All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (3 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[bdb13]

I know Trump is an imbecile, but even imbeciles know not to inject Lysol! I'm still shocked that he would say that. Apparently Lysol was petrified of lawsuits, so they immediately issued a warning to people not to inject their products. I have an idea for Trump. Trump should experiment with these ideas on himself before proposing his fake cures. I know that idea won't be heeded, so how about this. Trump should stay off of the stage, and let people with common sense and intelligence do the talking. Everyday he just causes more chaos with his nonsense.

He was definitely thinking out loud, like efil said. If you're dumb enough to stand in front of the country and say whatever pops in your head, you're going to say some really dumb shirt.

 

[N.O.Bronco]

Are you saying that Democratic leaders are on the air promoting unproven medication? Or are you only saying that there are stupid Democrats out there? Those are two different things.

Out of curiosity, when I want to see the way the core Trump voter is processing events, you check TD.

And so of course there was/is a massive self medicating hydroxychloroquine thread on TigerDroppings.

And when someone had the audacity to post the results of the recent studies that it is causing more harm/death than no treatment, the board piled on and largely dug in, or at a minimum made excuses defending the signal boosting.

Which goes to show the pervasive harm Trump is capable of with a group of followers that hang on his every lie and ignorance like it came down off stone tablets from god.

 

[zztop]

Out of curiosity, when I want to see the way the core Trump voter is processing events, you check TD.

And so of course there was/is a massive self medicating hydroxychloroquine thread on TigerDroppings.

And when someone had the audacity to post the results of the recent studies that it is causing more harm/death than no treatment, the board piled on and largely dug in, or at a minimum made excuses defending the signal boosting.

Which goes to show the pervasive harm Trump is capable of with a group of followers that hang on his every lie and ignorance like it came down off stone tablets from god.

There's an intriguing sociological reason so many Americans are ignoring facts lately

One reason the alternative facts industry has been so effective has to do with the idea of the "backfire effect," according to the sociologist Tristan Bridges.

www.businessinsider.com

There is a concept social scientists call the "backfire effect."

As a rule, misinformed people do not change their minds once they have been presented with facts that challenge their beliefs. But beyond simply not changing their minds when they should, research shows that they are likely to become more attached to their mistaken beliefs. The factual information "backfires." When people don't agree with you, research suggests that bringing in facts to support your case might actually make them believe you less.

In other words, fighting the ill-informed with facts is like fighting a grease fire with water. It seems like it should work, but it's actually going to make things worse.

There is also something called "confirmation bias"

Confirmation bias - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[lurk]

So now he's decided to send US ventilators to Ecuador, El Salvador, Honduras, and Indonesia. Given the mechanism of this virus and the extremely long road ahead for us, we should not be sending ventilators to our closest allies right now, let alone those substantially further down the list. All you supporters of his who are raging Nationalists (which is all of you), defend this. Step up to the plate and defend it instead of running away like you usually do.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...to-ecuador-indonesia-trump-idUSKCN2262AD?il=0

 

[FullMonte]

So now he's decided to send US ventilators to Ecuador, El Salvador, Honduras, and Indonesia. Given the mechanism of this virus and the extremely long road ahead for us, we should not be sending ventilators to our closest allies right now, let alone those substantially further down the list. All you supporters of his who are raging Nationalists (which is all of you), defend this. Step up to the plate and defend it instead of running away like you usually do.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...to-ecuador-indonesia-trump-idUSKCN2262AD?il=0

Here's the bigger question...

Trump (and his supporters) rail against Obama because during the H1N1 pandemic, the US seriously depleted their stockpile of N95 masks, and that stockpile was never rebuilt (even under Trump's administration).

Trump (and his supporters) brag about how Trump used the DPA to build up a huge stockpile of ventilators, and now they are sending them to other countries (and depleting said stockpile).

Can someone please reconcile these two things?

 

[N.O.Bronco]

There's an intriguing sociological reason so many Americans are ignoring facts lately

One reason the alternative facts industry has been so effective has to do with the idea of the "backfire effect," according to the sociologist Tristan Bridges.

www.businessinsider.com

There is a concept social scientists call the "backfire effect."

As a rule, misinformed people do not change their minds once they have been presented with facts that challenge their beliefs. But beyond simply not changing their minds when they should, research shows that they are likely to become more attached to their mistaken beliefs. The factual information "backfires." When people don't agree with you, research suggests that bringing in facts to support your case might actually make them believe you less.

In other words, fighting the ill-informed with facts is like fighting a grease fire with water. It seems like it should work, but it's actually going to make things worse.

There is also something called "confirmation bias"

Confirmation bias - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yep, It is partially why I have eased away from arguing habitually with people that don’t seem to value facts or neutral reasoning in their decision-making. If I engage with that archetype it is typically for the audience less than for the person on the other end of the factual ignorance.

Humans are pretty predictably irrational, for instance, if you ask a person to argue a knowingly false position, they will tend to actually start believing in that position. Which plays off what you are speaking to, when people are already on the wrong side of facts, the process of arguing typically just serves as a reinforcement loop for the other person to dig in harder. UNLESS they are someone that holds in a high regard the capacity to self critique and to the best of their ability objectively weigh facts and reasoning. People who arent looking at debate as simply a tool to establish dominance over the other person. Which is honestly what a large swath of Twitter and online argument is about at the root.

People that avoid the most challenging critiques and can’t demonstrate the application of consistent critical thinking skills when on offense or defense are rarely going to be anything but a drag in community discussion and to me that is a far better red flag than anything.

 

[Beach Friends]

All you supporters of his who are raging Nationalists (which is all of you), defend this. Step up to the plate and defend it instead of running away like you usually do.

I just thought this classic display of civillity was worth highlighting.

 

[wardorican]

You might have to look at the Democrats for help on this one. They seem to be the one eating fish tank cleaner because of an ingredients listed.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/arizona-woman-fish-tank-cleaner-trump-democrat

That's a great example of mental gymnastics. The problem was still that people are stupid and listen to authority figures. So, when an authority figure says something stupid, it can be dangerous. So, it doesn't matter if the 'stupid person' is a democrat of republican. What matters is when public officials, given a public trust, and authority can't muck it up so awfully.

So, thanks for reminding us of another of Trump's failings in this regard.

EDIT: And this ignores the fact that she may have been lying to try to kill her husband...

 

[Humperdoo]

Yep, It is partially why I have eased away from arguing habitually with people that don’t seem to value facts or neutral reasoning in their decision-making. If I engage with that archetype it is typically for the audience less than for the person on the other end of the factual ignorance.

Humans are pretty predictably irrational, for instance, if you ask a person to argue a knowingly false position, they will tend to actually start believing in that position. Which plays off what you are speaking to, when people are already on the wrong side of facts, the process of arguing typically just serves as a reinforcement loop for the other person to dig in harder. UNLESS they are someone that holds in a high regard the capacity to self critique and to the best of their ability objectively weigh facts and reasoning. People who arent looking at debate as simply a tool to establish dominance over the other person. Which is honestly what a large swath of Twitter and online argument is about at the root.

People that avoid the most challenging critiques and can’t demonstrate the application of consistent critical thinking skills when on offense or defense are rarely going to be anything but a drag in community discussion and to me that is a far better red flag than anything.

Your part about offense or defense says it all. Shouldn’t be about offense or defense. And if you can’t understand that, you epitomize exactly what you’re prattling on about in your post.
Having said that, I hope you and yours are well.

 

[brandon]

I just thought this classic display of civillity was worth highlighting.

I think your lack of response is worth highlighting.

 

[wardorican]

Your part about offense or defense says it all. Shouldn’t be about offense or defense. And if you can’t understand that, you epitomize exactly what you’re prattling on about in your post.
Having said that, I hope you and yours are well.

I don't think NO Bronco doesn't understand that.. he's simply stating most posters seem to start their "opinion" position from a position of offense or defense. i.e. someone pokes fun at Trump for talking about injecting a disinfectant. Instead of just saying, 'yup, that was dumb" we have Farb talking about, "Oh yeah, well democrats are really stupid and took his advice too!" Who cares? Just admit that the President said something stupid. It's not going to cause millions to die. But a few morons or gullible people might take action on that bad advice.

I get why Trump can't admit making a mistake. I get when many Trump supporters want to back him up, because some of the attacks get silly. However, no one, ever, can say that all of the attacks are silly. There are always a few that land, because they're just objectively true. Just take the loss and move on.

 

[lurk]

I just thought this classic display of civillity was worth highlighting.

You can have civility when you earn it. Now how about you answer the question since you're one of his main fluffers.

 

[Humperdoo]

I don't think NO Bronco doesn't understand that.. he's simply stating most posters seem to start their "opinion" position from a position of offense or defense. i.e. someone pokes fun at Trump for talking about injecting a disinfectant. Instead of just saying, 'yup, that was dumb" we have Farb talking about, "Oh yeah, well democrats are really stupid and took his advice too!" Who cares? Just admit that the President said something stupid. It's not going to cause millions to die. But a few morons or gullible people might take action on that bad advice.

I get why Trump can't admit making a mistake. I get when many Trump supporters want to back him up, because some of the attacks get silly. However, no one, ever, can say that all of the attacks are silly. There are always a few that land, because they're just objectively true. Just take the loss and move on.

Well stated and I agree. Well stated even if I didn’t.
And FTR I’m not a Trump man, I’m lesser of evils and he’s that, to me.

 

[N.O.Bronco]

Your part about offense or defense says it all. Shouldn’t be about offense or defense. And if you can’t understand that, you epitomize exactly what you’re prattling on about in your post.
Having said that, I hope you and yours are well.

I trimmed out the part of my response where I went on to mention that typically you can tell what those red flags of people not actually interested in respectful intellectual engagement are. Like if a person is constantly quick to avoid addressing the substance of another’s post and re-routing toward ad hominems, guilt by association, low-level trolling, empirical avoidance, habitually avoiding the high hanging fruit in a conversation, and constantly committing logical inconsistencies without a sense of shame. How typically they make elevating community discussions almost impossible because you spend all of your time and entire threads just trying to get those people unwilling to reciprocate basic standards of intellectual respect and consistency to value reciprocating them. But because they aren’t here for that, or don‘t value that, they just become never-ending drags on the threads they are in.

Considering your last two interactions with me involved a personal attack PM on SR stemming from multiple posters frustrated with your ad hominem laced defenses on perpetuating debunked sources, then interjecting yourself into a healthy conversation I was having with Richard about how to characterize and categorize Fox News relative to the rest of the media, all so you could go on ANOTHER multi paragraph personal attack rant that had nothing to do with the conversation, much like you are now, you are sort of proving my thesis here and helping highlight why I find it increasingly futile to engage people that don’t demonstrate valuing any of those things.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Two things can be true at the same time.

I think this is very true, and worth remembering.

That's a great example of mental gymnastics. The problem was still that people are stupid and listen to authority figures. So, when an authority figure says something stupid, it can be dangerous. So, it doesn't matter if the 'stupid person' is a democrat of republican. What matters is when public officials, given a public trust, and authority can't muck it up so awfully.

So, thanks for reminding us of another of Trump's failings in this regard.

EDIT: And this ignores the fact that she may have been lying to try to kill her husband...

I went back and read the thread and I think Farb was responding to the post saying they expect Trump supporters to start drinking bleach or something, and he was responding to the idea that it was only Trump supporters who would do something that stupid.

 

[Humperdoo]

So now he's decided to send US ventilators to Ecuador, El Salvador, Honduras, and Indonesia. Given the mechanism of this virus and the extremely long road ahead for us, we should not be sending ventilators to our closest allies right now, let alone those substantially further down the list. All you supporters of his who are raging Nationalists (which is all of you), defend this. Step up to the plate and defend it instead of running away like you usually do.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...to-ecuador-indonesia-trump-idUSKCN2262AD?il=0

That’s a tad broad. I am not a raging anything, let alone Nationalist.

It’s also funny you state that those folks run away, when most on here that are ‘left’ would be the poster child of running away if in the real world, and not behind the anonymity and safety of their screens.

It’s so odd to me as the only bigoted and hateful people I encounter, are here. I’m friends with people who don’t agree with me politically or socially, many of them, and they don’t carry themselves as most of you do. For which I’m thankful.

The world doesn’t need more bigoted hate and vitriol. Needs more love, compassion, empathy and tolerance.

Lastly and only online, the folks I see constantly ‘raging’ are people on the left. Seem to be way less tolerant of opposing views

 

[Humperdoo]

I trimmed out the part of my response where I went on to mention that typically you can tell what those red flags of people not actually interested in respectful intellectual engagement are. Like if a person is constantly quick to avoid addressing the substance of another’s post and re-routing toward ad hominems, guilt by association, low-level trolling, empirical avoidance, habitually avoiding the high hanging fruit in a conversation, and constantly committing logical inconsistencies without a sense of shame. How typically they make elevating community discussions almost impossible because you spend all of your time and entire threads just trying to get those people unwilling to reciprocate basic standards of intellectual respect and consistency to value reciprocating them. But because they aren’t here for that, or don‘t value that, they just become never-ending drags on the threads they are in.

Considering your last two interactions with me involved a personal attack PM on SR stemming from multiple posters frustrated with your ad hominem laced defenses on perpetuating debunked sources, then interjecting yourself into a healthy conversation I was having with Richard about how to characterize and categorize Fox News relative to the rest of the media, all so you could go on ANOTHER multi paragraph personal attack rant, much like you are now, you are sort of proving my thesis here and helping highlight why I find it increasingly futile to engage people that don’t demonstrate valuing any of those things.

I did not and have not personally attacked you. Lol.
Your projection is strong. I PM’d you as it was the right way to engage a man that called me a liar. I kept it private, but yet you put it out here. Not surprising to me. Do you enjoy when someone calls you a liar? You have interjected ad hominem attacks towards me repeatedly. And worry not about SR, I logged out of there for the last time when I got silenced for my opinion in the COVID thread.

I don’t need for you or anyone else to agree with me on all things, I’m not a hateful bigot. Believe what you will and be and stay safe and well. I can tell that you’d be a person in the real world that I’d not at all like. And that’s ok. Be you. I’ll be me.

 

[Beach Friends]

I think your lack of response is worth highlighting.

Just because that other guy was all worked.up doesn't mean you should assume he actually had a valid point.

A month or so ago there was a fear, based on some outrageous predictions, that there would be a shortage of ventilators. Those models were, as we now know, wrong.

There has been no shortage of ventilators, and we have seen Washington state send excess ventilators to New York and we have seen New York send excess ventilators to other states.

Meanwhile, not only have we have been adding ventilators to the stockpile but there is a growing body of evidence that ventilators may have been over used early on doing more harm than good.

Apparently, these other countries are in need and we want to help them to ensure that there health care systems are not overwhelmed. This not only helps them, but if you take a broader view is in our interest as well.

Thanks for playing.