All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (2 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[Surviving Saint]

The variable is how many lives are lost in the process.

The economy will recover, dead people will not.

The people mist invested in the current economy are the mist willing to let other people die.

This economy is dead anyway. Time to start over.

Wear a mask.

Masks increase virus risk.

They can't even make up their minds on this

The stats on the death toll are misleading also.

Open everything back up.

The tyrant mayor in Chicago wants police to arrest people that break the rule on social distancing because they are trying to save lives. That idiot hasn't tried to save lives when every day they have multiple deaths due to inner city violence.

 

[samiam5211]

Wear a mask.

Masks increase virus risk.

They can't even make up their minds on this

The stats on the death toll are misleading also.

Open everything back up.

The tyrant mayor in Chicago wants police to arrest people that break the rule on social distancing because they are trying to save lives. That idiot hasn't tried to save lives when every day they have multiple deaths due to inner city violence.

We disagree on the facts. Discussion isn’t going to change that.

 

[dtc]

I can't speak to every instance, but if you look at the actual signs, you will see that swastikas are often used by people as part of a message that their political opponent is a nazi. That was clearly the case in the photo in this article.

It's like when the Bernie supporter showed up in counter protest to a rally carrying a huge swastika that had the names Trump and Pence on it. Unfortunately, some in the media ignored the message he was intending to send and simply reported, swastika at protest.

The woman with the slogan about work making you free is obviously a moron. Given the slogan's history, it doesn't even support her argument.

Yeah, the folks carrying the swastika with notes to a jewish governor are either supporting naziism or calling a jew a nazi. Either way, they're "conservatives" using racist and hateful imagery to make their point.

 

[Surviving Saint]

We disagree on the facts. Discussion isn’t going to change that.

What facts?

 

[samiam5211]

What facts?

No one credible ever said that masks make transmission of the virus worse. There were responsible people telling the public that it was more important for health care workers to have masks, and the general public should not wear masks because we needed to make sure there were enough for those who needed them.

I’m not interested in a link off. I can prove anything with the internet.

I’m not going to debate over facts, and I’m not wasting any time informing them willfully misinformed.

 

[Intensesaint]

I’m not interested in a link off. I can prove anything with the internet.

Defined as, I don't want to see evidence counter to my world view.

 

[Beach Friends]

Yeah, the folks carrying the swastika with notes to a jewish governor are either supporting naziism or calling a jew a nazi. Either way, they're "conservatives" using racist and hateful imagery to make their point.

Lots of assumptions there, but anyway I would focus on his hypocrisy. Last week, right after he spoke about how people, like he, would be remembered as heroes for invoking restrictions, he was asked if it was true that his wife had recently engaged in "non essential" travel when she took a trip to Florida. He called the question "reprehensible" and refused to answer.

The Chicago mayor was equally offended by questions about whether she had violated her own orders when she went to a hair stylist. Her excuse was that she was the face of the city. In other words, she is important.

Another Chicagoland politician, Barrack Obama, recently went to an otherwise closed golf course just days after his wife admonished us to stay at home unless leaving was essential.

"Restrictions for thee, but not for me," I guess.

 

[Surviving Saint]

No one credible ever said that masks make transmission of the virus worse. There were responsible people telling the public that it was more important for health care workers to have masks, and the general public should not wear masks because we needed to make sure there were enough for those who needed them.

I’m not interested in a link off. I can prove anything with the internet.

I’m not going to debate over facts, and I’m not wasting any time informing them willfully misinformed.

The surgeon General said improperly wearing a mask is worse for you.

Who and CDC both claims the general public shouldn't wear them.

Seems to me there are no credible experts on this virus and they are all just winging it. The facts change every week along with infection and death numbers.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Defined as, I don't want to see evidence counter to my world view.

Or just starting to realize the futility of it all. I clearly remember the arguments over the masks. The original guidance was that wearing a mask by the public will not help you much from getting it, and that it was more important for health care workers who knew how to wear the effective masks correctly to get it. That is still true. What's been added is that the general public should wear masks b/c there are more asymptomatic people and if you are sick and you wear a mask, you spread it slower.

That's how it's supposed to work. As you learn more information you adjust your recommendations. But it seems people don't want to deal with that, so they just say that nothing is real, no one knows anything so we should just do whatever we feel like b/c your guess is as good as mine.

 

[FullMonte]

Defined as, I don't want to see evidence counter to my world view.

I wanna see that evidence. Please provide a link to a respected medical professional saying that wearing a mask will increase your chances of catching the virus.

 

[Surviving Saint]

https://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax/article/960679?section=us&keywords=surgeon-general-adams-masks&year=2020&month=03&date=31&id=960679&oref=t.co

I wanna see that evidence. Please provide a link to a respected medical professional saying that wearing a mask will increase your chances of catching the virus.

 

[Beach Friends]

Or just starting to realize the futility of it all. I clearly remember the arguments over the masks. The original guidance was that wearing a mask by the public will not help you much from getting it, and that it was more important for health care workers who knew how to wear the effective masks correctly to get it. That is still true. What's been added is that the general public should wear masks b/c there are more asymptomatic people and if you are sick and you wear a mask, you spread it slower.

That's how it's supposed to work. As you learn more information you adjust your recommendations. But it seems people don't want to deal with that, so they just say that nothing is real, no one knows anything so we should just do whatever we feel like b/c your guess is as good as mine.

I agree that we should adapt as we learn more. We should take into account that the deaths are coming from nursing home patients in disproportionate numbers. We should be shoring up our defenses for nursing home patients while evaluating whether healthy younger people should really be staying home.

We should take note at the fact that New York City has been hit hard, while other parts of the nation have not. We should question whether restrictions that may be appropriate for NYC are really necessary for the rest of the nation.

The "safe" answer for politicians is to keep the restrictions in place, but is that answer really following the science?

If we wait until reopening is "surge proof," how long will that be? Will we do more harm than good with that gameplan? Is it even possible?

 

[Surviving Saint]

I agree that we should adapt as we learn more. We should take into account that the deaths are coming from nursing home patients in disproportionate numbers. We should be shoring up our defenses for nursing home patients while evaluating whether healthy younger people should really be staying home.

We should take note at the fact that New York City has been hit hard, while other parts of the nation have not. We should question whether restrictions that may be appropriate for NYC are really necessary for the rest of the nation.

The "safe" answer for politicians is to keep the restrictions in place, but is that answer really following the science?

If we wait until reopening is "surge proof," how long will that be? Will we do more harm than good with that gameplan? Is it even possible?

Because NYC has subways. Take them out of the picture and the flu is much deadlier. The rest of the country can go about business as usual.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Because NYC has subways. Take them out of the picture and the flu is much deadlier. The rest of the country can go about business as usual.

So, why do you believe that?

 

[RobF]

Or just starting to realize the futility of it all. I clearly remember the arguments over the masks. The original guidance was that wearing a mask by the public will not help you much from getting it, and that it was more important for health care workers who knew how to wear the effective masks correctly to get it. That is still true. What's been added is that the general public should wear masks b/c there are more asymptomatic people and if you are sick and you wear a mask, you spread it slower.

That's how it's supposed to work. As you learn more information you adjust your recommendations. But it seems people don't want to deal with that, so they just say that nothing is real, no one knows anything so we should just do whatever we feel like b/c your guess is as good as mine.

I know, right? It's incredibly frustrating to have people insisting they know what the 'experts' have recommended, and they're not getting it right. It's easy to argue the experts are wrong if you've somehow got the wrong end of the stick. But no amount of pointing at reality seems to help.

I'll still link to and summarise the WHO's actual advice on masks though. Because I already wrote it out for another forum, so, here: https://www.who.int/emergencies/dis...9/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks

The WHO advice is that wearing medical masks "is one of the prevention measures that can limit the spread of certain respiratory viral diseases, including COVID-19", but they caution that "the use of a mask alone is insufficient to provide an adequate level of protection, and other measures should also be adopted". They also note that there is limited evidence that healthy individuals wearing masks in households or among contacts of sick patients, or as attendees of mass gathering may be beneficial, but that there is currently (emphasis added) no evidence that wearing a mask by healthy persons in the wider community setting is beneficial as a preventive measure.

They go on to say medical masks should be reserved for health care workers, as there is the risk of it being counter-productive (creating a false sense of security leading to a reduction in practice of other essential measures such as hand hygiene and distancing, along with increasing touching of the face), and where there are supply problems exacerbates problems with the supply to health care workers.

They also note that "In some countries masks are worn in accordance with local customs or in accordance with advice by national authorities in the context of COVID-19. In these situations, best practices should be followed about how to wear, remove, and dispose of them, and for hand hygiene after removal."

And they also say "The use of masks made of other materials (e.g., cotton fabric), also known as nonmedical masks, in the community setting has not been well evaluated. There is no current evidence to make a recommendation for or against their use in this setting."

Summarising that as "healthy people should not wear masks", or "the general public should not wear masks" is just wrong. The actual advice is rational, evidence-based, and nuanced.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

The "safe" answer for politicians is to keep the restrictions in place, but is that answer really following the science?

So, I think it is, and based on your general participation, I infer that you believe we are not. If that is accurate, could you share what has led you to that conclusion?

We still have a highly contagious disease that has a significantly higher mortality rate than the flu.

If we wait until reopening is "surge proof," how long will that be? Will we do more harm than good with that gameplan? Is it even possible?

Well, I feel like we've had this discussion before. The answer that most public health professionals have given is we need to raise hospital capacity and testing capacity. So, it seems to me that you're energy would be more worthwhile focusing on getting results in those two areas.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

I just want to point out again, that the number of people who have been positively identified as dying from COVID-19 in a five week span is about 60,000 people. The number of people who are positively identified has having dying from the flu is typically 3,000 to 15,000 per year. The 20,000 to 60,000 number that is commonly cited from the CDC is based on a set of algorithms that represent their best guess (which is probably pretty good).

Comparing COVID-19 Deaths to Flu Deaths Is like Comparing Apples to Oranges

The former are actual numbers; the latter are inflated statistical estimates

blogs.scientificamerican.com

Anyway you slice the numbers, COVID-19 is significantly worse than the flu.

 

[Surviving Saint]

So, why do you believe that?

Because a subway is a petri dish. This virus is real but the infection and death rate are numbers are fugded for political reasons. We "flattened the curve" now its time to get people back to work. People are tired of staying home.

Has any of the tents and extra hospitals set up even been used. Nurses and Dr's are dancing on tik tok. Enough with the political BS. Open everything back up.