All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (2 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[TheRealTruth]

I love the new dog whistle of referring to China as the CCP!

Yep let's get a commie jab in with your China virus.


The sad thing here is China is just about as far from a true commie country as the good old USA is from a true democracy.

Be sure to get your China jabs in however.

Isn't it the Chinese Communist Party? How is it a jab? That is what they call their ruling political party?

 

[dtc]

This really doesn't go to the question you really presented, which I understand was essentially how can China be blamed for failing to stop the virus at its origin when Western nations were not able to stop it in there countries.

It's actually a foolish question. Obviously it is more efficient to contain the virus in it's original location than once it has spread throughout the globe and is approaching from multiple directions. I have told you some of the ways China failed - and it was simply negligence on their part. Continue on with your 'but Trump" if you like, if China doesn't make some changes we will likely face yet another virus from there in a few years.

Hopefully, if that happens, other nations would have learned from their own failures in this instance. But, I would prefer that we are not so self loathing that we are incapable of uniting to pressure China to take steps everyone agrees should be take so that we can reduce that risk.

Here's the thing, Beach. If this were to happen again while Trump was president, we all know what would happen. He hasn't learned a single lesson in his life except that he can lie, blame others and punch back. It's been his MO for 50 years and it's not going to change. Armed with that knowledge, we can be reasonably certain that if this exact thing were to happen again, he'd do nothing differently. Other countries would react differently, but unless we elect a competent person with some sort of conscience, we are screwed and literally dying because of it.

 

[dtc]

This is a brand new virus and even right now we're learning more and more about how it spreads and how it kills people. It is only within the last month that researches have finally discovered that asymptomatic infections are the major factor when dealing with this virus. EVERYONE is still learning and yet you expected that China knew enough about it in december/january to put a stop to it?

The US Did however have more time to proper prepare for the consequenses of this and chose not to. The curent administration chose not to listen to the experts warning that this could be bad and chose to downplay the risk and accusing the press of spreading unnecessary panic in order to hurt Trumps chances of reelection. 26K deaths later and the administration take no responsibilty for the outcome and blames everyone else.

Then there is the wet market issue in China

Basically this could happen everywhere where people hunt wild animals for meat. It has happened in Africa and Asia and could happen in the US or Europe as well. Deer, Rabits, wild boars and other types of wild animals can also carry different diseases, luckily these so far cannot spread from human to human, but there are not guarantie that that wont change. So the next epidemic could start in Europe somewhere or the US. And there will be another one after this. I just hope we have learned our lesson and will be better prepared for the next.

57,000 are dead as of today.

The rest was golden.

 

[Beach Friends]

This is a brand new virus and even right now we're learning more and more about how it spreads and how it kills people. It is only within the last month that researches have finally discovered that asymptomatic infections are the major factor when dealing with this virus. EVERYONE is still learning and yet you expected that China knew enough about it in december/january to put a stop to it?

The US Did however have more time to proper prepare for the consequenses of this and chose not to. The curent administration chose not to listen to the experts warning that this could be bad and chose to downplay the risk and accusing the press of spreading unnecessary panic in order to hurt Trumps chances of reelection. 26K deaths later and the administration take no responsibilty for the outcome and blames everyone else.

Then there is the wet market issue in China

Basically this could happen everywhere where people hunt wild animals for meat. It has happened in Africa and Asia and could happen in the US or Europe as well. Deer, Rabits, wild boars and other types of wild animals can also carry different diseases, luckily these so far cannot spread from human to human, but there are not guarantie that that wont change. So the next epidemic could start in Europe somewhere or the US. And there will be another one after this. I just hope we have learned our lesson and will be better prepared for the next.

I think it's a bad idea to just shrug this off as if because it theoretically could happen anywhere, that the risks are the same.

China is notorious for having few, if any, laws about the ethical treatment of animals. These "wild" animals are raised under horrible conditions, shipped with various species stacked on top of each other, then stored similarly until they are butchered on the spot. All of this leads to, among other things, highly stressed animals with weakened immune systems in close proximity to each other and humans. And let's not forget the bats - as I said previously, they are especially dangerous because they are (like us) mammals and the live on top of each other in the thousands.

Yes, there are other wet markets around the world that present similar dangers. No one is saying those are not a problem.

But, the reality is that China's population lives in dense areas so that there is an opportunity for outbreaks to spread very quickly.

The risk presented by harvesting a single wild deer or boar in their natural habitats is not the same as presented by these markets.

 

[Richard]

I would hardly agree that China is a "boogeyman," and referring to them like that looks like downplaying to me.

China may or may not be an actual boogeyman, but the statement was that the administration is seeking to paint China as one to deflect attention from its own actions. In other words, the administration believes that if China is shown to be the one to blame, Americans will see the Chinese as the bad guys and won't pay as much attention to its own shortcomings. No downplaying was implied.

 

[dtc]

I think it's a bad idea to just shrug this off as if because it theoretically could happen anywhere, that the risks are the same.

China is notorious for having few, if any, laws about the ethical treatment of animals. These "wild" animals are raised under horrible conditions, shipped with various species stacked on top of each other, then stored similarly until they are butchered on the spot. All of this leads to, among other things, highly stressed animals with weakened immune systems in close proximity to each other and humans. And let's not forget the bats - as I said previously, they are especially dangerous because they are (like us) mammals and the live on top of each other in the thousands.

Yes, there are other wet markets around the world that present similar dangers. No one is saying those are not a problem.

But, the reality is that China's population lives in dense areas so that there is an opportunity for outbreaks to spread very quickly.

The risk presented by harvesting a single wild deer or boar in their natural habitats is not the same as presented by these markets.

I'm not trying to really be a DB with what I'm about to say, so realize it's partly tongue in cheek, but what in the world happened to you?

Unless I'm missing it, you're anti-regulation. You don't want the quarantine to continue. You don't want gun laws. You sure as hell don't want anything to do with polite discourse if it can be framed as PC so forgive me when I choke on my beer as you talk about a lack of government regulation.

I assumed and I'm fully aware what assume means and willing to wear that label, but aren't you the last person on the planet who should be championing regulatory government?

 

[Beach Friends]

China may or may not be an actual boogeyman, but the statement was that the administration is seeking to paint China as one to deflect attention from its own actions. In other words, the administration believes that if China is shown to be the one to blame, Americans will see the Chinese as the bad guys and won't pay as much attention to its own shortcomings. No downplaying was implied.

I didn't recognize you were speaking about the administration as opposed to people on this board. I even went back and looked and the post and I still felt it read like the latter, in particular when you suggested that I keep talking about China "by all means...."

 

[Beach Friends]

I'm not trying to really be a DB with what I'm about to say, so realize it's partly tongue in cheek, but what in the world happened to you?

Unless I'm missing it, you're anti-regulation. You don't want the quarantine to continue. You don't want gun laws. You sure as hell don't want anything to do with polite discourse if it can be framed as PC so forgive me when I choke on my beer as you talk about a lack of government regulation.

I assumed and I'm fully aware what assume means and willing to wear that label, but aren't you the last person on the planet who should be championing regulatory government?

I am against government regulation that is not rationally related to a compelling governmental interest. How much should it be scrutinized? Depends on a lot of factors, including the individual liberty involved, whether there is a less restrictive means, etc.

 

[Richard]

I didn't recognize you were speaking about the administration as opposed to people on this board. I even went back and looked and the post and I still felt it read like the latter, in particular when you suggested that I keep talking about China "by all means...."

If there is any doubt who I was referring to, go back to my original reply and you will see I was speaking of the administrations efforts to deflect. Unless the strategy was devised by someone on this board, I don't know how you could take that from my comments.

 

[dtc]

I am against government regulation that is not rationally related to a compelling governmental interest. How much should it be scrutinized? Depends on a lot of factors, including the individual liberty involved, whether there is a less restrictive means, etc.

So, help me follow this.

You think we should be able to go to bars and restaurants and get haircuts right now because it is constitutionally guaranteed freedom, but have no problem were the Chinese to tell us our live seafood markets were dangerous?

You think gun restrictions are an invasion into our personal rights, but have no issue with the government telling us we can't eat pork because there's a new strain of potentially harmful trichinosis?

Pollution from unregulated smoke stacks are anathema to you and not a compelling governmental interest, right?

 

[The moose]

Isn't it the Chinese Communist Party? How is it a jab? That is what they call their ruling political party?

That is the party in power. Not the country. That would be like calling us the GOP. Considering the ruling party here is the republicans.

The country is People's Republic of China.

 

[Heathen]

Again, it is helpful to appreciate how the term "Wuhan virus" came to be a naughty term. Our media routinely used that term until the POTUS used it and the CCP called it "racist."

The POTUS uses dog whistles because he knows it resonates with a lot of the base. There have been many, many asian people that have dealt with people attacking them in public places simply because they happen to be Asian-American and the origin of the virus was in Asia. I have a few friends who can tell that story.

Viruses have been known by their origin for a long time. This is not a new practice.

Sure. But the insistence on parroting the 'asian/china/chinese' virus, even when nobody calls it that, is a pretty obvious sign someone is fishing for bites. Someone knows it aggravates a sect, so they push to make it a thing. Come on, we all know how trolls operate.

It is also true that this is not the first time China has used it's influence to control speech in the West. You may recall they did the same thing with the NBA about Hong Kong. They have influence over Hollywood who wants to stay in good favor so that they can peddle their products there.

China also knows that if they cry "racist" they will get the backing of a small, but very loud, portion of the American public that will unthinkingly rally around that flag.

I really don't think people in China care that much about our everyday red vs blue scuffles over what may or may not be politically correct.

I don't think that refusing to do China's bidding, or to abide by the wished of those who have fallen for that, is unreasonable.
Personally, I feel a duty to oppose the CCP's efforts.

So calling it the 'coronavirus' is doing the bidding of the Chinese? Unless you subscribe to the Chinese conspiracy theories, I don't think there is really much here to work with. There is no evidence that there is biological warfare here.

It's not racist. There are Chinese people here in my neighborhood who I admire very much. They are hard working, kind and generous. I have helped them and every time I have they have found ways to go well beyond what was required to repay the favor.

BTW, I don't think it is possible to dislike the CCP more than they do.

That's great. I don't feel the need to caricature the virus by nationality to try to get a memo out. As I mentioned the examples of my friends being verbally attacked by folks out in public, it's pointless and only spreads fear and irrational paranoia. That's not being patriotic. It isn't a thing, why make it a thing? Who does it help? I don't think anyone here is a pawn to China because they aren't making it a race/nationality thing. It'd be different if we all had our head in the sand because of some evil plot by the Chinese to spread this virus. As mentioned, there's no evidence of that, so we need to work as rationally as we can with what we have.

 

[Beach Friends]

The POTUS uses dog whistles because he knows it resonates with a lot of the base. There have been many, many asian people that have dealt with people attacking them in public places simply because they happen to be Asian-American and the origin of the virus was in Asia. I have a few friends who can tell that story.




Sure. But the insistence on parroting the 'asian/china/chinese' virus, even when nobody calls it that, is a pretty obvious sign someone is fishing for bites. Someone knows it aggravates a sect, so they push to make it a thing. Come on, we all know how trolls operate.



I really don't think people in China care that much about our everyday red vs blue scuffles over what may or may not be politically correct.



So calling it the 'coronavirus' is doing the bidding of the Chinese? Unless you subscribe to the Chinese conspiracy theories, I don't think there is really much here to work with. There is no evidence that there is biological warfare here.



That's great. I don't feel the need to caricature the virus by nationality to try to get a memo out. As I mentioned the examples of my friends being verbally attacked by folks out in public, it's pointless and only spreads fear and irrational paranoia. That's not being patriotic. It isn't a thing, why make it a thing? Who does it help? I don't think anyone here is a pawn to China because they aren't making it a race/nationality thing. It'd be different if we all had our head in the sand because of some evil plot by the Chinese to spread this virus. As mentioned, there's no evidence of that, so we need to work as rationally as we can with what we have.

I don't know, maybe you are right.


Kidding!

We just see things differently.

I don't anyone to forget. I want my grandkids to learn in school that you cant trust the CCP or any authoritarian regime.

I want them to learn how some Governor in MI tried to tell people that because of a virus unleashed by China they could not buy tomato seeds or ride in a boat - and the people said, Hell no.

I want my grandkids to read 1984 and understand that if was meant as a warning, not an instructional manual.

 

[dtc]

I don't know, maybe you are right.


Kidding!

We just see things differently.

I don't anyone to forget. I want my grandkids to learn in school that you cant trust the CCP or any authoritarian regime.

I want them to learn how some Governor in MI tried to tell people that because of a virus unleashed by China they could not buy tomato seeds or ride in a boat - and the people said, Hell no.

I want my grandkids to read 1984 and understand that if was meant as a warning, not an instructional manual.

I want my grandkids to live and I also want them to know that if you vote for a lying, racist dude who spends more time in a tanning bed than the office to which he was elected, you get a shirtty government.

 

[not2rich]

Some of BF's best friends are Chinese. How dare anyone question his motivations.

 

[Sledge Hammer]

Exactly.

Blaming China for being dishonest or lying is a good way they think they can overcome the fact that Trump and Bolton shut down the operation in place to deal with the fact that our enemy, China, is dishonest and likely to have this happen.

Calling it the "China" or "Wuhan" virus is not only slightly racist, but also xenophobic and plays to the base, but it's also another way to protect Trump from the weight of blame for inaction and inattention when this was brought to his attention last fall.

It's the same thing now that he's backed off his unitary authority to "open up" the economy and now leaves the responsibility of what to do on the governors. Topped with a helping of refutation for the idiot in Georgia, Trump is now straddling the line of being on the side of opening now without restriction vs a continued quarantine. In so doing, he can later blame the governor and his minions will parrot the fact that he disagreed.

It's his MO. Some see it and others ignore it, but it's there.

I do think this whole debate about racism/xenophobia is just a pure distraction. And a few posters are pretending that Andrus didn't post this yesterday.

I will say this: You are all well aware of when you are attempting to get under the oppositions skin, and which buzzwords, terms, acronyms or phrases trigger a negative reaction from the opposition. Thinking that you are being clever injecting such terms into the discussions knowing that you are going to get a rise out of the opposition, and then acting either unaware or oblivious to the reasons for the subsequent backlash isn't fooling anyone. You all know exactly what you are doing. I strongly suggest that you all avoid using them.

I guess he didn't strongly suggest enough. A few of you just can't take the hint.

There are far bigger fish to fry at this moment than what we call this pandemic. This is just a distraction to avoid a more unified response from the general public; backlash at the poor Federal Response at the beginning of this, the mistakes in test kits that ruined any chance of early containment, the current scope of testing - seemingly being fixed soon - the lack of preparation, and now multiple states having real issues processing Unemployment benefits.

I think someone posted an NPR article about the rise of Political Hobby-ism. That people are more interested in arguing about politics than actually building a consensus, coming up with a policy that would benefit folks, or actual arguing the give and take to achieve a political goal. It's more about scoring points in a game that doesn't do anything for anyone.

This pandemic is providing the public with a rare chance to seemingly all experience the same problems. We should be using this opportunity to build some consensus that could take us into the next 100 years.

 

[Saintamaniac]

This pandemic is providing the public with a rare chance to seemingly all experience the same problems. We should be using this opportunity to build some consensus that could take us into the next 100 years.

Exactly how do you go about building a consensus with people who actually deny reality? I don't mean things that are debatable. I mean things that are empirically shown to be true. We KNOW this virus is easily spread. We KNOW this virus kills people. Yet there are people who continually ignore facts to believe a habitual liar even to the point of risking infection and death. That is stupid and a good many Americans care not to attempt to build a consensus with stupid people.

 

[wardorican]

Richard, there are outbreaks all over the world. Are the outbreaks everywhere Trump's fault?

Of course not, but regardless of where you look in the world there is a common source - China.

I actually see those using diversionary tactics as thosr who want to say, 'but Trump," everytime China is brought up.

I think it is painfully obvious that the United States would be facing this crisis, just like the rest of the world is, regardless of who the POTUS was.

On the other hand, if China was governed by a liberal, transparent, and responsible government the virus may have very well been contained or never started in the first instance.

If you want to make legitimate criticisms of the Trump administration I have no issue with that. I think it is even necessary going forward (although I think our nation, especially the House of Representatives, is so fragmented that it is going to be difficult to analyze lessons learned in an efficient, meaningful way.)

Why not both?

We can blame the Chinese response, but we can also blame the US response. There was adequate time. There were multiple fumbles. Even now, public messaging is all over the place. The people I interact with who watch more news, but think less, are all over the place on this.

He is an awful spokesman and rambles far too much. They are doing some good things now, but his messaging sucks, and he causes problems because of it.