All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (2 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[Saintamaniac]

For the last three days, my son has waited for the COVID-19 test results to come back so he can find out whether his wife is positive for the virus. She has a serious heart condition, so she would be considered very high risk. While waiting on the results of the test, I couldn't help thinking about the worst case scenario and the affects it would have on my son and their two daughters. Thankfully, they were told late this afternoon that the test came back negative.

The virus became more than statistics for our family this week.

I've lost 2 relatives and 2 friends to Covid-19. My MIL passed away (non Covid-19) and my wife was lucky enough to be with her only because she's a respiratory therapist. Imagine a loved one being taken to the ER and being told you can't go with them and given a number to call. Never thought I'd have to experience anything like that. It's been more than a stat for me and my family for some time now. The response to and handling of the virus has hardened my heart.

 

[stevo3]

Can you point to the science and data that support this viewpoint?

Here's an article on the data that shutting down schools was not based in science but in fear:

Children unlikely to transmit coronavirus, says study cited in PM's push to reopen schools

NSW report held up as Morrison government seeks return to classrooms across Australia despite warnings from teacher unions

www.theguardian.com

Children 'do transmit COVID-19' to adults, says researcher whose report was 'misunderstood' as evidence that kids cannot spread coronavirus

Alasdair Munro, co-author of a widely-shared review on children and the coronavirus, said the research was misinterpreted.

www.businessinsider.com

There were a couple of doctors from Bakersfield, CA that posted a video that showed data and science only to have it "De-bunked" because they were owners of an urgent care clinic, so somehow that discredits their findings. No actual data to disprove them however.

And then you have Sweden. Who never shut down. And hasn't had any mortality rate or overwhelming of their medical system to date.

What I'm saying is there isn't enough data to prove that the shutdown worked or that it would have gone differently otherwise. Maybe cities like New York, and New Orleans and other densely populated areas where people in the millions literally lived on top of one another needed something like this. Maybe.

But it's not a one-size fits all solution that will do here. This country will be much worse off because of this approach than had it just let the virus run it's course.

 

[The moose]

Here's an article on the data that shutting down schools was not based in science but in fear:

Children unlikely to transmit coronavirus, says study cited in PM's push to reopen schools

NSW report held up as Morrison government seeks return to classrooms across Australia despite warnings from teacher unions

www.theguardian.com

Children 'do transmit COVID-19' to adults, says researcher whose report was 'misunderstood' as evidence that kids cannot spread coronavirus

Alasdair Munro, co-author of a widely-shared review on children and the coronavirus, said the research was misinterpreted.

www.businessinsider.com

There were a couple of doctors from Bakersfield, CA that posted a video that showed data and science only to have it "De-bunked" because they were owners of an urgent care clinic, so somehow that discredits their findings. No actual data to disprove them however.

And then you have Sweden. Who never shut down. And hasn't had any mortality rate or overwhelming of their medical system to date.

What I'm saying is there isn't enough data to prove that the shutdown worked or that it would have gone differently otherwise. Maybe cities like New York, and New Orleans and other densely populated areas where people in the millions literally lived on top of one another needed something like this. Maybe.

But it's not a one-size fits all solution that will do here. This country will be much worse off because of this approach than had it just let the virus run it's course.

I for one am not buying any of the places that were cold as all get out handling the pandemic better than others.

When you look a Sweden or Iceland you have to also accept that they also did not have tourism helping the spread unlink other places.

Now February and March Sweden was cold as . Nobody was going there unlike Italy, or the states. Look at it this way New Orleans had more than a tenth of Sweden's entire population at Mardi gras. The airline travel was shut down globally long before people go to Sweden.

What crazy amounts of business travel does Sweden get?

You have to look at all factors.

Also the death in Sweden over fifty percent were the elderly. So yeah in that model they kill off the old.

Norway has 207 deaths. That is nothing and about what Sweden would have if they did not sacrifice people to keep stuff open.

Yeah they can sit down and have drinks or lunch so what.

Would you sacrifice your older family members to get Taco's?

 

[SystemShock]

....

Can you point to the science and data that support this viewpoint?

Case study done in Santa Clara, CA. by Stanford researchers.

Antibody study suggests Covid-19 could be far more prevalent in the Bay Area than official numbers suggest

Researchers from Stanford University shared the results of a large-scale community test, and estimate that between 2.5% and 4.2% of the population of Santa Clara County may have antibodies.

www.cnbc.com

They estimated that the spread of the virus could be 50 to 85 times more widespread than previously thought which, knowing very well how viruses spread and the simplicity of the test (check for antibodies), does seem sound and likely to pass pier review.

 

[dtc]

Leaked Western intel dossier reveals how China deceived the world about coronavirus

A new research dossier claims China intentionally hid or destroyed evidence regarding the novel coronavirus outbreak, and costs tens of thousands of lives in the process.

www.foxnews.com

Interesting. That reads like it was talking about the Trump administration.

Lying about numbers. Silencing doctors. Denying the scope and danger.

Oddly, it's not surprising that China would have done this, but it is pretty screwed up that our own President has done the same thing. And, of course, par for the course for Fox to provide an article that's fluffing the notion that Trump's response, despite his own intelligence providing information, was lacking due to China's secrecy.

 

[dtc]

Here's an article on the data that shutting down schools was not based in science but in fear:

Children unlikely to transmit coronavirus, says study cited in PM's push to reopen schools

NSW report held up as Morrison government seeks return to classrooms across Australia despite warnings from teacher unions

www.theguardian.com

Children 'do transmit COVID-19' to adults, says researcher whose report was 'misunderstood' as evidence that kids cannot spread coronavirus

Alasdair Munro, co-author of a widely-shared review on children and the coronavirus, said the research was misinterpreted.

www.businessinsider.com

There were a couple of doctors from Bakersfield, CA that posted a video that showed data and science only to have it "De-bunked" because they were owners of an urgent care clinic, so somehow that discredits their findings. No actual data to disprove them however.

And then you have Sweden. Who never shut down. And hasn't had any mortality rate or overwhelming of their medical system to date.

What I'm saying is there isn't enough data to prove that the shutdown worked or that it would have gone differently otherwise. Maybe cities like New York, and New Orleans and other densely populated areas where people in the millions literally lived on top of one another needed something like this. Maybe.

But it's not a one-size fits all solution that will do here. This country will be much worse off because of this approach than had it just let the virus run it's course.

Those two clowns were shut down because their video was full of statistical leaps of idiocy. And, there's plenty of data supporting the FACT that shutdown flattened the curve.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about or you're another who thinks losing 2million lives over the next few months would have somehow left the economy in better shape than what's been done. Of course, reopening now may just give you your desired effect, but that's left to be seen.

Spike due in 3, 2, 1.....

 

[RobF]

Here's an article on the data that shutting down schools was not based in science but in fear:

Children unlikely to transmit coronavirus, says study cited in PM's push to reopen schools

NSW report held up as Morrison government seeks return to classrooms across Australia despite warnings from teacher unions

www.theguardian.com

Children 'do transmit COVID-19' to adults, says researcher whose report was 'misunderstood' as evidence that kids cannot spread coronavirus

Alasdair Munro, co-author of a widely-shared review on children and the coronavirus, said the research was misinterpreted.

www.businessinsider.com

Did you mean to post that second link? Did you read it? Because it actually undermines the argument you're putting forward. E.g.

'However, German virologist Christian Drosten, director of the Institute of Virology at Berlin's Charite hospital, urged policymakers to exercise caution when looking at studies examining the effects of COVID-19 on children. He pointed out that the findings of a Dutch study, which was used as evidence that children do not play a big role in spreading COVID-19, were not statistically significant.​

​

According to his own research, Drosten said, children can carry as high levels of the coronavirus as adults. He and his colleagues warned "against an unlimited reopening of schools and kindergartens in the present situation."'​

And then you have Sweden. Who never shut down. And hasn't had any mortality rate or overwhelming of their medical system to date.

Measures Sweden has taken:

Banning gatherings over 50 people.
Banning visits to nursing homes.
Closing secondary schools and universities.

Individuals are expected to practice social distancing, work from home if possible (around half the population are doing that), avoid non-essential travel, not visit the elderly.

So the idea they've done nothing is false. But how is that going? Not well. Around six times more deaths per capita than neighbouring Norway and Finland, and they've had to gradually increase the restrictions as things have progressed.

 

[Humperdoo]

I agree with his assertion that we were already heading that way before the pandemic.

NY Times, MSNBC journalist warns fascism could come to US if coronavirus shutdowns wreck economy

A new Great Depression triggered by coronavirus shutdowns could lead to "fascism" in the United States, a New York Times columnist and MSNBC contributor warned Friday night.

www.foxnews.com

 

[cuddlemonkey]

....


Case study done in Santa Clara, CA. by Stanford researchers.

Antibody study suggests Covid-19 could be far more prevalent in the Bay Area than official numbers suggest

Researchers from Stanford University shared the results of a large-scale community test, and estimate that between 2.5% and 4.2% of the population of Santa Clara County may have antibodies.

www.cnbc.com

They estimated that the spread of the virus could be 50 to 85 times more widespread than previously thought which, knowing very well how viruses spread and the simplicity of the test (check for antibodies), does seem sound and likely to pass pier review.

This doesn't indicate that the shutdown failed to prevent the spread. It's still less than 5% of the county's population by their numbers and they've had a shelter in place order since 3-31.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Those two clowns were shut down because their video was full of statistical leaps of idiocy. And, there's plenty of data supporting the FACT that shutdown flattened the curve.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about or you're another who thinks losing 2million lives over the next few months would have somehow left the economy in better shape than what's been done. Of course, reopening now may just give you your desired effect, but that's left to be seen.

Spike due in 3, 2, 1.....

 

[Saintamaniac]

I agree with his assertion that we were already heading that way before the pandemic.

NY Times, MSNBC journalist warns fascism could come to US if coronavirus shutdowns wreck economy

A new Great Depression triggered by coronavirus shutdowns could lead to "fascism" in the United States, a New York Times columnist and MSNBC contributor warned Friday night.

www.foxnews.com

“When coronavirus broke out in China, people said this is China’s Chernobyl. It’s actually Donald Trump’s Chernobyl because there are some things you can’t lie and spin your way through -- above all, something like a virus. This is out of control – just as the Soviet government couldn’t lie its way through atomic particles going through the air in Ukraine 35 years ago," Stephens said on MSNBC.

I found this part of the article to be the most interesting because it could have been avoided. If Republicans had simply lived by what they claim to believe in, I simply don't believe that Trump would be able to continually lie about everything. Instead, they have gone along with every lie simply out of desire for power. McConnell and the Senate is largely responsible for allowing trump to continue with his march toward fascism in the US.

The last hope for the country is a swift change in leadership. The only way the response to this pandemic could be worst is if nothing had been done at all. Anyone would be better at this point. The shame of it is that so many people will have died needlessly because the response was so piss poor.

The Chernobyl comparison is apt it's almost like trump followed the Russian playbook of simply trying to lie his way through this pandemic. And now he is trying to pass the blame for his incompetence onto China. China lied and we believed them so it's their fault is what trump and his administration would have us all believe is a better excuse than his complete and utter incompetence and habitual lying. That's a bold strategy that might work with his true believers. Let's see how it works out.

 

[Beach Friends]

Again, from our very own Wisconsin. A teenage girl went to Florida with a group and when she returned home she began experiencing covid symptoms. She went for medical treatment, but she did not meet the criteria for a test. She was later admitted to the hospital, and she posted a photo of herself with an oxygen mask stating that she had the Covid. She was finally given a test, it came back negative but it is speculated that by the time she received the test the viral load was too low for a positive result. Her discharge papers indicated she likely had Covid.

The school system did not like her posting she had picked up the virus, so they contacted the police who paid her family a visit demanding that she remove the post and stating she was creating a public disturbance.

Folks, this is not China. It's not the UK. This type of authoritarianism is not going to be tolerated here in these United States.

Although the guy discussing the lawsuit that followed is a Canadian lawyer, he seems like a decent enough guy and does a good job of breaking it down:

 

[SystemShock]

My modest proposal is to stop giving attention to Twitter "philosophers".

 

[SystemShock]

This doesn't indicate that the shutdown failed to prevent the spread. It's still less than 5% of the county's population by their numbers and they've had a shelter in place order since 3-31.

Looks like I read that post sequence wrong. Rereading it, I'd disagree with the notion that the shutdown didn't stop the spread of the virus at some level. However, we haven't had a complete shutdown, so the virus more likely than not has continued spreading. And while the population of Santa Clara is a tiny portion of the country's population, I don't think it is substantially different from the rest of the country that a similar study in other parts of the country wouldn't yield similar results.

And while there is an argument as to how effective the shutdown has been, related to the shutdown and its effectiveness, here is an opinion piece from someone who looks to have credentials.

Coronavirus pandemic: We were caught unprepared. It is too late for shutdowns to save us

What we should do is to keep shutdowns short, keep the economy going and build our public health system for the pandemic.

www.usatoday.com

 

[Saintamaniac]

I agree with his assertion that we were already heading that way before the pandemic.

NY Times, MSNBC journalist warns fascism could come to US if coronavirus shutdowns wreck economy

A new Great Depression triggered by coronavirus shutdowns could lead to "fascism" in the United States, a New York Times columnist and MSNBC contributor warned Friday night.

www.foxnews.com

One more thing to add in regard to the article. My personal belief is the only thing that has kept the US from getting closer to fascism is the fact that the Democrats took back the House. If Republicans had control of the house, everything that has come to light about the trump administration would have been swept under the rug. In essence, we would be living in a fascist country right now with one party control with the ability to hide any wrong doing they saw fit.

 

[dtc]

Again, from our very own Wisconsin. A teenage girl went to Florida with a group and when she returned home she began experiencing covid symptoms. She went for medical treatment, but she did not meet the criteria for a test. She was later admitted to the hospital, and she posted a photo of herself with an oxygen mask stating that she had the Covid. She was finally given a test, it came back negative but it is speculated that by the time she received the test the viral load was too low for a positive result. Her discharge papers indicated she likely had Covid.

The school system did not like her posting she had picked up the virus, so they contacted the police who paid her family a visit demanding that she remove the post and stating she was creating a public disturbance.

Folks, this is not China. It's not the UK. This type of authoritarianism is not going to be tolerated here in these United States.

Although the guy discussing the lawsuit that followed is a Canadian lawyer, he seems like a decent enough guy and does a good job of breaking it down:

I think that's pretty stupid.

Now, tell us again what you thought about The POTUS giving bad medical advice about drugs and alluding to using bleach, light or disinfectant inside of the body in a way that stupid people might construe it as a suggestion?

 

[Intensesaint]

....


Case study done in Santa Clara, CA. by Stanford researchers.

Antibody study suggests Covid-19 could be far more prevalent in the Bay Area than official numbers suggest

Researchers from Stanford University shared the results of a large-scale community test, and estimate that between 2.5% and 4.2% of the population of Santa Clara County may have antibodies.

www.cnbc.com

They estimated that the spread of the virus could be 50 to 85 times more widespread than previously thought which, knowing very well how viruses spread and the simplicity of the test (check for antibodies), does seem sound and likely to pass pier review.

That report uses a bad word... antibody.

 

[FullMonte]

As far as saying the president *could* try and activate the guard and if the governor ordered them to stand down . . . it's already happened before.

President John F. Kennedy federalized the Alabama National Guard to force desegregation over the objections of Governor George Wallace. We all know how that turned out, right?

"Governor Wallace has refused to respect either the law or the authority of local officials. For his own personal and political reasons -- so that he may later charge Federal interference -- he is desperately anxious to have the Federal Government intervene in a situation in which we have no desire to intervene," Kennedy stated.

"Mr. Kennedy, consumed by his doubtful re-election, has taken complete control. The Kennedy forces are laying the predicate for the jailing of the governor of Alabama," Wallace said in a statement to the press.

Kennedy federalized National Guard to integrate Alabama public schools (Sept. 10, 1963)

President John F. Kennedy SEPTEMBER 10, 1963 -- President John F. Kennedy federalized the 17,000 member Alabama National Guard to allow black students to attend nine previously all-white schools in Birmingham and across the state."Governor Wallace has refused to respect...

www.al.com

Yeah, I know about that one. But, in that case, the legality was a little clearer, since the governor was not following the law. In this case, it's a murkier situation, since the federal law does specifically allow the president to activate the guard in case of "epidemic, or other serious public health emergency."