All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (8 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[Humperdoo]

Trump actually committed the acts he was accused of and somehow it's a witch hunt.

It's really not. It's headinthesand-itis.

I respectfully disagree.

 

[The moose]

OK, moose,

You lack sufficient knowledge to discuss such matters, Recommended reading:

Federal Acquisition Regulations (FAR)

FAR | Acquisition.GOV

www.acquisition.gov

Coronavirus-Related FAR

Coronavirus Acquisition-Related Information and Resources | Acquisition.GOV

www.acquisition.gov

Post what you know!

Don't post links.

Type where the swiped shirt goes and how much states and hospitals are being charged.

When a billionaire Robert Craft goes completely around his buddy Donald to get PPE to his state tells you tons.

When other republican govnerors go completely around your uncle to get testing supplies speaks volumes.

But let's ignore all that stuff.

Oh thanks for about three hundred PDFs

 

[RobF]

So basically, some people are arguing that:

Notion 1: China should not been unable to eliminate a novel and completely unknown virulent coronavirus before it spread anywhere else.

Notion 2: The USA, with advance warning and information, could not have been expected to stop the same coronavirus and it's not at all disastrous or a reflection of incompetence on the part of the administration that the US now has over 1 million cases and 60,000 deaths.

No. If China should have been able to eliminate it, then the USA has really botched their response. There's no way around that.

(This also goes for the UK response.)

That said, as can be seen from the fact that every nation (bar maybe NZ?) hasn't been able to eliminate it, it's wildly unrealistic to expect China to have done so without the advance warning and information that other nations had.

But it remains the fact that the US (and UK) botched their responses regardless, as can be seen by, y'know, looking at the cases, deaths, and most other nations on the planet.

 

[Dadsdream]

Post what you know!

Don't post links.

Type where the swiped shirt goes and how much states and hospitals are being charged.

When a billionaire Robert Craft goes completely around his buddy Donald to get PPE to his state tells you tons.

When other republican govnerors go completely around your uncle to get testing supplies speaks volumes.

But let's ignore all that stuff.

I rely on you to provide me the latest gossip and Trump-bashing conspiracy theories.

 

[The moose]

This is who is in charge.

I guess no photo op if your face is covered

 

[The moose]

I rely on you to provide me the latest gossip and Trump-bashing conspiracy theories.

Hey DD¡!!!!!!!!!


I will expect your posts of hundreds of PDFs rather than type what you know.

If you have quick feet I would imagine you would be great a Dodge ball if you are even 10% as good as dodging questions you could be the best ever.

Oh why was pence not wearing a mask?

Since he is the lead on the coronavirus he should know to wear a mask.

 

[Beach Friends]

He touted a cure that was unproven and is now being shown to be ineffective at best. He legitimately asked if government doctors were looking into sunlight and disinfectant as a cure. The latter coincided with multiple states reporting a spike in phone calls to poison control centers regarding exposure to Lysol, bleach, and other disinfectants.

That's surely worthy of criticism and even blame, right?

Actually, I think those are exactly the types of issues that are distractions.

HDQ may still prove to be an appropriate therapeutic - under the right circumstances. It seems that the overwhelming majority of people who are infected can simply recover at home and not need the drug. On the flip side, it seems that the way the drug acts may not be effective for patients who are in the most critical condition. But, let's not act as though Trump just made this up. At one time nearly 40% of physicians worldwide identified HDQ as their first pharmaceutical of choice for treating the disease.

You're right, he made an inquiry to the physicians. But, he did not say that people should ingest it.

I wish Trump was much more judicious with his words. He needs to be, if for no other reason that he knows there is a media ready to pounce and report in bad faith. He should actually be saying for little in these briefings.

 

[dtc]

I respectfully disagree.

That's fine and all, but it's not an opinion. He said it out loud for the world to see. The question isn't whether he did it, but should it be impeachable.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Actually, I think those are exactly the types of issues that are distractions.

HDQ may still prove to be an appropriate therapeutic - under the right circumstances. It seems that the overwhelming majority of people who are infected can simply recover at home and not need the drug. On the flip side, it seems that the way the drug acts may not be effective for patients who are in the most critical condition. But, let's not act as though Trump just made this up. At one time nearly 40% of physicians worldwide identified HDQ as their first pharmaceutical of choice for treating the disease.

You're right, he made an inquiry to the physicians. But, he did not say that people should ingest it.

I wish Trump was much more judicious with his words. He needs to be, if for no other reason that he knows there is a media ready to pounce and report in bad faith. He should actually be saying for little in these briefings.

Love the goalpost shifting. It's easy to agree that it's necessary to levy legitimate criticisms when you just claim none of the criticism is legitimate.

“So, supposing we hit the body with a tremendous — whether it's ultraviolet or just very powerful light — and I think you said that hasn't been checked but you're going to test it,” Trump said then. “And then I said, supposing you brought the light inside of the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you’re going to test that too. Sounds interesting.”

“I see the disinfectant — where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?” he asked at the briefing.

Those are his own words. You're going to tell me that you see criticism of this as a distraction and not legitimate criticism?

 

[Beach Friends]

So basically, some people are arguing that:

Notion 1: China should not been unable to eliminate a novel and completely unknown virulent coronavirus before it spread anywhere else.

Notion 2: The USA, with advance warning and information, could not have been expected to stop the same coronavirus and it's not at all disastrous or a reflection of incompetence on the part of the administration that the US now has over 1 million cases and 60,000 deaths.

No. If China should have been able to eliminate it, then the USA has really botched their response. There's no way around that.

(This also goes for the UK response.)

That said, as can be seen from the fact that every nation (bar maybe NZ?) hasn't been able to eliminate it, it's wildly unrealistic to expect China to have done so without the advance warning and information that other nations had.

But it remains the fact that the US (and UK) botched their responses regardless, as can be seen by, y'know, looking at the cases, deaths, and most other nations on the planet.

I think you are overlooking a lot of the CCP's actions, such as underreporting infections, lying about whether there was solid evidence that the disease was communicable from human to human, arresting doctors who were sounding the alarm early on, they were faster to restrict internal travel from Wuhan than they were international travel.

Really, there is no doubt that China was far less transparent than they should have been with the rest of the world. The list of bad deeds will continue to grow as we learn more.

 

[dtc]

I think you are overlooking a lot of the CCP's actions, such as underreporting infections, lying about whether there was solid evidence that the disease was communicable from human to human, arresting doctors who were sounding the alarm early on, they were faster to restrict internal travel from Wuhan than they were international travel.

Really, there is no doubt that China was far less transparent than they should have been with the rest of the world. The list of bad deeds will continue to grow as we learn more.

Sure. All of that may be 100% true or worse, but that doesn't excuse the ignorance and stupidity of this administration to have not been better aware. My god, man, we had an agency set to do just that and they were fired because obama did it.

 

[RobF]

I think you are overlooking ...

And you'd be wrong. Obviously so. None of those assertions change the point, even if they weren't inaccurate.

You're still fundamentally arguing that China should have done things with no prior notice and no prior information that other nations - very much including the US - failed to do with far more notice and information. No amount of 'but China' is going to get away from that.

Discussing, and learning, from China's actions, good and bad, is a reasonable thing to do. But repeatedly trying to make it the focus of the discussion, avoiding points made to reiterate partisan talking points, while the pandemic is ongoing and the response continues to be inadequate in our own nations, is not.

The fact is, the USA, like the UK, had more than enough information, much of it provided by Chinese researchers, to act appropriately right from the start. They failed to do so. The responsibility for that stops with Trump.

The pandemic is happening right now. The administration's actions continue to be inadequate right now. That's what's most relevant right now. Deconstructing China's early response for partisan political reasons is a sideshow.

 

[The moose]

I love the new dog whistle of referring to China as the CCP!

Yep let's get a commie jab in with your China virus.


The sad thing here is China is just about as far from a true commie country as the good old USA is from a true democracy.

Be sure to get your China jabs in however.

 

[Saintamaniac]

I respectfully disagree.

I don't understand how someone could "respectfully disagree" with something that the is as clear as black and white and more importantly in writing and recorded. IMO, you are making a choice to deny something simply because you don't agree with it. It's infuriating that people can't even acknowledge something that is undeniable. I mean, you were sick and posted about how sick you were and everyone took it on face value without ever having anything but your word. You'd be pretty pissed if the response had been "I respectfully disagree" that you were sick.

Trump downplayed this disease from the start until the deaths piling up couldn't simply be lied away. And now he and his administration are trotting out the chewbacca defense to distract the public from his abject failures. It's effects on people are even evident here where instead of talking about the virus, the response to the virus and the impact it has had on every aspect of normal life, there are several pages of back and forth on whether what the virus is called is racist or not.

Think about that. We have a virus that is easily transmitted to others, kills 1-2% of the people who get it, has caused the collapse of our economy and there is currently no cure. All the while the guy running the country has been shown to be completely incompetent, lies constantly and withholds needed supplies from states whose governors refuse to kiss his arse. On top of that, there are people here who fully defend this jackass.

No one should be trying to defend this. No one. This was a train wreck in slow motion and everyone saw it coming. Instead of acting, they tried to convince people that what they were seeing wasn't really happening.

 

[Beach Friends]

And you'd be wrong. Obviously so. None of those assertions change the point, even if they weren't inaccurate.

You're still fundamentally arguing that China should have done things with no prior notice and no prior information that other nations - very much including the US - failed to do with far more notice and information. No amount of 'but China' is going to get away from that.

Discussing, and learning, from China's actions, good and bad, is a reasonable thing to do. But repeatedly trying to make it the focus of the discussion, avoiding points made to reiterate partisan talking points, while the pandemic is ongoing and the response continues to be inadequate in our own nations, is not.

The fact is, the USA, like the UK, had more than enough information, much of it provided by Chinese researchers, to act appropriately right from the start. They failed to do so. The responsibility for that stops with Trump.

The pandemic is happening right now. The administration's actions continue to be inadequate right now. That's what's most relevant right now. Deconstructing China's early response for partisan political reasons is a sideshow.

This really doesn't go to the question you really presented, which I understand was essentially how can China be blamed for failing to stop the virus at its origin when Western nations were not able to stop it in there countries.

It's actually a foolish question. Obviously it is more efficient to contain the virus in it's original location than once it has spread throughout the globe and is approaching from multiple directions. I have told you some of the ways China failed - and it was simply negligence on their part. Continue on with your 'but Trump" if you like, if China doesn't make some changes we will likely face yet another virus from there in a few years.

Hopefully, if that happens, other nations would have learned from their own failures in this instance. But, I would prefer that we are not so self loathing that we are incapable of uniting to pressure China to take steps everyone agrees should be take so that we can reduce that risk.

 

[Richard]

Richard, there are outbreaks all over the world. Are the outbreaks everywhere Trump's fault?

Of course not, but regardless of where you look in the world there is a common source - China.

I actually see those using diversionary tactics as thosr who want to say, 'but Trump," everytime China is brought up.

I think it is painfully obvious that the United States would be facing this crisis, just like the rest of the world is, regardless of who the POTUS was.

On the other hand, if China was governed by a liberal, transparent, and responsible government the virus may have very well been contained or never started in the first instance.

If you want to make legitimate criticisms of the Trump administration I have no issue with that. I think it is even necessary going forward (although I think our nation, especially the House of Representatives, is so fragmented that it is going to be difficult to analyze lessons learned in an efficient, meaningful way.)

We are in complete agreement that China acted irresponsibly and I haven't stated otherwise. But the attention given China's response is oversized in relation to the events that followed. Knowing the source only provides so much information and almost no satisfaction.

I also didn't say everything was Trump's fault. I did say that the attempt to focus attention and blame onto China and their response is an effort to distract people from the Trump administrations actions since the outbreak began. The point being that if they can keep people's attention focused on the boogeyman of China, then maybe they won't be as apt to pay any mind to the actions of their government. I believe it's a poor strategy. But by all means, continue to bring up China as if it will make any difference in the lives of people trying to cope with this crisis.

 

[Beach Friends]

We are in complete agreement than China acted irresponsibly and I haven't stated otherwise. But the attention given China's response is oversized in relation to the events that followed. Knowing the source only provides so much information and almost no satisfaction.

I also didn't say everything was Trump's fault. I did say that the attempt to focus attention and blame onto China and their response is an effort to distract people from the Trump administrations actions since the outbreak began. The point being that if they can keep people's attention focused on the boogeyman of China, then maybe they won't be as apt to pay any mind to the actions of their government. I believe it's a poor strategy. But by all means, continue to bring up China as if it will make any difference in the lives of people trying to cope with this crisis.

I would hardly agree that China is a "boogeyman," and referring to them like that looks like downplaying to me.

 

[Dragon]

This really doesn't go to the question you really presented, which I understand was essentially how can China be blamed for failing to stop the virus at its origin when Western nations were not able to stop it in there countries.

It's actually a foolish question. Obviously it is more efficient to contain the virus in it's original location than once it has spread throughout the globe and is approaching from multiple directions. I have told you some of the ways China failed - and it was simply negligence on their part. Continue on with your 'but Trump" if you like, if China doesn't make some changes we will likely face yet another virus from there in a few years.

Hopefully, if that happens, other nations would have learned from their own failures in this instance. But, I would prefer that we are not so self loathing that we are incapable of uniting to pressure China to take steps everyone agrees should be take so that we can reduce that risk.

This is a brand new virus and even right now we're learning more and more about how it spreads and how it kills people. It is only within the last month that researches have finally discovered that asymptomatic infections are the major factor when dealing with this virus. EVERYONE is still learning and yet you expected that China knew enough about it in december/january to put a stop to it?

The US Did however have more time to proper prepare for the consequenses of this and chose not to. The curent administration chose not to listen to the experts warning that this could be bad and chose to downplay the risk and accusing the press of spreading unnecessary panic in order to hurt Trumps chances of reelection. 26K deaths later and the administration take no responsibilty for the outcome and blames everyone else.

Then there is the wet market issue in China

Basically this could happen everywhere where people hunt wild animals for meat. It has happened in Africa and Asia and could happen in the US or Europe as well. Deer, Rabits, wild boars and other types of wild animals can also carry different diseases, luckily these so far cannot spread from human to human, but there are not guarantie that that wont change. So the next epidemic could start in Europe somewhere or the US. And there will be another one after this. I just hope we have learned our lesson and will be better prepared for the next.