All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (4 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[Beach Friends]

Your liberty to swing your fist ends just where my nose begins.

That depends where your nose is.

 

[Heathen]

I think it is pretty straightforward. We don't need the labor, we don't need the extra risk of screening immigrants (or extra patients from those who tested positive).

I know it's tempting to mix the two, but being a citizen of a nation should mean something.

One of the things being a citizen should mean is that we share similar values - in the case of our great nation one of those values is that we value freedom from dictators like that crazy woman in MI.

Ignoring the 'dictators' comment, because I believe it irrelevant, this still doesn't answer the irony that is denying people entry into our country to 'protect' us from the virus while encouraging our own people to gather together. It's quite literally hypocritical in every conceivable way.

I am glad to see that patriots are letting it be known that we will not tolerate arbitrary limits on our rights. Good for them - maybe politicians will take notice and think twice about the orders they sign.

As someone said earlier in this thread -- I think we see 'patriots' differently. People like Rosa Park are patriots because they protested vengeful, hateful inequality. People like the MAGA fans rejecting science are not, and not because they don't love this country -- but because they DIRECTLY endanger their fellow citizens and reject aforementioned scientific consensus, and do it arrogantly. Rosa Parks and black protestors faced beatings, lynchings, being sprayed with fire hoses, being spit on. These angry protesters? Police do nothing.

Oh, you had a few courageous nurses standing in front of cars shuttling large groups of people. That seems draconian.

Surely you can understand the difference.

The government is not going to be able to keep us locked down forever. I know that some people will welcome the government taking full control and responsibility for their lives. But, most will not and that is what they are saying in a relatively polite way.

Hopefully the message is being heard and we can unite to get through this together- as free citizens.

Sure, as long as Trump loyalists realize that they'll have the blood of the fellow citizens on their hands when they engage in this foolishness.

Again, I ask...Is the scientific consensus wrong and are Trump supporters right?

 

[brandon]

That depends where your nose is.

It’s on my face.

 

[Beach Friends]

Ignoring the 'dictators' comment, because I believe it irrelevant, this still doesn't answer the irony that is denying people entry into our country to 'protect' us from the virus while encouraging our own people to gather together. It's quite literally hypocritical in every conceivable way.



As someone said earlier in this thread -- I think we see 'patriots' differently. People like Rosa Park are patriots because they protested vengeful, hateful inequality. People like the MAGA fans rejecting science are not, and not because they don't love this country -- but because they DIRECTLY endanger their fellow citizens and reject aforementioned scientific consensus, and do it arrogantly. Rosa Parks and black protestors faced beatings, lynchings, being sprayed with fire hoses, being spit on. These angry protesters? Police do nothing.

Oh, you had a few courageous nurses standing in front of cars shuttling large groups of people. That seems draconian.

Surely you can understand the difference.



Sure, as long as Trump loyalists realize that they'll have the blood of the fellow citizens on their hands when they engage in this foolishness.

Again, I ask...Is the scientific consensus wrong and are Trump supporters right?

What scientific consensus? Who was the epidemiologist who decided that the risk of planting tomatoes was so great that we must stop the sale of tomato seeds? Where is the peer reviewed study that reaches the conclusion someone must be prohibited from traveling from one home that they own to another? What scientist made the determination that people should not be able to be home repair items? Have the scientists really weighed out the cost benefit analysis of the government declaring that medical procedures must be postponed ?

And really, don't pretend that the science is settled that the health costs of the Sweedish model are greater than the Chinese lock you in your apartment from the outside model.

 

[Dragon]

What scientific consensus? Who was the epidemiologist who decided that the risk of planting tomatoes was so great that we must stop the sale of tomato seeds? Where is the peer reviewed study that reaches the conclusion someone must be prohibited from traveling from one home that they own to another? What scientist made the determination that people should not be able to be home repair items? Have the scientists really weighed out the cost benefit analysis of the government declaring that medical procedures must be postponed ?

And really, don't pretend that the science is settled that the health costs of the Sweedish model are greater than the Chinese lock you in your apartment from the outside model.

Well - results do speak for themself. ...

Almost 3 times as many dead in Sweden vs, Denmark (adjusted for population size) where every other factors are more or less the same.

 

[Lapaz]

I think we have a responsibility to stand up for liberty.

For those state governors who thought we lost that spirit, they seriously miscalculated.

Any encroachments on our rights should only be those that are necessary and should be in the least restrictive manner possible.

When governors sign orders that are arbitrary and capricious that's a tell tale sign that they have not made any attempt to strike the right balance between public health and individual freedom. The latter was never even considered and that is a mistake.

There is room for debate as to whether restrictions like many of our states have invoked or much looser restrictions like you see in Sweeden is the right approach. Only time will tell whether there was any real benefit to killing our economy.

But, what some of these states have done does not even fall within the parameters of what may be reasonable. There is no excuse for that and people are rightfully letting it be known that we have not yet reached the point where it will be blindly accepted.

What are examples of states doing unreasonable things?

 

[Dragon]

That doesn't answer the question of how the mortality rates will compare in a year's time. Also, despite similarities I think there are difference between the two countries aren't there?

Very little actually. We were once one nation, our languages are no more different than what you could find in the different dialects in the US.
We have the same type of government, and free movements across boarders. I could move to Sweden tomorrow and have the rigths to the same benefits as I receive here. Both have universal healthcare and free education and subsidized housing. Many live in one country and work in another.

 

[surada]

I'm pro imigration, but it probably makes sense to halt imigration for the time being. I don't think Trump used logic, but his xenophobic instincts led to a good decision. I do think it protects everyone, including the immigrant's nation, if they return to their country. It reduces additional testing requirements. Also, these people don't get benefits, so they are in more danger. It is a diversion, but alas, probably the right decision. It won't make much of a difference, but I'm not going to dwell on this. I'm going to continue to worry about what matters most now, which is focusing on testing or continued social distancing.

Its a political gesture that comes late.. and is effectively meaningless.. Tourists aren't traveling.

As late as early March Trump said the US had 15 cases and they would miraculously go away. Now we have 13,000 dead and Trump is spinning like a weather vane in a hurricane trying to pin the blame on somebody.


Trump fans flames of Chinese lab coronavirus theory during ...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/15/...
5 days ago · Trump fans flames of Chinese lab coronavirus theory during daily briefing ... more extreme conspiracy theories have suggested that it was engineered as a …

 

[Lapaz]

That doesn't answer the question of how the mortality rates will compare in a year's time. Also, despite similarities I think there are difference between the two countries aren't there?

Why should Dragon answer a question that you didn't ask? None of us know how the mortality rate will compare in a year, but we can see the current conditions, and we know the current conditions don't warrant having parades to "free" us to infect others. There is evidence trickling out that the time may come soon, but being rash and selfish right now by exacerbating the spread is disgusting. Anti-body tests have just started to evaluate how far this virus has spread. If it turns out to be less than 0.5% fatality rate, then I believe we can resume opening up, but since no one has immunity, 0.5% is still too high to back to normal activities, because if everyone in the U.S. gets it, that is still 1.5M deaths, and that is not acceptable. I would have to see a 0.1% fatality rate at most to believe we can go back to normal. Unfortunately, the estimated fatality rate is still 1 to 3%, which equates to 3 to 9 million deaths. The only definitive way to keep those numbers down is to delay the spread until medical intervention can keep those deaths down. If the serum anti-body tests reveal new science based evidence that the fatality rate is much lower and about 0.1%, then we can go back to normal. In the meantime, we need to delay the spread. We can't continue the shutdown as we are today until the vaccine is available, but we also can't go back to normal. We have to have special provisions to continue to minimize the spread until medicine catches up.

 

[surada]

Feb. 27, 2020, 1:39 AM UTC
By Jane C. Timm
After coming under fire for painting an overly rosy picture of the coronavirus threat, President Donald Trump hewed closely to the facts Wednesday in a news conference at the White House.
Flanked by government officials, he accurately told the nation that the risk to Americans remains low, that the country should prepare out of an abundance of caution and that a vaccine was in the works.

Here's what the president said and what the facts are.
Claim: The risk to Americans is low
"The risk to the American people remains very low," Trump said during the news conference.
Later, pressed on whether he agreed with health officials' view that coronavirus will inevitably spread in the U.S., he said: "I don't think it's inevitable. It probably will. It possibly will. It could be at a very small level, or it could be at a larger level. Whatever happens, we're totally prepared."

snip

Claim: A vaccine is coming in a 'fairly quick manner'
"We're rapidly developing a vaccine," Trump said. "The vaccine is coming along well, and in speaking to the doctors we think this is something that we can develop fairly rapidly."
Later, he added: "But that's a little bit like the flu. It's a little like the regular flu that we have flu shots for. And we'll essentially have a flu shot for this in a fairly quick manner."

Fact checking Trump's comments on coronavirus

Trump accurately described the risk to Americans as low — although some health officials have issued stronger warnings about an inevitable spread.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Lapaz]

What scientific consensus? Who was the epidemiologist who decided that the risk of planting tomatoes was so great that we must stop the sale of tomato seeds? Where is the peer reviewed study that reaches the conclusion someone must be prohibited from traveling from one home that they own to another? What scientist made the determination that people should not be able to be home repair items? Have the scientists really weighed out the cost benefit analysis of the government declaring that medical procedures must be postponed ?

And really, don't pretend that the science is settled that the health costs of the Sweedish model are greater than the Chinese lock you in your apartment from the outside model.

I'll turn those questions around on you. You show me the epidemiologists that recommended not gardening or repairing your home? I have been watching an endless number of epidemiologists on TV, and I haven't heard any make such recommendations.

The Sweedish model doesn't make common sense if the actual fatality rate remains at 1 to 3%, because a vast number more will die due to overwhelming their medical system, and not just due to Covid. They may get lucky if the fatality rate ends up being low, but playing craps is not a sensible model.

 

[Beach Friends]

I'll turn those questions around on you. You show me the epidemiologists that recommended not gardening or repairing your home? I have been watching an endless number of epidemiologists on TV, and I haven't heard any make such recommendations.

Great. Now you tell me how such restrictions are justified based on science.

 

[Lapaz]

Great. Now you tell me how such restrictions are justified based on science.

Why should I tell you that gardening or fixing your house should be restricted? I didn't say those should be restricted. You claimed that epidemiologists are claiming that, which I think is bunk, so I asked you to show us which are making that recommendation.

 

[surada]

That depends where your nose is.

At least 7 new coronavirus cases appear to be related to Wisconsin's election, Milwaukee health commissioner says

Officials have identified seven people who appear to have contracted COVID-19 through activities related to the April 7 election, Milwaukee Health Commissioner Jeanette Kowalik said Monday.

Six of the cases are in voters and one is a poll worker, Kowalik said.

At least 7 new coronavirus cases appear to be related to Wisconsin's election, Milwaukee health commissioner says
Tuesday marks two weeks since the election that saw voters stand in line at five polling places in the City of Milwaukee, many for hours on end.

www.jsonline.com

 

[surada]

It’s on my face.

Yesterday marked the 3 month anniversary of the first case of Covid-19 in the US being diagnosed, and the Trump administration still has no coherent national testing plan in place.

Mike Pence held a phone call with Democratic senators last week on the pandemic and got the crap beat out of him for being unable to answer questions about testing.

And Donald Trump, who told us almost 2 months ago that "anyone who wants a test can get one" continues to lie.

"President Trump’s claim that states have enough tests to reopen “is just absolutely false. It’s not accurate to say there’s plenty of testing out there and the governors should just get it done. That’s just not being straightforward” - Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan, 4/19/20.

 

[JimEverett]

[/QUOTE]

Well - results do speak for themself. ...

Almost 3 times as many dead in Sweden vs, Denmark (adjusted for population size) where every other factors are more or less the same.

Denmark may end up being better off than Sweden and Sweden may end up being better off than quite a few other countries. But I think when considering nations that had a good or better approach more things than death rate should be considered - particularly the death rate right now. I mean Sweden knew going in that their approach would have the result of people dying but considered other factors as well (as all countries have done) and perhaps valued something else in a way Denmark did not.

Just as an example - I think Sweden's idea, in a way, was to get it over with on this first wave. Right? Perhaps that ends up being a "better" call. Perhaps not.

 

[Beach Friends]

At least 7 new coronavirus cases appear to be related to Wisconsin's election, Milwaukee health commissioner says

Officials have identified seven people who appear to have contracted COVID-19 through activities related to the April 7 election, Milwaukee Health Commissioner Jeanette Kowalik said Monday.

Six of the cases are in voters and one is a poll worker, Kowalik said.

At least 7 new coronavirus cases appear to be related to Wisconsin's election, Milwaukee health commissioner says
Tuesday marks two weeks since the election that saw voters stand in line at five polling places in the City of Milwaukee, many for hours on end.

www.jsonline.com

As usual, I have no idea why you decided to reply to my post with what you did.

 

[Heathen]

What scientific consensus?

The scientific consensus around the measures to prevent the spread of a deadly novel virus.

COVID-19: Never has clear science been more vital

Direct communication from scientists is crucial to understand and react to the coronavirus.

www.weforum.org

Are you arguing that there is no scientific consensus as such?

Who was the epidemiologist who decided that the risk of planting tomatoes was so great that we must stop the sale of tomato seeds?

I haven't heard of this person. Would like more information though.

Where is the peer reviewed study that reaches the conclusion someone must be prohibited from traveling from one home that they own to another? What scientist made the determination that people should not be able to be home repair items? Have the scientists really weighed out the cost benefit analysis of the government declaring that medical procedures must be postponed ?

We can take these cases individually and discuss them. The biggest and most dangerous issue to me is that you seem to be arguing that the antithesis of preventative measures during a pandemic is somehow justified. You surely must see how someone would take issue with that.