All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (6 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[N.O.Bronco]

That’s a tad broad. I am not a raging anything, let alone Nationalist.

It’s also funny you state that those folks run away, when most on here that are ‘left’ would be the poster child of running away if in the real world, and not behind the anonymity and safety of their screens.

It’s so odd to me as the only bigoted and hateful people I encounter, are here. I’m friends with people who don’t agree with me politically or socially, many of them, and they don’t carry themselves as most of you do. For which I’m thankful.

The world doesn’t need more bigoted hate and vitriol. Needs more love, compassion, empathy and tolerance.

Lastly and only online, the folks I see constantly ‘raging’ are people on the left. Seem to be way less tolerant of opposing views

Case and point:

Like if a person is constantly quick to avoid addressing the substance of another’s post and re-routing toward ad hominems, guilt by association, low-level trolling, empirical avoidance, habitually avoiding the high hanging fruit in a conversation, and constantly committing logical inconsistencies without a sense of shame.

 

[Humperdoo]

Case and point:

Like if a person is constantly quick to avoid addressing the substance of another’s post and re-routing toward ad hominems, guilt by association, low-level trolling, empirical avoidance, habitually avoiding the high hanging fruit in a conversation, and constantly committing logical inconsistencies without a sense of shame.

Do you live to argue? Have you ever conceded a point that didn’t fit your lens on life views?
The poster made a broad assertion and I responded. With my opinion. Why is one ok and not the other? And that’s rhetorical, I’m uninterested in your response to that, as I am uninterested in trying to prove anything to you.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Lastly and only online, the folks I see constantly ‘raging’ are people on the left. Seem to be way less tolerant of opposing views

So, that seems a bit weird to me - have you done an empirical study on this? Not that I'm doubting that there are intolerant people on the left, but that you don't find it on the right. Or that you find it much more prevalent on the left. This seems like an example of negativity bias. Would you be interested in trying to do an empirical study on this?

I wonder if we could do an internet scrape of all internet comments from the last 7 years, and then did a sentiment analysis on that - if we would find a significant difference in the way you are describing. How confident are you in your assessment? Would you be willing to bet anything of substantial value on that? (I'm not asking for a real bet, b/c I have no way of actually performing the experiment outside of a coding effort that would not be simple for me to do, I'm trying to gauge your confidence level on this.)

 

[N.O.Bronco]

I did not and have not personally attacked you. Lol.
Your projection is strong. I PM’d you as it was the right way to engage a man that called me a liar. I kept it private, but yet you put it out here. Not surprising to me. Do you enjoy when someone calls you a liar? You have interjected ad hominem attacks towards me repeatedly. And worry not about SR, I logged out of there for the last time when I got silenced for my opinion in the COVID thread.

I don’t need for you or anyone else to agree with me on all things, I’m not a hateful bigot. Believe what you will and be and stay safe and well. I can tell that you’d be a person in the real world that I’d not at all like. And that’s ok. Be you. I’ll be me.

You went private by your own words because mods kicked you out of the thread for personally attacking people and continual improper engagement after people, myself included, pointed out the flaws in your argument and the holes in your sources.. So you went to PM, clearly, to get in a few Additional personal shots.

You are not owed anything from that exchange my friend, let alone anonymity. Especially when it was as disrespectful as it was and as disrespectful as you continue to be.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Just because that other guy was all worked.up doesn't mean you should assume he actually had a valid point.

A month or so ago there was a fear, based on some outrageous predictions, that there would be a shortage of ventilators. Those models were, as we now know, wrong.

There has been no shortage of ventilators, and we have seen Washington state send excess ventilators to New York and we have seen New York send excess ventilators to other states.

Meanwhile, not only have we have been adding ventilators to the stockpile but there is a growing body of evidence that ventilators may have been over used early on doing more harm than good.

Apparently, these other countries are in need and we want to help them to ensure that there health care systems are not overwhelmed. This not only helps them, but if you take a broader view is in our interest as well.

Thanks for playing.

So, I actually agree with this for the most part. As long as we have some sort of agreement that we can get them back in a timely fashion I think lending them out to countries in need is a good thing.

 

[Humperdoo]

So, that seems a bit weird to me - have you done an empirical study on this? Not that I'm doubting that there are intolerant people on the left, but that you don't find it on the right. Or that you find it much more prevalent on the left. This seems like an example of negativity bias. Would you be interested in trying to do an empirical study on this?

I wonder if we could do an internet scrape of all internet comments from the last 7 years, and then did a sentiment analysis on that - if we would find a significant difference in the way you are describing. How confident are you in your assessment? Would you be willing to bet anything of substantial value on that? (I'm not asking for a real bet, b/c I have no way of actually performing the experiment outside of a coding effort that would not be simple for me to do, I'm trying to gauge your confidence level on this.)

Good points Jim. It’s purely anecdotal. I can only judge someone on what I see, how they interact with me and mine.

I am very sure there are many on the right that exhibit the same, perhaps I’m just lucky as I only know a couple of them?

It’s funny the most bigoted and anti left I know was a life long Dem that loathed all things Republican. He tells me that to him, there is no Democrat party anymore.

Also, I’ve been attacked many times on the SR EE thread about COVID. Called a liar, other things....yet I was the one silenced. To me many on the left or with left views will just silence opposing views. Which the mod did. I was a part of SR for 23 years, donated, subbed, went to SR crawls etc. Was a kind of home to me. I cannot abide being silenced for having an opposing view, so l logged out for the last time there when I was silenced.

I’ve also had privileges revoked here, which is unsurprising to me. I have the utmost respect for Andrus so I’ll try to stick around here for awhile and hope that I get to see us coming together and trying to meet in the middle on some things instead of always playing ‘offense and defense’.
Life issues shouldn’t always be about attacking and defending. People need to work together.

 

[Humperdoo]

You went private by your own words because mods kicked you out of the thread for personally attacking people and continual improper engagement after people, myself included, pointed out the flaws in your argument and the holes in your sources.. So you went to PM, clearly, to get in a few shots.

You are not owed anything from that exchange my friend, let alone anonymity. Especially when it was as disrespectful as it was and as disrespectful as you continue to be.

I defended myself from multiple posters that did in fact personally attack me. For which they weren’t silenced, because their views aligned with yours. A few posters continually used ad hominem attacks against my posts, I finally responded. And once again, I utilized PM man to man as I’m uninterested in playing internet tough guy. Have no need to.

More projection. I vehemently disagree with your perspective, interpret as you choose to. I am not interested in continuing to converse with you.
There is no benefit to either one of us.

And my sources actually worked with the Bush’s Obama’s of the world. I couldn’t care less if you agree with them or their views or mine, at all. Truly.

Take care Bronco.

 

[N.O.Bronco]

Good points Jim. It’s purely anecdotal. I can only judge someone on what I see, how they interact with me and mine.

I am very sure there are many on the right that exhibit the same, perhaps I’m just lucky as I only know a couple of them?

It’s funny the most bigoted and anti left I know was a life long Dem that loathed all things Republican. He tells me that to him, there is no Democrat party anymore.

Also, I’ve been attacked many times on the SR EE thread about COVID. Called a liar, other things....yet I was the one silenced. To me many on the left or with left views will just silence opposing views. Which the mod did. I was a part of SR for 23 years, donated, subbed, went to SR crawls etc. Was a kind of home to me. I cannot abide being silenced for having an opposing view, so l logged out for the last time there when I was silenced.

I’ve also had privileges revoked here, which is unsurprising to me. I have the utmost respect for Andrus so I’ll try to stick around here for awhile and hope that I get to see us coming together and trying to meet in the middle on some things instead of always playing ‘offense and defense’.
Life issues shouldn’t always be about attacking and defending. People need to work together.

You seem to have completely missed the point I made.

Offense and defense speak to how you engage on either side of a debate.

When a person can not strive, or at least demonstrate a good faith effort to strive for, intellectual consistency whether they are defending a position or attacking one, defending the thing they support or attacking the one they dont, it signals to me a failure in their engagement and conversational capacity. And when combined with some of the other traits I listed, it indicateS to me an incompatibility with maintaining the necessary threshold of conversational decorum to sustain the sort of intellectual conversations this board is aiming to foster.

For instance, when a poster might spend an hour trying to put together a respectful counterpoint to another respectfully engaged poster’s thoughtful opinion on a matter, and a third person randomly jumps in to grind an axe and personally attack the first poster and not engage the highest hanging fruit of that post, instantly devolving the thread into the mud, it tends to signal to me that person is not interested or capable of engaging at the level needed to keep conversation above that threshold. Reinforced if the prior engagement and the proceeding one also follows that pattern.

 

[lurk]

I did not and have not personally attacked you. Lol.
Your projection is strong. I PM’d you as it was the right way to engage a man that called me a liar. I kept it private, but yet you put it out here. Not surprising to me. Do you enjoy when someone calls you a liar? You have interjected ad hominem attacks towards me repeatedly. And worry not about SR, I logged out of there for the last time when I got silenced for my opinion in the COVID thread.

I don’t need for you or anyone else to agree with me on all things, I’m not a hateful bigot. Believe what you will and be and stay safe and well. I can tell that you’d be a person in the real world that I’d not at all like. And that’s ok. Be you. I’ll be me.

None of this has anything to do with my post. If you're one of the people I was talking to, then respond to the post. If you're not one of the people I was talking to, then don't respond to the post. According to you, you hate Donald Trump, so that would make you not one of the people I was addressing, but perhaps you know something I don't. Either way, nobody is interested in your off-topic ramblings derailing every thread.

Just because that other guy was all worked.up doesn't mean you should assume he actually had a valid point.

A month or so ago there was a fear, based on some outrageous predictions, that there would be a shortage of ventilators. Those models were, as we now know, wrong.

There has been no shortage of ventilators, and we have seen Washington state send excess ventilators to New York and we have seen New York send excess ventilators to other states.

Meanwhile, not only have we have been adding ventilators to the stockpile but there is a growing body of evidence that ventilators may have been over used early on doing more harm than good.

Apparently, these other countries are in need and we want to help them to ensure that there health care systems are not overwhelmed. This not only helps them, but if you take a broader view is in our interest as well.

Thanks for playing.

So you are of the opinion that this is over and that this country is no longer in need of an emergency ventilator supply for the coming months?

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Good points Jim. It’s purely anecdotal. I can only judge someone on what I see, how they interact with me and mine.

I am very sure there are many on the right that exhibit the same, perhaps I’m just lucky as I only know a couple of them?

So, there are a couple of cognitive biases that come into play. The first is negativity bias where we are more likely to remember, or register negative information than we are positive or neutral information. How it comes into play here is we are much more likely to register an attack against "our side" than an attack against the other side. It hits more emotional buttons.

The second is the fundamental attribution error. We are more likely to allow for nuance in explaining our actions or those we think are like us than people who we don't identify with. For them, they do X b/c that's just the way they are. When I am rude, or snarky, or whatever, I can say well, I had a bad day, work was bad, or whatever. When one of them is rude, or whatever, it's because that's just the way they are.

It's something to guard against.

Something to keep in mind. People who post on message boards are the more hard core "believers" -- there is a certain amount of insanity or hubris that comes into play. Arguing with strangers on the internet.

It’s funny the most bigoted and anti left I know was a life long Dem that loathed all things Republican. He tells me that to him, there is no Democrat party anymore.

Also, I’ve been attacked many times on the SR EE thread about COVID. Called a liar, other things....yet I was the one silenced. To me many on the left or with left views will just silence opposing views. Which the mod did. I was a part of SR for 23 years, donated, subbed, went to SR crawls etc. Was a kind of home to me. I cannot abide being silenced for having an opposing view, so l logged out for the last time there when I was silenced.

I’ve also had privileges revoked here, which is unsurprising to me. I have the utmost respect for Andrus so I’ll try to stick around here for awhile and hope that I get to see us coming together and trying to meet in the middle on some things instead of always playing ‘offense and defense’.
Life issues shouldn’t always be about attacking and defending. People need to work together.

As far as your personal moderation experience, the only advice I can offer is that you cannot control other people. You can only control yourself, and thus if you are not getting the results you want, what do you need to change to get the results you want.

 

[Humperdoo]

None of this has anything to do with my post. If you're one of the people I was talking to, then respond to the post. If you're not one of the people I was talking to, then don't respond to the post. According to you, you hate Donald Trump, so that would make you not one of the people I was addressing, but perhaps you know something I don't. Either way, nobody is interested in your off-topic ramblings derailing every thread.




So you are of the opinion that this is over and that this country is no longer in need of an emergency ventilator supply for the coming months?

I don’t hate Donald Trump. I voted for him. Lol. For the reasons I’ve stated several times.
Therefore I am one of those people.

How in the world is your ad hominem attack there not the exact thing I’m accused of? Did I use an ad hominem? I am truly perplexed by this.

And how in the world is my response to your post off topic rambling??? When I responded to one of your own assertions?

Ty tho for telling me when to respond and what to.

 

[lurk]

So, I actually agree with this for the most part. As long as we have some sort of agreement that we can get them back in a timely fashion I think lending them out to countries in need is a good thing.

Once they're gone, they're gone. Do you legitimately believe that the leaders of those countries are going to unhook their citizens and allow them to die so they can ship ventilators back to us? Do you believe we would do that for some other country? Since there is no way to guarantee that our next peak will coincide with their next valley, it is impossible to assume there is any chance for them to be returned at any point in time that would be useful to us.

 

[Beach Friends]

So you are of the opinion that this is over and that this country is no longer in need of an emergency ventilator supply for the coming months?

For those who are unfamiliar with a strawman argument, Lurk has been kind enough to provide one here that is embarrassingly easy to spot.

Notice how this young man says, "so your are of the opinion that..." and then he proceeds to make some ridiculous statement that he pretends must necessarily follow from what I actually said.

 

[lurk]

I don’t hate Donald Trump. I voted for him. Lol. For the reasons I’ve stated several times.
Therefore I am one of those people.

And how in the world is my response to your post off topic rambling??? When I responded to one of your own assertions?

Ty tho for telling me when to respond and what to.

We're all well aware of who you voted for. You have continually explained away that vote by saying that you only did so not because you liked Trump but because Hillary was so unpalatable. Apparently you must have forgotten that part. As a wise person once said, "If you tell the truth, you don't have to have a good memory." Now either respond to the post or move on.

 

[Humperdoo]

So, there are a couple of cognitive biases that come into play. The first is negativity bias where we are more likely to remember, or register negative information than we are positive or neutral information. How it comes into play here is we are much more likely to register an attack against "our side" than an attack against the other side. It hits more emotional buttons.

The second is the fundamental attribution error. We are more likely to allow for nuance in explaining our actions or those we think are like us than people who we don't identify with. For them, they do X b/c that's just the way they are. When I am rude, or snarky, or whatever, I can say well, I had a bad day, work was bad, or whatever. When one of them is rude, or whatever, it's because that's just the way they are.

It's something to guard against.

Something to keep in mind. People who post on message boards are the more hard core "believers" -- there is a certain amount of insanity or hubris that comes into play. Arguing with strangers on the internet.



As far as your personal moderation experience, the only advice I can offer is that you cannot control other people. You can only control yourself, and thus if you are not getting the results you want, what do you need to change to get the results you want.

That’s a good post and with some good food for thought. To me the double standard is strong, so what I’ll have to change is to leave, as I did SR.

I was made to feel unwelcome there and I’m pretty unwelcome here too. I live my life half glass full especially after almost dying last year. I’m thankful for life and to not be in constant agony anymore, so I don’t have much interest in Internet shaming or arguing. Luckily as stated before I get along well in the real world, with everyone, even those that have opposing political and social views.

Your post about hard core being here hit home and helped me understand the bigoted hate a little more. Thank you for that.

Above all I hope to see us try as a society to come together and not continue to divide.

Be well Jim.

 

[N.O.Bronco]

I defended myself from multiple posters that did in fact personally attack me. For which they weren’t silenced, because their views aligned with yours. A few posters continually used ad hominem attacks against my posts, I finally responded. And once again, I utilized PM man to man as I’m uninterested in playing internet tough guy. Have no need to.

More projection. I vehemently disagree with your perspective, interpret as you choose to. I am not interested in continuing to converse with you.
There is no benefit to either one of us.

And my sources actually worked with the Bush’s Obama’s of the world. I couldn’t care less if you agree with them or their views or mine, at all. Truly.

Take care Bronco.

Your personally rooted confrontation seeking behavior toward me says otherwise.

Much like the PM and the other thread, you engaged me, And you engaged me through personal insult, not the other way around.

At some point the excuse runs dry when every engagement you thrust yourself into involves you initiating the very things you claim to be the victim of or are pointing the finger at others for.

 

[Humperdoo]

We're all well aware of who you voted for. You have continually explained away that vote by saying that you only did so not because you liked Trump but because Hillary was so unpalatable. Apparently you must have forgotten that part. As a wise person once said, "If you tell the truth, you don't have to have a good memory." Now either respond to the post or move on.

Now a veiled insult insinuating that I’m a liar. Impressive. You’ll get away with it too. I don’t hate Trump. At all.

I’ll acquiesce to your demand now and move on. Gladly.

Sadly I won’t bow for you tho.

Be well lurk.

 

[lurk]

For those who are unfamiliar with a strawman argument, Lurk has been kind enough to provide one here that is embarrassingly easy to spot.

Notice how this young man says, "so your are of the opinion that..." and then he proceeds to make some ridiculous statement that he pretends must necessarily follow from what I actually said.

If you'd speak for yourself, I wouldn't have to speak for you. Your need to deflect attention rather than respond to a very straightforward topic speaks volumes. If UncleTrvlingJim has no problem doing it, why can't you? I wonder what the difference is?