paraphrasing it of course. It was advice that should be the textbook example of Dunning Kreuger. Many of his followers have never outgrown that terrible advice.

At the time, i thought that was good advice, then i grew up.

Expertise is more valuable than ever.

The reason he's wrong is because not everyone has the agenda he's suggesting, and as a general rule, most experts are such because they understand how things work. They might have an agenda, but their agenda comes after their work, not before.

 

[samiam5211]

The reason he's wrong is because not everyone has the agenda he's suggesting, and as a general rule, most experts are such because they understand how things work. They might have an agenda, but their agenda comes after their work, not before.

Right, Rush was just telling his fans what he knew would make them feel good about themselves, to sell books.

It’s fine when it’s about things that don’t really impact our lives, but covid has shown we’re nearing critical mass of common sense know it all’s.

 

[SaulGoodmanEsq]

Right, Rush was just telling his fans what he knew would make them feel good about themselves, to sell books.

Bingo. Same is true for Hannity, Shapiro, and even Trump. Classic case of the tail wagging the dog. And that's how the inmates end up running the asylum.

 

[Farb]

You do realize that the rate of infection among the vaccinated population that they found was literally 5 hundredth of a one percent, right? I mean 6.72 times more sounds like a lot, but it was literally 5 hundredth of a percent.

In any case, what they experts haven been saying all along is that they didn't know how long protection from a natural Immunity response to the virus would last. Not that they people that did recover from the virus wouldn't have one. Thankfully, there are early signs that a natural Immunity response my provide longer protection than originally anticipated. Hopefully that's a good thing that will help us reach heard immunity, assuming that's still possible and that the virus doesn't continue mutating to the point that natural immunity + vaccine immunity isn't effective.

What does the natural immunity with the jab do?
Better or worse

 

[MT15]

I think the jury is still out, Farb. It’s too new. The reason doctors the world over are recommending that people who have had Covid still get the vaccine is that it’s a very safe vaccine, and it costs nothing to get it. There is a theory that it provides an extra bit of immunity over the natural immunity.

 

[Farb]

Anyone citing The Gateway Pundit is either: 1) trolling/playing a character just to get a rise out of people; or 2) completely lost to reality because they want to perpetuate the fiction of their own echo chamber. They read such websites an an opiate because they don't want to be intellectually challenged on their positions. No need to engage because it won't produce any meaningful dialogue.

Or a quick google search and it was on the front page?

No, it has to be I am a troll or completely a wack job, right?

Please, please follow your advice.