All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (9 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[Beach Friends]

You need to be more specific.

No I don't. Aren't you the same guy who got all goofy and started asking me if I thought the virus was spread by mosquitoes when I said the WHO repeated China's lie about not having evidence that this virus was communicable from human to human? I went to the trouble of pointing you in the right direction so that you could understand the concepts. You never bothered to acknowledge that as far as I know.

That information, like this, is readily available. I am not going to constantly bring you up to speed just because you have less knowledge than you should to be speaking so dogmatically.

 

[Humperdoo]

Yes, there is some evidence trickling in that the mortality rate will not be ridiculously high. New York currently has a mortality rate of about 40%, but their recent antibody tests of 3000 samples reveal that about 10 times as many people as reported have the virus. That suggests that about 3M people in New York have been infected. Yet they've lost over 21k people already out of 277k confirmed cases, and only about 30k have recovered. Since they still have about 224k active cases, it is reasonable to infer that at least another 20 to 60k will die among those 224k. So if 40 to 80k die among 3M infected, that's a 1.3 to 2.6% mortality rate, which is in line with what experts have been assessing for a couple of months now. That mortality rate justifies the actions taken to prevent more widespread infections in a short timeframe.

One problem with the antibody tests is that infected people will have positive antibody results. Since it can take 14 days to develop symptoms, who's to say that most of those 3M won't develop symptoms? People assume that the presence of antibodies means they already beat the virus, but since this virus doesn't act like most diseases, since it takes so long to develop symptoms, I think that is a bad assumption.

Ty for the breakdown. I think that would be an unwise assumption as well.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Yesterday we had the highest daily cases confirmed in the US, about 38.7k cases. That tells me we have not peaked. Some could be due to the recent parades. We may be seeing increasing cases for a few more days. States that are opening will probably start surging. We may need to produce more ventilators and associated medical equipment.

I think people might've ignored guidelines over Easter weekend and we may see a small spike for a minute. Louisiana surely seems to be showing it some with the latest numbers.

 

[Lapaz]

I think people might've ignored guidelines over Easter weekend and we may see a small spike for a minute. Louisiana surely seems to be showing it some with the latest numbers.

You're probably right that some Easter services are affecting the numbers. I also think the parades are contributing to a spike, and now the premature openings without mandates for protections like in Georgia, will lead to more spikes.

 

[Lapaz]

No I don't. Aren't you the same guy who got all goofy and started asking me if I thought the virus was spread by mosquitoes when I said the WHO repeated China's lie about not having evidence that this virus was communicable from human to human? I went to the trouble of pointing you in the right direction so that you could understand the concepts. You never bothered to acknowledge that as far as I know.

That information, like this, is readily available. I am not going to constantly bring you up to speed just because you have less knowledge than you should to be speaking so dogmatically.

I don't believe your assertion that "top models" predicted that Mississippi would need 1100 ventilators WITH mitigations in place. P.S. I don't think I've seen you point anyone in the correct direction, but I look forward to being pointed to these "top models".

 

[dtc]

That’s a tad broad. I am not a raging anything, let alone Nationalist.

It’s also funny you state that those folks run away, when most on here that are ‘left’ would be the poster child of running away if in the real world, and not behind the anonymity and safety of their screens.

It’s so odd to me as the only bigoted and hateful people I encounter, are here. I’m friends with people who don’t agree with me politically or socially, many of them, and they don’t carry themselves as most of you do. For which I’m thankful.

The world doesn’t need more bigoted hate and vitriol. Needs more love, compassion, empathy and tolerance.

Lastly and only online, the folks I see constantly ‘raging’ are people on the left. Seem to be way less tolerant of opposing views

That's funny considering half your posts on this board have been worthy of moderation and aimed with malice at those who disagree with you.

 

[Humperdoo]

That's funny considering half your posts on this board have been worthy of moderation and aimed with malice at those who disagree with you.

Hi dtc,

I strongly disagree with that assertion but respect your opinion. I hope you and yours are well.

 

[Heathen]

I'd be interested to hear Republicans/Trump voters opinion on this guy. This is Vic DiBitetto. He's a comedian and recently absolutely ripped the government for its COVID-19 response. I know Republicans mantra is generally being pretty anti-government, but what Vic blasts is the checks all while the rich get bailed out. He says we need to cancel rents and mortgage payments until this crisis is over and I 1000% agree. Those checks were petty. It's our money, and if the government can provide corporate socialism EVERY YEAR while regular people pay just as much if not more in taxes, the government can also restructure to provide rent relief AND provide checks for food and other necessities during this virus.

The vibe I get is that:

Republicans want less government and think it doesnt work
Democrats want more government and think it doesnt work

What if we concentrate on making it work for the people (common denominator?). Just a thought....

WARNING...The rant is expletive filled....but don't overlook the message. Tell me what you guys think:

'I struck a nerve': the US comedian whose rant against Covid-19 bailouts went viral

Vic DiBitetto believes his rant about the US government’s response was viewed more than 10m times because of his raw anger – but he says it wasn’t an act

www.theguardian.com

 

[Beach Friends]

I'd be interested to hear Republicans/Trump voters opinion on this guy. This is Vic DiBitetto. He's a comedian and recently absolutely ripped the government for its COVID-19 response. I know Republicans mantra is generally being pretty anti-government, but what Vic blasts is the checks all while the rich get bailed out. He says we need to cancel rents and mortgage payments until this crisis is over and I 1000% agree. Those checks were petty. It's our money, and if the government can provide corporate socialism EVERY YEAR while regular people pay just as much if not more in taxes, the government can also restructure to provide rent relief AND provide checks for food and other necessities during this virus.

The vibe I get is that:

Republicans want less government and think it doesnt work
Democrats want more government and think it doesnt work

What if we concentrate on making it work for the people (common denominator?). Just a thought....

WARNING...The rant is expletive filled....but don't overlook the message. Tell me what you guys think:

'I struck a nerve': the US comedian whose rant against Covid-19 bailouts went viral

Vic DiBitetto believes his rant about the US government’s response was viewed more than 10m times because of his raw anger – but he says it wasn’t an act

www.theguardian.com

I didn't make it through the whole thing because he's just too obnoxious. But, I agreed with what I heard.

I agree with what you said - we should be focused on the common denominator, the common people and businesses that will not make it after a couple of months of being shut down.

I also don't see the problem as being Democrat vs Republican. I am not saying that you do, but I am saying that anyone who does see it that way is probably naive.

Members of both parties are beholden to those who line their pockets.

IMO, the Democrats were right there with the Republicans every step of the way.

If the Democrats were really the party of the working family, they would have been focused on that rather than those pet projects that only a small fraction of the nation really care about.

I think anyone who is open minded will look back at this period and realize that the Democratic party really missed a lot opportunities by becoming tethered to the fringe cultural left that they helped create but are now afraid of offending.

 

[Humperdoo]

I watched the whole thing and I agree with him. Plus 1 for dirt neck ———- too. I worry he’s gonna have a myocardial if this is his shtick.

 

[The moose]

I'd be interested to hear Republicans/Trump voters opinion on this guy. This is Vic DiBitetto. He's a comedian and recently absolutely ripped the government for its COVID-19 response. I know Republicans mantra is generally being pretty anti-government, but what Vic blasts is the checks all while the rich get bailed out. He says we need to cancel rents and mortgage payments until this crisis is over and I 1000% agree. Those checks were petty. It's our money, and if the government can provide corporate socialism EVERY YEAR while regular people pay just as much if not more in taxes, the government can also restructure to provide rent relief AND provide checks for food and other necessities during this virus.

The vibe I get is that:

Republicans want less government and think it doesnt work
Democrats want more government and think it doesnt work

What if we concentrate on making it work for the people (common denominator?). Just a thought....

WARNING...The rant is expletive filled....but don't overlook the message. Tell me what you guys think:

'I struck a nerve': the US comedian whose rant against Covid-19 bailouts went viral

Vic DiBitetto believes his rant about the US government’s response was viewed more than 10m times because of his raw anger – but he says it wasn’t an act

www.theguardian.com

Yeah I saw this a few days ago.

Was wondering when it would make it here.

I don't disagree with what he says just glad he was in a car cuz he was spraying some potential virus.

That in a nutshell is the problem with our government we are always looking out for the big corporate entities instead of the people.

I could give a rats arse about the stock market anymore. It certainly seems rigged every ten years we get wiped out. Yet they get bailed out and our retirement will never come.

 

[Heathen]

I didn't make it through the whole thing because he's just too obnoxious. But, I agreed with what I heard.

I agree with what you said - we should be focused on the common denominator, the common people and businesses that will not make it after a couple of months of being shut down.

I also don't see the problem as being Democrat vs Republican. I am not saying that you do, but I am saying that anyone who does see it that way is probably naive.

Members of both parties are beholden to those who line their pockets.

IMO, the Democrats were right there with the Republicans every step of the way.

I agree. Maybe during this pandemic members of both sides can come together to agree that certain measures should be taken. I mean, what's next? If this virus gets worse or simply doesn't go away this year or next, this is a way of life now. And that means mom and pop businesses are gone, even chain businesses being wiped out..unemployment numbers like the Great Depression..

At this point IMO the people have to tell the government what to do, what they need. Because checks aren't gonna cut it, no pun intended.

If the Democrats were really the party of the working family, they would have been focused on that rather than those pet projects that only a small fraction of the nation really care about.

I think anyone who is open minded will look back at this period and realize that the Democratic party really missed a lot opportunities by becoming tethered to the fringe cultural left that they helped create but are now afraid of offending.

I think the choice is between a shirte sandwich and piss soup, to be blunt. If we just speak strictly in the realm of economics for now, we can agree that both parties aren't doing enough for the average middle class American.

This is why cultural issues don't bother to me. Because they are downright meaningless in the face of the biggest issue (economic) that we're facing now.

I think the American people need rents and credit card bills cancelled until this is over. This wouldn't be some shocking thing -- we've already done this with student loans. We need a basic income weekly until this thing is over. We thought we may encounter the first experimentations with that when automation wiped out large sectors of the economy. The coronavirus said 'We don't need to wait a decade...Hold my beer'.

I don't mean to fearmonger, I really don't...but the United States economy will absolutely freefall to new lows this year and there will be mass civil unrest to a dangerous level if something more is not done. Nobody wants that. We might get a brief break over the summer from the contagion, but it will come back just as strong if not stronger this Fall.

We can implement protections for every American until we get through this. If we can spend trillions looking for people in caves in the ME and polishing our toys, we can take care of our people temporarily.

Will we? Track record isn't promising. But this virus could change history.

 

[JimEverett]

I agree. Maybe during this pandemic members of both sides can come together to agree that certain measures should be taken. I mean, what's next? If this virus gets worse or simply doesn't go away this year or next, this is a way of life now. And that means mom and pop businesses are gone, even chain businesses being wiped out..unemployment numbers like the Great Depression..

At this point IMO the people have to tell the government what to do, what they need. Because checks aren't gonna cut it, no pun intended.




I think the choice is between a shirte sandwich and piss soup, to be blunt. If we just speak strictly in the realm of economics for now, we can agree that both parties aren't doing enough for the average middle class American.

This is why cultural issues don't bother to me. Because they are downright meaningless in the face of the biggest issue (economic) that we're facing now.

I think the American people need rents and credit card bills cancelled until this is over. This wouldn't be some shocking thing -- we've already done this with student loans. We need a basic income weekly until this thing is over. We thought we may encounter the first experimentations with that when automation wiped out large sectors of the economy. The coronavirus said 'We don't need to wait a decade...Hold my beer'.

I don't mean to fearmonger, I really don't...but the United States economy will absolutely freefall to new lows this year and there will be mass civil unrest to a dangerous level if something more is not done. Nobody wants that. We might get a brief break over the summer from the contagion, but it will come back just as strong if not stronger this Fall.

We can implement protections for every American until we get through this. If we can spend trillions looking for people in caves in the ME and polishing our toys, we can take care of our people temporarily.

Will we? Track record isn't promising. But this virus could change history.

I think that is way jumping the gun.

Why would we stay shut down? I could see opening back up and it not be the same - as in some sectors are really hard hit for a sustained period of time - tourism, even restaurants. But I don't understand why we would go back into shut down of the sort that happened the last 2 months if it does come back in the fall. Perhaps certain areas would shut down?

 

[N.O.Bronco]

I think that is way jumping the gun.

Why would we stay shut down? I could see opening back up and it not be the same - as in some sectors are really hard hit for a sustained period of time - tourism, even restaurants. But I don't understand why we would go back into shut down of the sort that happened the last 2 months if it does come back in the fall. Perhaps certain areas would shut down?

Let’s assume your optimism, let’s assume the global economy, and more importantly the American economy, comes back at 85% of pre-covid levels in the next two months(almost impossible given the lack of testing and tracing and confidence but let’s play with it).

And we operate that way for about the next 12 months.

....That would still be amongst the most massive economic contractions in our history. One which will still require massive demand side intervention to counteract.

 

[Heathen]

I think that is way jumping the gun.

Why would we stay shut down? I could see opening back up and it not be the same - as in some sectors are really hard hit for a sustained period of time - tourism, even restaurants. But I don't understand why we would go back into shut down of the sort that happened the last 2 months if it does come back in the fall. Perhaps certain areas would shut down?

I think it isn't jumping the gun because we've already seen spikes of the infamous COVID-19 'cluster' in areas where economies have been opened up or where protestors have gathered en masse.

I'm arguing that if we don't stay shut down, we'll see more people dying than if we did. Not emotion or 'want' by me. I want the economy back open as much as anyone else..I'm just stating what I believe to be the unfortunate case.

Those openings, in turn, will cause businesses to 'operate at their own risk' or have the state/local govt's tell them to shut down again if we do see another spike.

Clubs, bars, music, all sporting events remain shut down. I mean, can you imagine a date when they 'can' open back up safely? Not until we have a vaccine. It'll take ONE outbreak on the news to send that business to its grave. Restaurants and clothing stores for example may operate on a very restricted basis, but will still lose revenue dramatically due to scares of outbreaks. I dont even see how they survive in the near term without drastic assistance.

I may be off base, but I'm saying based on what we know about how the virus spreads and our lack of vaccine within the forseeable future, I don't see how things don't go from bad to worse --- without -- and this is where I'm pitching my case, some sort of government bail out for the middle class. Expand SBA loans until the end of the year at least. Suspend all rent and mortgage payments. Cover all credit card payments and interest. Send money to every American weekly so they don't have to decide between their health and possibly infecting others or dying and feeding their families.

This isnt a liberal pipe dream. This is what other countries are doing and what will be necessary and moral to keep our country from irreparable damage.

 

[Beach Friends]

I agree. Maybe during this pandemic members of both sides can come together to agree that certain measures should be taken. I mean, what's next? If this virus gets worse or simply doesn't go away this year or next, this is a way of life now. And that means mom and pop businesses are gone, even chain businesses being wiped out..unemployment numbers like the Great Depression..

At this point IMO the people have to tell the government what to do, what they need. Because checks aren't gonna cut it, no pun intended.




I think the choice is between a shirte sandwich and piss soup, to be blunt. If we just speak strictly in the realm of economics for now, we can agree that both parties aren't doing enough for the average middle class American.

This is why cultural issues don't bother to me. Because they are downright meaningless in the face of the biggest issue (economic) that we're facing now.

I think the American people need rents and credit card bills cancelled until this is over. This wouldn't be some shocking thing -- we've already done this with student loans. We need a basic income weekly until this thing is over. We thought we may encounter the first experimentations with that when automation wiped out large sectors of the economy. The coronavirus said 'We don't need to wait a decade...Hold my beer'.

I don't mean to fearmonger, I really don't...but the United States economy will absolutely freefall to new lows this year and there will be mass civil unrest to a dangerous level if something more is not done. Nobody wants that. We might get a brief break over the summer from the contagion, but it will come back just as strong if not stronger this Fall.

We can implement protections for every American until we get through this. If we can spend trillions looking for people in caves in the ME and polishing our toys, we can take care of our people temporarily.

Will we? Track record isn't promising. But this virus could change history.

I haven't delved into the stimulus packages too deeply, but I am getting the impression that they have pulled the same crap they did for the 2008 bailout.

BTW, I keep observing that there seems to what I consider an "economic left" that I feel I have common ground with even though I am wary of some of their policies.

"Populist" is assumed to be a pejorative these days - but it seems that there is a populist left and a populist right who can both agree that the Republican establishment and the Democratic establishment are both screwing us over.

 

[N.O.Bronco]

I agree. Maybe during this pandemic members of both sides can come together to agree that certain measures should be taken. I mean, what's next? If this virus gets worse or simply doesn't go away this year or next, this is a way of life now. And that means mom and pop businesses are gone, even chain businesses being wiped out..unemployment numbers like the Great Depression..

At this point IMO the people have to tell the government what to do, what they need. Because checks aren't gonna cut it, no pun intended.




I think the choice is between a shirte sandwich and piss soup, to be blunt. If we just speak strictly in the realm of economics for now, we can agree that both parties aren't doing enough for the average middle class American.

This is why cultural issues don't bother to me. Because they are downright meaningless in the face of the biggest issue (economic) that we're facing now.

I think the American people need rents and credit card bills cancelled until this is over. This wouldn't be some shocking thing -- we've already done this with student loans. We need a basic income weekly until this thing is over. We thought we may encounter the first experimentations with that when automation wiped out large sectors of the economy. The coronavirus said 'We don't need to wait a decade...Hold my beer'.

I don't mean to fearmonger, I really don't...but the United States economy will absolutely freefall to new lows this year and there will be mass civil unrest to a dangerous level if something more is not done. Nobody wants that. We might get a brief break over the summer from the contagion, but it will come back just as strong if not stronger this Fall.

We can implement protections for every American until we get through this. If we can spend trillions looking for people in caves in the ME and polishing our toys, we can take care of our people temporarily.

Will we? Track record isn't promising. But this virus could change history.

The left has always been the only place with structural answers to the trends of a mature stage capitalist society that is trending toward exponential inequality and massive issues involving structural shocks like automation and negative externality costs like climate change. Or a number of unsustainable and increasing societal burdens like the current healthcare system, student loans, education, infrastructure, and the lack of adequate backstops in the safety net for shocks to the economy. It’s no surprise then that in a shock that immediately exacerbated those trends the only solutions so far have their roots in those left wing policies. The question is whether the people that fight against those needed policies for this crisis will actually come around.

That hasn’t really changed. And the largest impediment to that hasn’t really changed either, which is the Republican Party and paralyzed incrementalist Democrats.

Already we hear rumblings from people like McConnell who while representing a state that takes billions a year from surplus blue states that they will not help meet the shortfall brought on by incompetence at the federal level for states hit by this virus. That socialism for business is enough, more temporary socialism for the people is now non-negotiable.

It would be nice if Republicans suddenly upended 50 years of cynically driven lemon socialistic policies combined with starve-the-beast strategies at the moments the American people are at their most vulnerable, but I suspect the calls for austerity will come far sooner from the right than the calls for compensating our so-called “essential workers” like they actually are, or making sure a poor person has something to eat instead of cynically operating with a grotesque mindset that if you fatten the peons too much they won’t get into your hamster wheels for cheap anymore.

Hell, we basically see the strategy emerging in the right, push the economy to open sooner than later despite clear evidence to both the long-term economic and human harm it will cause relative to a stronger short-term isolation strategy so the curve can come down and the systems needed are firmly in place to test and trace.

 

[JimEverett]

I think it isn't jumping the gun because we've already seen spikes of the infamous COVID-19 'cluster' in areas where economies have been opened up or where protestors have gathered en masse.



I'm arguing that if we don't stay shut down, we'll see more people dying than if we did. Not emotion or 'want' by me. I want the economy back open as much as anyone else..I'm just stating what I believe to be the unfortunate case.

Those openings, in turn, will cause businesses to 'operate at their own risk' or have the state/local govt's tell them to shut down again if we do see another spike.

Clubs, bars, music, all sporting events remain shut down. I mean, can you imagine a date when they 'can' open back up safely? Not until we have a vaccine. It'll take ONE outbreak on the news to send that business to its grave. Restaurants and clothing stores for example may operate on a very restricted basis, but will still lose revenue dramatically due to scares of outbreaks. I dont even see how they survive in the near term without drastic assistance.

I may be off base, but I'm saying based on what we know about how the virus spreads and our lack of vaccine within the forseeable future, I don't see how things don't go from bad to worse --- without -- and this is where I'm pitching my case, some sort of government bail out for the middle class. Expand SBA loans until the end of the year at least. Suspend all rent and mortgage payments. Cover all credit card payments and interest. Send money to every American weekly so they don't have to decide between their health and possibly infecting others or dying and feeding their families.

This isnt a liberal pipe dream. This is what other countries are doing and what will be necessary and moral to keep our country from irreparable damage.

I am not sure what the mindset of people will be. So perhaps you are correct. I am sure there will be many people who do not spend money like they used to do regardless of how much opens up or not
But it seems like you are now arguing that things should be or will be shut down just to avoid people getting the disease.
I thought the idea was that things would be shut down to buy us some time so hospitals would not be overrun. At this point it seems like some degree of opening back up seems prudent given that hospitals are laying off people for lack of activity, unless the argument is that we should stay locked down until it is certain that no one wil lget the virus.