All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (7 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[lurk]

I am expressing myself "authoritatively" when I am probably the only person in this thread who has said they don't know a lot about this stuff? Perhaps you need a dictionary?

Repeating your same largely-misinformed view ad nauseum without giving critical consideration or fact-based rebuttal to the counter arguments you've been presented with is most certainly a form of speaking authoritatively. At the end of the day, the loudest, most repeated voice wins out, no matter how false it is, as you well know. Overbearing mothers and certain politicians/media members have made an art of this for a very long time (again, as you are well aware).

 

[SystemShock]

Everyone is aware we have a flu shot and tamaflu right? I believe 40% of the populations gets it. Imagine how many people would die each year without the flu shot. This is more contagious.

Also influenza has been around forever. This is new. Like 4 months old to the world new. And less than three months old here. No one’s immune system has any antibody for this, hence the ridiculously high rate of infection. Yes it mostly kills old people, but also obese and those with diabetes.

Finally, It is the strain that this will put on the healthcare industry - which was understaffed before this began- when those people get sick and ICUs fill up. Then what? A lot more people die than would have. This isn’t anecdotal, these are the real accounts from physicians in Italy. We are a few weeks behind them. They are making wartime triage decisions. I mean Italy is a fraction of our size and they are having 2000+ cases a day now. Hundreds dying every day.

Before it was for ratings. Now it is just overblown. What will be the story in 2 weeks when we look like Italy x 3?

Certainly we are not Italy. Italy seems to be a unique case. The counter over the EE which everyone is following says they have 17,600 cases diagnosed. Even if you hospitalize all 17,600, something seems not right when 17,600 patients overwhelm the healthcare system of a country of 60 million.

Along those lines, reading this article about a woman in Seattle who recovered from the virus, and this line caught my eye:

The Seattle area is the epicenter of the coronavirus outbreak in the US. Of the 1,635 cases reported in the country since the Covid-19 first appeared in January, 457 of them are in Washington, including 41 deaths.

The numbers are not current, but if we take the numbers of the BNO counter, out of the 2466 recorded cases in the U.S., 568 occurred in Seattle, which amounts to 23% of all recorded cases in the U.S. However, those cases amount for 84% of all deaths (37 of 44). So what is it about Seattle ?

 

[JimEverett]

Repeating your same largely-misinformed view ad nauseum without giving critical consideration or fact-based rebuttal to the counter arguments you've been presented with is most certainly a form of speaking authoritatively. At the end of the day, the loudest, most repeated voice wins out, no matter how false it is, as you well know. Controlling mothers and certain politicians/media members have made an art of this for a very long time (again, as you are well aware).

its sort of hard to know what you mean when you say I am not giving consideration to fact-based counter-arguments without actual examples.

 

[lurk]

its sort of hard to know what you mean when you say I am not giving consideration to fact-based counter-arguments without actual examples.

Luckily for you, you've stumbled across an entire thread of examples for you to peruse.

 

[Heathen]

I'm still in shock that Americans will be able to be treated for this free of charge.

Guess it took stocks tanking to get the attention of Republicans to the joke that is American health care

 

[lurk]

I'm still in shock that Americans will be able to be treated for this free of charge.

Where have you seen that? The only coverage I've seen discussed is coverage for the initial test.

 

[SystemShock]

Something to ponder about risk perception

 

[SystemShock]

I'm still in shock that Americans will be able to be treated for this free of charge.

Guess it took stocks tanking to get the attention of Republicans to the joke that is American health care

I believe it is tested, not treated.

 

[samiam5211]

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its sort of hard to know what you mean when you say I am not giving consideration to fact-based counter-arguments without actual examples.

Have you spent much time reading about the progression of the situiation in Italy or any of the other countries that are further into the outbreak than we are?

Every one of those places has went through a phase where people don’t take it seriously enough, then some people start to panick while others mock them, then everyone panics.

At some point we have to stop arguing over whether people are overreacting and start working together on a community level to get through what is just getting started.

We’re all on our own together.

 

[dtc]

I'm still in shock that Americans will be able to be treated for this free of charge.

Guess it took stocks tanking to get the attention of Republicans to the joke that is American health care

Wait, you're saying we are going to treat the uninsured for free? Why would we do that? Why not quarantine them and let them stew in their own filth since the chose cell phones over insurance and refused to pay for subsidized insurance?

I thought we were only getting free tests with the understanding that the administration has thus tripped and stumbled into a situation where we have no tests and are not testing.

I assumed that was the Trump scam this time. Promise free tests for everyone despite the fact that we don't have any.

 

[MT15]

Certainly we are not Italy. Italy seems to be a unique case. The counter over the EE which everyone is following says they have 17,600 cases diagnosed. Even if you hospitalize all 17,600, something seems not right when 17,600 patients overwhelm the healthcare system of a country of 60 million.

Along those lines, reading this article about a woman in Seattle who recovered from the virus, and this line caught my eye:



The numbers are not current, but if we take the numbers of the BNO counter, out of the 2466 recorded cases in the U.S., 568 occurred in Seattle, which amounts to 23% of all recorded cases in the U.S. However, those cases amount for 84% of all deaths (37 of 44). So what is it about Seattle ?

I believe one of the outbreaks in Seattle centered in a nursing home. You guys are so busy looking for ways to be “right” about downplaying this epidemic that you overlook the obvious.

 

[MT15]

Where have you seen that? The only coverage I've seen discussed is coverage for the initial test.

I believe Trump actually said it during his address from the Oval Office. He was supposed to say “testing” was going to be free and instead he said “treatment”. It was one of several gaffes that had to be corrected about that speech.

 

[SystemShock]

I believe one of the outbreaks in Seattle centered in a nursing home. You guys are so busy looking for ways to be “right” about downplaying this epidemic that you overlook the obvious.

Why, thank you for the condescension. Much appreciated.

 

[MT15]

Why, thank you for the condescension. Much appreciated.

I apologize, I really wasn’t trying to be condescending. It’s just that fact has been widely reported, and makes so much sense that I thought it was an example of ignoring the obvious to try to discredit what you don’t want to believe.

If you truly didnt know, I was wrong.

 

[SystemShock]

I apologize, I really wasn’t trying to be condescending. It’s just that fact has been widely reported, and makes so much sense that I thought it was an example of ignoring the obvious to try to discredit what you don’t want to believe.

If you truly didnt know, I was wrong.

I did know. As I am very sure the people I am replying to knew as well.

 

[Lapaz]

Certainly we are not Italy. Italy seems to be a unique case. The counter over the EE which everyone is following says they have 17,600 cases diagnosed. Even if you hospitalize all 17,600, something seems not right when 17,600 patients overwhelm the healthcare system of a country of 60 million.

Along those lines, reading this article about a woman in Seattle who recovered from the virus, and this line caught my eye:



The numbers are not current, but if we take the numbers of the BNO counter, out of the 2466 recorded cases in the U.S., 568 occurred in Seattle, which amounts to 23% of all recorded cases in the U.S. However, those cases amount for 84% of all deaths (37 of 44). So what is it about Seattle ?

You’re not taking into account that most of any country’s ICU beds are occupied at any given time due to many other diseases. Also, i’ve read that typically there are less than 1% of hospital beds per person. The U.S is much less than that. We have less than 100k ICU beds, so enough ICU beds for less than 0.3% of our population. Let’s say Italy does better, so if they have beds for 0:5% of their 60M people then that would mean they would have 560k beds, and 448k are in use. Of the 112k remaining, probably only 6K at most are ICU beds. Italy currently has over 17k patients. If 1/2 require ICU, then they would need 8500 so they would be short.

 

[SystemShock]

You’re not taking into account that most of any country’s ICU beds are occupied at any given time due to many other diseases. Also, i’ve read that typically there are less than 1% of hospital beds per person. The U.S is much less than that. We have less than 100k ICU beds, so enough ICU beds for less than 0.3% of our population. Let’s say Italy does better, so if they have beds for 0:5% of their 60M people then that would mean they would have 560k beds, and 448k are in use. Of the 112k remaining, probably only 6K at most are ICU beds. Italy currently has over 17k patients. If 1/2 require ICU, then they would need 8500 so they would be short.

So, neither you or I know much about the Italian healthcare system, so let's put aside projections for a second and look at actual numbers...

According to the tracker that's being followed over at the EE, current serious or critical cases in all of Italy stand at 1328. I would think that is the number of people currently hospitalized for covid-19. If 1328 patients are going to throw a huge wrench on the healthcare system of a country with a population of 60 million, then I think there is something very wrong with that healthcare system.

 

[Lapaz]

So, neither you or I know much about the Italian healthcare system, so let's put aside projections for a second and look at actual numbers...

According to the tracker that's being followed over at the EE, current serious or critical cases in all of Italy stand at 1328. I would think that is the number of people currently hospitalized for covid-19. If 1328 patients are going to throw a huge wrench on the healthcare system of a country with a population of 60 million, then I think there is something very wrong with that healthcare system.

The country of Italy should have enough open ICU beds, but my understanding is that the problem is in Northern Italy. I have looked, but haven't found the stats on beds in Italy, but they may and probably do have concentrations of sick people, so they have to figure out how to either move the patients to other areas without concentrations, or creating new places to treat those patients in the concentration zones. That seems like a huge wrench. Also, even if they work out that logistics, it is my best guess that they should have about 5,000 ICU beds in Italy, so if the virus continues to spread, it won't take long to fill those beds, even with perfect logistics. Due diligence requires preparing for many more beds and healthcare workers to care for them. Fortunately China will provide some, but it looks like other countries will soon face the same problem.