All Things LGBTQ+ (6 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[Saintman2884]

So what is an example of the left codifying their worst tendencies?

Virtue-signalling through the media? Cancel culture, the religion of wokeness, what defines being "woke" and banning books, words or songs that they deemed too be insensitive even though "Star-Spangled Banner has words in it that could possibly be deemed racially insensitive. (Read the second stanza of the original song) Should we ban songs that have drug references in them from the 1960's or promoted drug use while we're at it if some people are too offended by it. Being arrogant enough like Terry McAuliffe and telling Va. voters, " These aren't your forking kids anymore, you have no choice or seat at the table when in comes to curriculum " and then he doubles down on it, despite pleas from top Congressional Dems to own up and shut up , and apologize, he waits until its too late and he loses a Va. Governor's Race that he probably should've won. But, no he had to be a showboat, looking like a idiot, dancing around on stage, pretending he wasnt in any trouble, at all.

You typed a lot of stuff that has nothing to do with what I posted, but what is it that you are trying to say with that comment? The way it reads, you seem to think that teachers are laying blame for slavery on their white students. Is that what you think it is happening?

In the wrong hands, anything is bad. And...?

Zealous, over-ambitious academics with a agenda to push exists on both spectrums pushing and going beyond the boundaries of what CRT is supposed to teach and what THEY WANT IT TO BE is a problem. They tend to be very intellectually dishonest.

 

[MT15]

So what I asked for is an example of the left trying to codify their excesses, similar to the way Rs are trying to actually ban books and certain words with laws they are passing in state legislatures. That’s what I meant by codify. Putting the excess into actual law. You didn’t give me any examples of that I don’t think.

And as far as people being fired for expressing unsavory opinions, the R party worked very hard to give all employers the right to fire anyone at any time for any reason. At least in my state they did. So yay for that. It’s not a “mob” that is causing people to lose their jobs, it is generally a corporation that is deciding the bad publicity isn’t worth keeping the employee. I agree with you that it sometimes goes too far but it doesn’t only happen to one side of the political spectrum. It’s actually pretty evenly divided as far as I can tell.

As for Bill Maher, I have never watched him except very occasionally. My BS meter pegged the first time I watched him, and I have never really cared for him. I’m not really sure what he has to do with this discussion.

 

[SamAndreas]

Bill Maher does that edgy "liberal" humor that ALL liberals are stereotyped by conservatives to adore.

I expect more liberals are in to it than conservatives however i'm not into it either. I suppose it's because I don't follow the sort trivia that would be needed to grasp the "dropped line" connections that would make it edgy and funny for me,

On the other hand I usually do get conservative "get your goat" style humor.

 

[Taurus]

Al Franken.

Decades-old theater kid shenanigans lead to one of the foremost supporters of women's rights being run out of town on a rail.

That kind of "cancel culture" is self defeating and stupid.

 

[SystemShock]

Zealous, over-ambitious academics with a agenda to push exists on both spectrums pushing and going beyond the boundaries of what CRT is supposed to teach and what THEY WANT IT TO BE is a problem. They tend to be very intellectually dishonest.

So you repeat yourself... sure, zealots with anything in their hands are a problem no matter what... again... so what?

From where I stand, it isn't academics or the mythical left who want this so-called CRT to be a problem.

 

[bird]

So you repeat yourself... sure, zealots with anything in their hands are a problem no matter what... again... so what?

From where I stand, it isn't academics or the mythical left who want this so-called CRT to be a problem.

Anything that challenges established “truths” is deemed a ”problem”.

 

[coldseat]

Do you want idealogues teaching a distorted, embittered view of history or teaching historical facts?

If you want to tolerate idealogues who might make an agenda of sensitive, complex history, then lets allow intelligent design teachers to teach the Earth is 5,000 years old and that evolution is still just a theory?

By stating you question that way, you're underlying assumption is that history in schools have, to this point, been taught in a way that was accurate and without an ideological agenda. Being that we know how much grade school history has been distorted and glossed over to appease a populce/government that didn't want to contend with and own up to the disastrous affects of its beliefs and policies throughout its history, that is far from truth. What you're doing now is no different, in many ways.

 

[Saintman2884]

Anything that challenges established “truths” is deemed a ”problem”.

So is going way overboard with it and not teaching CRT responsibly. CRT is a sensitive, complex matter of discussing systemic racism, discrimination against minorities in this nation's founding, development, and growth. If you have HS and colleges hire undisciplined idealogues who use their positions as some semi-divine social crusader/salvation roles and their allowed mostly free hands, then eventually they become problems and not just in terms of bruising people's egos or feelings.

Ever heard of former Colorado professor Ward Churchill? He wrote a particularly infamous tract praising the 9/11 hijackers after Sept. 11 with an essay calling the businessmen/businesswomen who died in the Twin Towers "little Eichmann's". It took several years and pretty nasty local fight from his opponents who.also claimed he lied about his Native American heritage, even among prominent Native American activists.

 

[Saintman2884]

By stating you question that way, you're underlying assumption is that history in schools have, to this point, been taught in a way that was accurate and without an ideological agenda. Being that we know how much grade school history has been distorted and glossed over to appease a populce/government that didn't want to be contend and own up to the disastrous affects of its beliefs and policies throughout its history, that is far from truth. What you're doing now is no different, in many ways.

You act and behave incredulously as if we're the only country on this planet that doesn't discuss at-length, or openly its darkest chapters in its nation's history?
In Japanese historical textbooks, some major military defeats like against the Soviets in 1939 Manchuria that prompted the Soviet-Japanese Neutrality Pact in 1940 are wittled down and incidents like abducting, raping Western, Chinese, Korean women before, during WWII, "comfort women" remain a bit of a hot topic thats not exactly willingly discussed in Japanese classrooms. Also, another major historical discrepancy is how original Japanese native inhabitants, Ainu, were systematically and forceably suppressed and bottled up by invading conquerors/settlers thousands of years ago similar.to how European and Western settlers pushed Native American tribes further and further away from coast-to-coast over the course of 400 years after Columbus's "discovery" of the New World. IMHO, The Vikings deserve that unique, hallowed honor and privilege.

 

[MT15]

So what? Are we to excuse bad behavior because “all the other kids are doing it”?

 

[Saintman2884]

So what? Are we to excuse bad behavior because “all the other kids are doing it”?

I'm not sure where you're going with this or what angle you're coming at me from? Cold gave me this impression in his replies that he was singularly surprised and shocked that somehow we're the only major nation struggling and in some respects, have portions of our populace fighting or resisting discussing controversial, difficult historical topics from our nation's history.

 

[Taurus]

I'm not sure where you're going with this or what angle you're coming at me from? Cold gave me this impression in his replies that he was singularly surprised and shocked that somehow we're the only major nation struggling and in some respects, have portions of our populace fighting or resisting discussing controversial, difficult historical topics from our nation's history.

We're supposed to be better than that.

Where a Japanese kid has no clue about Nanking or Bataan, an American should know about slavery, Wounded Knee and the Trail of Tears.

 

[MT15]

Yes, just because other nations do crappy things is no excuse for the US to do crappy things.

 

[Saintman2884]

Yes, just because other nations do crappy things is no excuse for the US to do crappy things.

Did I ever say it was? I just get the impression sometimes from political activists, journalists, reporters or even politicians sometimes like we're somehow the Alpha and Omega of systematic racism, discrimination, bigotry towards racial or ethnic minorities compared to UK, France, Germany, especially Russia, and even Japan and China?

One almost gets the impression we're being singularly singled out and that's always struck me as intellectually dishonest and single-minded from a historical perspective.

 

[MT15]

When your response to criticism of US actions is to point out that other nations do it too, it just comes off as making excuses. Nobody was talking about the rest of the world, this discussion is centered on the US.

Calling it intellectually dishonest is a smear, when nobody was saying that we are the only one doing it. If coldseat had said the US is alone among the world in this revisionist history stuff, that would be intellectually dishonest.

 

[coldseat]

You act and behave incredulously as if we're the only country on this planet that doesn't discuss at-length, or openly its darkest chapters in its nation's history?
In Japanese historical textbooks, some major military defeats like against the Soviets in 1939 Manchuria that prompted the Soviet-Japanese Neutrality Pact in 1940 are wittled down and incidents like abducting, raping Western, Chinese, Korean women before, during WWII, "comfort women" remain a bit of a hot topic thats not exactly willingly discussed in Japanese classrooms. Also, another major historical discrepancy is how original Japanese native inhabitants, Ainu, were systematically and forceably suppressed and bottled up by invading conquerors/settlers thousands of years ago similar.to how European and Western settlers pushed Native American tribes further and further away from coast-to-coast over the course of 400 years after Columbus's "discovery" of the New World. IMHO, The Vikings deserve that unique, hallowed honor and privilege.

I'm not acting any kind of way. I'm just stating what you're doing.

I don't want an activist history tought on schools, whatever that is. But I do want it to be taught accurately to the best of our ability. And that includes teaching honestly about our nations orgins, including the role that slavery played in that history. It includes the compromise the founders made in regards to slavery to form the union. It includes the reality and brutality of what slavery was. It includes the factual reasons for why the civil war was fought. It includes teaching honestly about Native American and the many injustice they have suffered at the hands of our government. It includes Japanese-American internments during WWII. Includes Cesar Cavez and the National Farms Workers Association. And it includes the multitude of positive contributions that minorities and minority communities have contributed to this country since its origin. Along with all of the other US history that us commonly taught in schools.

I don't want that because I want white Americans to feel shame. I want that because as Americans, we all have a shared responsibility to acknowledge our past wrongs and account for them. Part of that is through education. I thought that used to be a shared ideal. That was something that made us different.

 

[Saintman2884]

I'm not acting any kind of way. I'm just stating what you're doing.

I don't want an activist history tought on schools, whatever that is. But I do want it to be taught accurately to the best of our ability. And that includes teaching honestly about our nations orgins, including the role that slavery played in that history. It includes the compromise the founders made in regards to slavery to form the union. It includes the reality and brutality of what slavery was. It includes the factual reasons for why the civil war was fought. It includes teaching honestly about Native American and the many injustice they have suffered at the hands of our government. It includes Japanese-American internments during WWII. Includes Cesar Cavez and the National Farms Workers Association. And it includes the multitude of positive contributions that minorities and minority communities have contributed to this country since its origin. Along with all of the other US history that us commonly taught in schools.

I don't want that because I want white Americans to feel shame. I want that because as Americans, we all have a shared responsibility to acknowledge our past wrongs and account for them. Part of that is through education. I thought that used to be a shared ideal. That was something that made us different.

The 3/5th's Compromise, that's what you were referring to that the Founding Fathers passed through the Constitutional Convention in 1787-88, even though Thomas Jefferson and James Mason, were two main Va. delegates who argued that any nation that preserved and defended slavery was "bringing on the judgement of the Lord upon them".

You might to do some research on the 1804 Haitian Revolution led Toussaint L'Overture, a former Haitian slave turned revolutionary leader who was captured by Napoleon's French Grande Armee when they initially tried to recapture the island after losing it first after the game onset of the French Revolution in 1789. Toussaint was captured, imprisoned on a remote island off the northeastern coast of France near Calais region but his followers eventually won the conflict and there was a massive, bloody purge of white and even French Creole settlers and residents who fled after the French military authorities decided to limit their losses and that was essentially, the end of Napoleon's North American grand empire, and decided to sell the La. Territory and city of New Orleans to American representatives via Talleyrand, Napoleon's Foreign Minister.

Its not discussed too much in American history textbooks but many Southern antebellum plantation owners viewed the Haitian Revolution as a successful slave revolt and what figuratively could or would happen to them if such a large-scale revolt occured here? Thats when the Southern mentality of supporting the gradual abolition of slavery ended and along with Eli Whitney's cotton gin invention, spurred on and consolidated the rapid growth and expansion of slavery westward.
Before 1804, there was a sufficient degree of support for gradualism, the gradual abolition of slavery supported by early anti-slavery opponents Quakers, liberal Pentecostals, and urban intellectuals even in deep rural Southern states like North Carolina and Virginia, after the Haitian Revolution, the deepening fear of a large-scale regional slave revolt succeeding ala similar to Haiti made abolition of slavery more of a Northern movement in huge, industrialized cities and those schisms grew worse and more extreme over the next 60 years.

Ask yourself: Why didnt U.S. recognize Haiti as an independent, sovereign country until 1865? 61 years after they'd won independence and after severe, mass reparations payments were forced upon them by vindictive French colonial authorities? The year the Civil War ended is when we decided to realize the obvious. That right there should tell a lot of people something.

 

[SystemShock]

So is going way overboard with it and not teaching CRT responsibly. CRT is a sensitive, complex matter of discussing systemic racism, discrimination against minorities in this nation's founding, development, and growth. If you have HS and colleges hire undisciplined idealogues who use their positions as some semi-divine social crusader/salvation roles and their allowed mostly free hands, then eventually they become problems and not just in terms of bruising people's egos or feelings.

Ever heard of former Colorado professor Ward Churchill? He wrote a particularly infamous tract praising the 9/11 hijackers after Sept. 11 with an essay calling the businessmen/businesswomen who died in the Twin Towers "little Eichmann's". It took several years and pretty nasty local fight from his opponents who.also claimed he lied about his Native American heritage, even among prominent Native American activists.

So you are just going to stick with your "bad if taken to extremes" line... ok, so what's your solution? Not to teach a subject because a zealot may use the opportunity to push an agenda or create chaos? If schools are going to stop teaching subjects because some zealot may use the teaching in some nefarious way, then we would have no schools.