All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (2 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[samiam5211]

For me the determining factor will not be hotspots, it will be whether the health care system is overwhelmed. Where that happens, I think it is fair to say that to the extent that area opened up it was a failure.

The debate will end up being do we wait until the healthcare systems are already overwhelmed before we shut them down again?

There is about a 10 day lag between shutting down and seeing a decrease in new cases. If the hospital is overwhelmed and still has 10 - 14 days of exponential growth to deal with it will be a terrible failure of leadership.

 

[bdb13]

For me the determining factor will not be hotspots, it will be whether the health care system is overwhelmed. Where that happens, I think it is fair to say that to the extent that area opened up it was a failure.

Yep, and the answer to keeping the local health system from being overwhelmed is going to be different in New York City than it is in Atlanta than it is in Pensacola and so on.

But unfortunately we'll see hotspots and people are still going to die In numbers that will be higher than we want to accept even if we're successful in preventing the local systems from becoming overwhelmed. There's just no realistic way around that that I see.

Hopefully it's possible in most localities to strike a balance that allows more freedom for individuals and businesses while preventing the additional deaths that would inevitably come with an overwhelmed health system.

We are all going to get to see soon enough here.

 

[Humperdoo]

Texas park ranger asking people to comply with social distancing is pushed into lake; suspect arrested

Video recording shows a man pushing a park ranger into a lake after asking a group to disperse.

www.foxnews.com

Not a fan of pushing a park ranger into a lake.

 

[Humperdoo]

Wow. Ballsy.

Democratic Rep. Vernon Jones on endorsing Trump: 'I put my country before my party'

Democratic Georgia lawmaker Rep. Vernon Jones, who endorsed President Trump for reelection last month, said on “Fox & Friends Weekend” on Sunday that “I put my country before my party and I wish more people would do that.”

www.foxnews.com

 

[bdb13]

Wow. Ballsy.

Democratic Rep. Vernon Jones on endorsing Trump: 'I put my country before my party'

Democratic Georgia lawmaker Rep. Vernon Jones, who endorsed President Trump for reelection last month, said on “Fox & Friends Weekend” on Sunday that “I put my country before my party and I wish more people would do that.”

www.foxnews.com

When asked Sunday how he came to the realization he wanted to endorse Trump, Jones said, “This president has shown two great things: one [is] leadership, two [is] results.”

He cited Trump's great leadership? That's.. uh.. different than what I've observed.

 

[Intensesaint]

He cited Trump's great leadership? That's.. uh.. different than what I've observed.

Because you only want to see what confirms your bias.

I'm sure he is already being called an Uncle Tom in leftist circles. Or hell, probably the Georgia Democratic party is calling him that.

 

[bdb13]

Because you only want to see what confirms your bias.

Not true in my case.

I'm sure he is already being called an Uncle Tom in leftist circles. Or hell, probably the Georgia Democratic party is calling him that.

People shouldn't do that.

 

[JimEverett]

Yep, and the answer to keeping the local health system from being overwhelmed is going to be different in New York City than it is in Atlanta than it is in Pensacola and so on.

But unfortunately we'll see hotspots and people are still going to die In numbers that will be higher than we want to accept even if we're successful in preventing the local systems from becoming overwhelmed. There's just no realistic way around that that I see.

Hopefully it's possible in most localities to strike a balance that allows more freedom for individuals and businesses while preventing the additional deaths that would inevitably come with an overwhelmed health system.

We are all going to get to see soon enough here.

Yeah, I agree.

Some places will do a better job than others. Hopefully, everyone learns from those But I do not see any realistic way around there being hotspots of infection and death

 

[Surviving Saint]

The debate will end up being do we wait until the healthcare systems are already overwhelmed before we shut them down again?

There is about a 10 day lag between shutting down and seeing a decrease in new cases. If the hospital is overwhelmed and still has 10 - 14 days of exponential growth to deal with it will be a terrible failure of leadership.

Deal with it now or deal with it later. Open everything back up. Time get herd immunity rolling and try to jump start the economy. This has become a political game now.

 

[Beach Friends]

Yeah, I agree.

Some places will do a better job than others. Hopefully, everyone learns from those But I do not see any realistic way around there being hotspots of infection and death

Well no, and I don't see any way around political leaders being blamed for every death that occurs after restrictions are lifted in their jurisdictions.
That is going to happen and we all know it.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Because you only want to see what confirms your bias.

I'm sure he is already being called an Uncle Tom in leftist circles. Or hell, probably the Georgia Democratic party is calling him that.

So, I'm genuinely curious. What leadership and results am I missing?

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Well no, and I don't see any way around political leaders being blamed for every death that occurs after restrictions are lifted in their jurisdictions.
That is going to happen and we all know it.

Well, to what extent would it be deserved if, let's say some counties/cities/states with similar demographics pursue a different strategy and get better results?

 

[Beach Friends]

So, I'm genuinely curious. What leadership and results am I missing?

It might help him to know what you are missing if you listed those you recognize.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

It might help him to know what you are missing if you listed those you recognize.

I'm not seeing any leadership. At all. He can say things but he can only get a very limited number of people to believe in him. He gets in the mud and he wrestles. It's entertaining, but not very inspiring, and from polling only works for a pretty limited section of the country.

For results, they seem sort of pedestrian. The economy was doing ok, but it wasn't any different than what was going on before, except debt increased. I guess if federal judges are big deal to you, that would be an area he's gotten results in. Other than that, from a numbers perspective I can't see anything that he's actually done.

So, I guess, it would probably make the most sense to talk to someone like Vernon Jones, which are the people who interest me the most. When you go against the expected grain, I find it more interesting.

 

[Humperdoo]

More Cali fun.

California man arrested 3 times in a day, given citations and released due coronavirus restrictions

A man in California was arrested three times over the course of 12 hours on Wednesday -- including for allegedly leading officers on a pursuit -- and given citations to go each time due to the statewide zero-bail policy due to the coronavirus outbreak, according to officials.

www.foxnews.com

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

I probably should have added, that on areas I could find agreement on with his priorities, I find his methods ineffective, but am still hoping some good comes out of it.

For example, I think he's right to put a priority on bad practices of China as a trade partner, but I find his method of just ramping up pressure to be fairly ineffective, but he might get something out of it, so I'll have to see.

Basically, it appears he only has one tool in his bag - and that is just trying to out pressure the other side. From the outside looking in, he seems very uncreative in his approach, and it looks like he views everything as a zero sum game. There's a fun negotiation class I took during my masters program, where one of the exercises - the optimal negotiation strategy was to give away all your raw material for free to the other company. Only 2 of us actually came to that conclusion, most people just try to get the maximum price for the material, and ended up with results far inferior to those of us who realized we should lose that particular part of the negotiation for a bigger gain elsewhere. I just can't imagine Trump coming up with that.

*yes, there was a stupid pat myself on the back reference in there, forgive me

 

[samiam5211]

Deal with it now or deal with it later. Open everything back up. Time get herd immunity rolling and try to jump start the economy. This has become a political game now.

The variable is how many lives are lost in the process.

The economy will recover, dead people will not.

The people mist invested in the current economy are the mist willing to let other people die.

This economy is dead anyway. Time to start over.

 

[bdb13]

I probably should have added, that on areas I could find agreement on with his priorities, I find his methods ineffective, but am still hoping some good comes out of it.

For example, I think he's right to put a priority on bad practices of China as a trade partner, but I find his method of just ramping up pressure to be fairly ineffective, but he might get something out of it, so I'll have to see.

Basically, it appears he only has one tool in his bag - and that is just trying to out pressure the other side. From the outside looking in, he seems very uncreative in his approach, and it looks like he views everything as a zero sum game. There's a fun negotiation class I took during my masters program, where one of the exercises - the optimal negotiation strategy was to give away all your raw material for free to the other company. Only 2 of us actually came to that conclusion, most people just try to get the maximum price for the material, and ended up with results far inferior to those of us who realized we should lose that particular part of the negotiation for a bigger gain elsewhere. I just can't imagine Trump coming up with that.

I don't even know if I necessarily have any kind of real problem with the way Trump has handled China (I don't know enough overall, I'd say) and I've never criticized him on China. I can see how someone can view Trump's handing of China as great leadership and that's fine.

I just found it funny more than anything that the guy in Georgia cited Trump's great leadership at a time when Trump's leadership during the coronavirus has been the thing I've seen questioned most by those not on the left.