All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (10 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[Lapaz]

Denmark may end up being better off than Sweden and Sweden may end up being better off than quite a few other countries. But I think when considering nations that had a good or better approach more things than death rate should be considered - particularly the death rate right now. I mean Sweden knew going in that their approach would have the result of people dying but considered other factors as well (as all countries have done) and perhaps valued something else in a way Denmark did not.

Just as an example - I think Sweden's idea, in a way, was to get it over with on this first wave. Right? Perhaps that ends up being a "better" call. Perhaps not.

Sweeden's leaders will have made a tragic mistake if by the time the next wave hits, a reasonable treatment or vaccine is available to drastically cut the fatality rate. They played craps with people's lives in the face of evidence that suggested their approach was wrong. With that said, some people in Sweeden are voluntarily taking precautions, but since many are not, that is not likely going to matter. In the attached article from 5 days ago, it stated:

"The number of confirmed Swedish Covid-19 deaths has risen to more than 650, as of April 9. That brought the death rate per million in Sweden — Scandinavia’s biggest economy — to about 65. By comparison, Denmark’s rate was near 40 while Norway’s was near 20. "

As of 20 April, Sweeden has over 1580 deaths, a rate of 156 per million, compared to Denmark at 63, and Norway at 33. So Sweeden has grown by 2.4 times, while Denmark has grown by 1.5, and Norway by 1.65 times. More importantly, Denmark's daily cases have been dropping since 7 April, Norway's since 27 March, while Sweeden's daily cases are up and down, without an obvious tailing off.

The attached article also says Sweeden's officials will start shutting things down if they see the need, but it is probably far too late now. They are so far into this virus without taking sufficient action that they almost will get no benefit from a shutdown at this point. I think they are probably past the point of no return, and their craps experiment may have to play out.

Sweden’s government has tried a risky coronavirus strategy. It could backfire.

Critics say the government seeks “herd immunity” from the coronavirus. That could lead to more deaths.

www.vox.com

 

[surada]

As usual, I have no idea why you decided to reply to my post with what you did.

The thread is about the corona virus, not YOU.

 

[Lapaz]

Denmark may end up being better off than Sweden and Sweden may end up being better off than quite a few other countries. But I think when considering nations that had a good or better approach more things than death rate should be considered - particularly the death rate right now. I mean Sweden knew going in that their approach would have the result of people dying but considered other factors as well (as all countries have done) and perhaps valued something else in a way Denmark did not.

Just as an example - I think Sweden's idea, in a way, was to get it over with on this first wave. Right? Perhaps that ends up being a "better" call. Perhaps not.

Sweeden's leaders will have made a tragic mistake if by the time the next wave hits, a reasonable treatment or vaccine is available to drastically cut the fatality rate. They played craps with people's lives in face of evidence that suggested their approach was wrong. With that said, some people in Sweeden are voluntarily taking precautions, but since many are not, that is not likely going to matter. In the attached article from 5 days ago, it stated:

"The number of confirmed Swedish Covid-19 deaths has risen to more than 650, as of April 9. That brought the death rate per million in Sweden — Scandinavia’s biggest economy — to about 65. By comparison, Denmark’s rate was near 40 while Norway’s was near 20. "

As of 20 April, Sweeden has over 1580 deaths, a rate of 156 per million, compared to Denmark at 63, and Norway at 33. So Sweeden has grown by 2.4 times, while Denmark has grown by 1.5, and Norway by 1.65 times. More importantly, Denmark's daily cases have been dropping since 7 April, Norway's since 27 March, while Sweeden's daily cases are up and down, without an obvious tailing off.

The attached article also says Sweeden's officials will start shutting things down if they see the need, but it is far too late now. They are so far into this virus without taking action that they almost will get no benefit from a shutdown at this point. I think they are probably past the point of no return, and their craps experiment may have to play out.

Sweden’s government has tried a risky coronavirus strategy. It could backfire.

Critics say the government seeks “herd immunity” from the coronavirus. That could lead to more deaths.

www.vox.com

Everyone is "playing craps" at this point. The idea that you and others do not seem to understand the potentially disastrous effects of a shutdown are mind-boggling. I am not saying you or anyone else should be for opening everything backup, but at least an acknowledgment that the cure might be worse than the disease is more than a legitimate position.
Other countries may be suffering through rolling lockdown over the course of the next 12-18 months while Sweden largely escapes that.

Your post needs editing, because it shows your comments as mine and vice versa. I'll respond after it is corrected.

 

[Saintamaniac]

The line about the cure being worst than the disease is the dumbest bs ever uttered. People using it are ultra concerned about the economy being impacted due to the shutdown. I got news for those dumbasses, there is not economy with no people. There isn't a company around that has at least one worker doing something. So if you put all your workers at risk, you are putting your company at risk. The cure doesn't kill people. The disease does that unless of course you are insinuating that the process of finding a cure actually kills more people than the disease itself. It is simply astonishing the level of stupidity on display at the worst possible moment to be stupid. It's like deciding to cut both your hands off right before going to a meeting where you are required to sign documents. Stupid people with even more stupid ideas should not be listened to right now.

 

[SFIDC3]

It is going to kill who it is going to kill, eventually.

Above is disgusting and wrong....

 

[Optimus Prime]

Posted this in the EE
======================
Let’s talk about sacrifice.

On Wednesday, folks in Maryland — like people in other states and cities across the nation — had to begin wearing face coverings in stores and on public transit to curb the spread of the coronavirus. And outside the rural farm and feed store where I buy our pets’ food, it got ugly.

“Sir, you can’t enter the store without a mask,” a worker stationed outside the entrance said to an older man forging ahead past the fruit sapling and tomato plant display with nothing to hide the scowl on his face. “Sir.”

The man jutted his chin out and pulled his shoulders back.

“This is America,” he spat. “You can’t tell me what I gotta wear.”

A second, larger store employee joined the first guy, silently, and the huffing boomer swatted at the air and returned to his truck.

Yes, this is America, sir.

And buying the stars-and-stripes yard art and truck decals and listening to the country music playing inside that Maryland store isn’t what defines being an American right now.

Clogging the state capital in Michigan, waving American, Trump and a few Confederate flags while chanting “Lock her up” in defiance of Democratic Gov. Gretchen Whitmer’s stay-at-home order — as protesters are doing this week — isn’t living up to that ideal either.

Holding religious services and parties in defiance of social distancing is not American.

Right now? Sacrificing is American.

Wearing the mask, staying at home, innovating, pivoting, doing what you can to keep people safe and working is American.

This is the first time since World War II that all Americans have been asked to sacrifice.

Sure, we had some warm-fuzzy unity in the weeks after the 9/11 attacks in 2001. But the biggest change in behavior for most Americans was airport shoe removal and building security.

The families of those killed and wounded that day, the military and Muslim Americans bore the load on that one. The rest of America moved on, even as the war that began almost two decades ago continues...............

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...um=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_buzz

 

[Optimus Prime]

The tea party is back. I was wondering where they had gone.

You remember them, right? When Barack Obama was in office, these self-styled defenders of limited government and individual liberty took to the streets to protest federal debt, corporate bailouts, government-sponsored health care and a president who they said governed like the king our forefathers rebelled against.

We haven’t heard from them much in the past 3½ years. Not that they shouldn’t have found plenty of fodder for outrage: record deficits and debt; an autocrat in the White House who regularly claims extra-constitutional authority; economic policies that tilt heavily in favor of the wealthy and big business.

Tea party activists have looked the other way on all of these things throughout the presidency of Donald Trump. But now they are appearing again in state capitals across the country, screaming and waving their “Don’t Tread on Me” banners to vent at the lifesaving measures that governors have taken in the face of an epidemic that has already caused upward of 40,000 deaths in the United States.

There is a legitimate — and reasonable — debate to be had about how much economic pain the country should be willing to bear to bring the epidemic under control.

But that is not what we are hearing in their nihilistic fury. Some of them carry Confederate flags and assault weapons as they protest. Theirs is a doctrine fueled not by high-minded principles, but by conspiracy theories and populist resentment.

Tea party 2.0 is proposing a tri-cornered suicide pact: Give them liberty from stay-at-home orders and give them death. And while they are at it, endanger the lives of everyone around them as well.........

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-tea-party-is-back--and-endangering-lives/2020/04/20/e7b30dec-8314-11ea-ae26-989cfce1c7c7_story.html

 

[Intensesaint]

Sweeden's leaders will have made a tragic mistake if by the time the next wave hits, a reasonable treatment or vaccine is available to drastically cut the fatality rate. They played craps with people's lives in the face of evidence that suggested their approach was wrong. With that said, some people in Sweeden are voluntarily taking precautions, but since many are not, that is not likely going to matter. In the attached article from 5 days ago, it stated:

"The number of confirmed Swedish Covid-19 deaths has risen to more than 650, as of April 9. That brought the death rate per million in Sweden — Scandinavia’s biggest economy — to about 65. By comparison, Denmark’s rate was near 40 while Norway’s was near 20. "

As of 20 April, Sweeden has over 1580 deaths, a rate of 156 per million, compared to Denmark at 63, and Norway at 33. So Sweeden has grown by 2.4 times, while Denmark has grown by 1.5, and Norway by 1.65 times. More importantly, Denmark's daily cases have been dropping since 7 April, Norway's since 27 March, while Sweeden's daily cases are up and down, without an obvious tailing off.

The attached article also says Sweeden's officials will start shutting things down if they see the need, but it is probably far too late now. They are so far into this virus without taking sufficient action that they almost will get no benefit from a shutdown at this point. I think they are probably past the point of no return, and their craps experiment may have to play out.

Sweden’s government has tried a risky coronavirus strategy. It could backfire.

Critics say the government seeks “herd immunity” from the coronavirus. That could lead to more deaths.

www.vox.com

I thought Sweden was awesome? Bernie always told us it was.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Silveria Jacobs is not messing around.

When coronavirus cases started increasing in the Caribbean nation of Sint Maarten, the 51-year-old prime minister delivered blunt instructions.

“Simply. Stop. Moving,” Jacobs said in a video address. “If you do not have the type of bread you like in your house, eat crackers. If you do not have bread, eat cereal, eat oats, sardines.”

The April 1 speech, in which Jacobs advised citizens to prepare as though a hurricane were on its way but not to hoard toilet paper, went viral, propelling the previously little-known leader to Internet stardom over her no-nonsense approach to the crisis.

Jacobs is one of several female world leaders who have won recognition as voices of reason amid the coronavirus pandemic. They have attracted praise for effective messaging and decisive action, in stark contrast to the bombastic approaches of several of the world’s most prominent male leaders — including some who face criticism for early fumbles that fueled the spread of the virus.............

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/04/20/female-world-leaders-hailed-voices-reason-amid-coronavirus-chaos/

 

[Optimus Prime]

......But I think there’s another element underlying the push to reopen the economy despite the threat it poses to American lives, a dynamic beyond partisanship that explains why much of the conservative political ecosystem, from politicians and donors to activists and media personalities, has joined the fight to end the lockdown......

In one short month, the United States has made a significant leap toward a kind of emergency social democracy, in recognition of the fact that no individual or community could possibly be prepared for the devastation wrought by the pandemic.

Should the health and economic crisis extend through the year, there’s a strong chance that Americans will move even further down that road, as businesses shutter, unemployment continues to mount and the federal government is the only entity that can keep the entire economy afloat.

But this logic — that ordinary people need security in the face of social and economic volatility — is as true in normal times as it is under crisis.

If something like a social democratic state is feasible under these conditions, then it is absolutely possible when growth is high and unemployment is low. And in the wake of two political campaigns — Bernie Sanders’s and Elizabeth Warren’s — that pushed progressive ideas into the mainstream of American politics, voters might begin to see this essential truth........

Opinion | Trump and His Allies Are Worried About More Than November (Published 2020)

The temporary imposition of popular relief programs in response to the coronavirus makes Republicans nervous.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Lapaz]

I thought Sweden was awesome? Bernie always told us it was.

Though sarcastic, it is typical conservative binary thinking. Bernie is right that Sweden is awesome in most ways, but even Bernie never claimed they were perfect. I wish we followed many of their practices, but certainly not this one. Just like when one criticizes the U.S., it doesn't mean we hate the U.S. and want to leave it; likewise criticizing Sweden doesn't mean we think it is a bad place to live with backwards policies.

 

[Optimus Prime]

 

[Farb]

So, if Democrats in the county in Texas where I live (who are in a substantial minority) were to come out and rally against Trump, you would say that the Republicans are now turning on Trump since the county voted overwhelmingly for Trump in 2016. Because that is the logic you are using.

Do we know that each protester is a Republican (or we can just lump all Repubs and right wing since you guys do anyway) and no Democrats are protesting? We apparently do because that is the logic you are using.

 

[surada]

The line about the cure being worst than the disease is the dumbest bs ever uttered. People using it are ultra concerned about the economy being impacted due to the shutdown. I got news for those dumbasses, there is not economy with no people. There isn't a company around that has at least one worker doing something. So if you put all your workers at risk, you are putting your company at risk. The cure doesn't kill people. The disease does that unless of course you are insinuating that the process of finding a cure actually kills more people than the disease itself. It is simply astonishing the level of stupidity on display at the worst possible moment to be stupid. It's like deciding to cut both your hands off right before going to a meeting where you are required to sign documents. Stupid people with even more stupid ideas should not be listened to right now.

So Trump floats a new conspiracy..

‘More bizarre than usual’: Gov. Cuomo knocks down Trump’s ...
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/04/more-bizarre-than...
Apr 16, 2020 · New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D) on Thursday said it was “bizarre” for the president of the United States to float a conspiracy theory about inflated coronavirus death totals in New York City.

 

[Optimus Prime]

After facing intense criticism for suggesting on Fox News last month that he’d rather perish from the new coronavirus than see instability in the state’s economic system, Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick said last night that he’s thankful Texas is beginning the process of reopening its economy because the restrictions are currently “crushing small businesses” and the economic market.

“I’m sorry to say that I was right on this and I’m thankful that now we are now finally beginning to open up Texas and other states because it’s been long overdue,” he told interview host Tucker Carlson.

“What I said when I was with you that night is there are more important things than living. And that’s saving this country for my children and my grandchildren and saving this country for all of us,” Patrick said. “I don’t want to die, nobody wants to die, but man we’ve got to take some risks and get back in the game and get this country back up and running.”

Hi comments were in reference to a March 23 interview with Carlson where Patrick implied he would rather die from the widely spreading coronavirus than see the economy destroyed for his children and grandchildren by overreaction to the disease.....................

Dan Patrick says 'there are more important things than living' in defense of coronavirus comments

 

[Farb]

The thread is about the corona virus, not YOU.

Well, lets be fair, to most of us it is about the political fallout from the corona virus. For some, I am not going to name names, it is about Trump and only Trump.

 

[Heathen]

Do we know that each protester is a Republican (or we can just lump all Repubs and right wing since you guys do anyway) and no Democrats are protesting? We apparently do because that is the logic you are using.

If I had to put money on it...hmm..

I'm going to say amount of Democrats currently protesting to reopen the government with Trump supporters is probably akin to the amount of Republicans, proportionally, involved in the March for Science rallies. Common sense just dictates that, right?

IE very, very minimal if any

To be clear..I try not to operate or base my judgment of scenarios purely on partisan lines. If Republicans were more progressive than Democrats, I'd probably be a Republican. It's just that the GOP has made a name for itself being infamously 'anti-science' in their positions on so many issues.

 

[Farb]

If I had to put money on it...hmm..

I'm going to say amount of Democrats currently protesting to reopen the government with Trump supporters is probably akin to the amount of Republicans, proportionally, involved in the March for Science rallies. Common sense just dictates that, right?

IE very, very minimal if any

I remember several here were wanting to bet that the fish tank cleaner poisoning couple were Republicans. Stupid people on both sides.

I have no problem with protesting if it is done peacefully and they don't inconvenience the normal day to day of those caring on their lives.
I also think it is only smart, on 2 levels to protest in masks(if legal) and still work the social distancing. The first reason is safely and the 2nd is that it will take away the first stick that the other side want to use beat in order to dis-empower the protest.