All Things LGBTQ+ (3 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[samiam5211]

So, it was not taught until the right pushed back on it and since the right pushed back on it, you guys started teaching a thing that was never taught? Why, to 'own the cons'? To punish children?

What is the lefts position on this? Is it not being taught or is it being a taught and that is a good thing? I keep hearing both on this board.

https://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2...-lower-merion-students-about-systemic-racism/

(it is Rufo- so fair waring)

https://blmweekd65.weebly.com/for-educators.html

https://www.upsd83.org/family_resources/social_justice__antiracism__and_equity_resources/books_for_children





https://johnmuirschool.org/reading-resources

I am bored now. I am sure the reply will be 'but I don't see it 'actually' being taught, like in front of a class and the teacher doesn't use the letters 'CRT'.

Because the pushback has reminded us just how poorly some people understand racism.

The anti-CRT movement has caused CRT to become more popular.

 

[SystemShock]

CRT/Gender theory are very real in public education, but I completely understand why the left wants to pretend they are not. So much push back when the right pushed back on something that doesn't exist.

Again, CRT is just a dog whistle. A minority that was enslaved and discriminated against for close to two centuries faces generational disadvantages... shocking!!!!! Who would've thought?

And what the hell is "gender theory"?

 

[SystemShock]

I am college educated in Cellular and Molecular Biology (Bachelor's of Science) and I can assure you "gender theory" is absolutely scientific and everyone trying to insist there is just two genders doesn't understand science.

I'll borrow from this link

Below are excepts:

We are really just scratching the surface too, I could go into nondisjunction during meiosis and how someone could have too much x or y or too little x or y because some of the genes got stuck at the chiasmata during crossing over, but this is a good high level understanding of how genders are actually a spectrum.

I am no expert, but... (musings alert)

I thought gender and sex were two different things... and I don't think there is a chromosome pairing that defines an individual as "drag queen" or "gender outlaw".

It may be that the 2 sex model is an over simplification based on chromosome pairings/count, but the overwhelming majority of mammals are born with either a penis or a uterus, and very specific secondary physical characteristics. I have read many estimates of the percentage of people who are born with chromosome pairings/combinations outside XX/XY, as high as 40%, but no concrete data is available as that's something that needs to be tested in individuals and the majority of people born outside XX/XY don't normally express deviations from the plumbing they are born with.

I follow a youtube channel, Rationality Rules, and the channel creator always starts his videos with "well, hello, my fellow apes", since we humans are hominids. And while chromosome variations exist in all great apes, we have no problem identifying a male or female chimpanzee or gorilla, even when they act like the other. Now, a gorilla can't tell you which gender it identifies as.. or if it is aware of what gender is, beyond physical appearance/smell of other gorillas.

Of course, none of the other hominids have developed clothing they can wear to identify as anything, or constantly changing beauty standards... maybe in time they will evolve enough to create them... they have started using tools after all.

I forget the name of the comedian, which happens to be transgender, but she's got a bit that goes something like "no need to be so confused... there's penis, there is vagina, and there is both'.

 

[Farb]

Again, CRT is just a dog whistle. A minority that was enslaved and discriminated against for close to two centuries faces generational disadvantages... shocking!!!!! Who would've thought?

And what the hell is "gender theory"?

Does CRT lead to correcting he problem or just create more racism? Do we need to punish white people in order to help black people? I don't think the answer to racism is creating more racism.

Gender theory is the push to 'educate' children about being trans, gay and all the other things that are not "cis" or whatever. Basically a dude with a penis is considered a woman if he feels like it and we must accept it and play along as a society.

 

[SystemShock]

Does CRT lead to correcting he problem or just create more racism? Do we need to punish white people in order to help black people? I don't think the answer to racism is creating more racism.

Who said anything about punishing white people? Who is being punished, and for what? How is teaching facts about the history of the country creates more racism?

In Germany, students are thought about WWII, rather extensively, and it certainly it isn't creating more nazis.

Gender theory is the push to 'educate' children about being trans, gay and all the other things that are not "cis" or whatever. Basically a dude with a penis is considered a woman if he feels like it and we must accept it and play along as a society.

Which schools are teaching this "gender theory"? I'd like to see what that curriculum looks like.

 

[coldseat]

Gender theory is the push to 'educate' children about being trans, gay and all the other things that are not "cis" or whatever. Basically a dude with a penis is considered a woman if he feels like it and we must accept it and play along as a society.

Every time I read one of your post on LGBTQ, I'm very grateful your kind is dying out. Younger generations are just a lot more accepting of differences among people and there isn't much you and your kind can do to put that genie back in the bottle, no matter how hard you try.

Fyi, society has already mostly adjusted to gay and trans people. It's decided to accept them and move along, with the exception of your little enclaves of regression.

 

[Saintman2884]

Who said anything about punishing white people? Who is being punished, and for what? How is teaching facts about the history of the country creates more racism?

In Germany, students are thought about WWII, rather extensively, and it certainly it isn't creating more nazis.


Which schools are teaching this "gender theory"? I'd like to see what that curriculum looks like.

In Germany, modern-day Germans aren't somehow being singled out as somehow responsible for the Holocaust, the concentration camps system, how an embittered, angry, disaffected post-WWI generation of Germans, felt Weimar Republic was forced upon them, and they embodied large, monetary indemnity payments to victorious Allies at the Versailles Peace Conference in 1919 as well as the " war guilt " clause Germany was forced to sign, saying they'd started WWI, which is absurd because Germany wasnt responsible for solely starting WWI. Hitler was a political demogague but he's one who knew and could seemlessly sap into the extreme amount of frustration, hatred and disillusionment many Germans of all political stripes felt but whom many other mainstream parties couldnt or wouldn't address, and the left-leaning SPD and KPD were too busy infighting amongst themselves or too subservient to Moscow to work together to try and stop Hitler(Stalin forbade an alliance of German left-wing and liberal parties to come together and fight Hitler legally or electorally because he felt the SPD-dominated Weimar Republic were full of "socio-economic traitors and fascists". Today's Germans aren't made to feel guilty or somehow responsible for the actions and decisions of their grandparents or some don't accuse of it being perceived that way.
Besides, the history of European antisemitism runs centuries deeper and is infinitely intertwined in more countries history, cultures, and their treatment of Jewish populations than just Germany from 1933-45. Spanish Inquisition deliberately and periodically targeted conversoes (former Jews turned Catholic converts who began practicing their old faiths in secret) for over 350 years until the 1830's, Jews were forbidden to live or practice their faith in England from for nearly 300 years from reign of Edward I till Oliver Cromwell allowed them back in the 1650's. Jews were forced to live in walled-off isolated ghettos in cities, towns across Holland, Papal States, and other various Italian city-states away from the Christian population, couldnt join guilds, were only allowed to work in certain industries, had to wear certain clothes or insignias, openly stating or.signifying who they were.


Some critics have argued that CRT, in the wrong hands of a few, more zealous idealogues educators.with an agenda to push might try and make it explicitly racial and tie in America's long history of systemic racism and discrimination to anti-white tirades or polemics. Lets not be naive that some teachers and educators don't have or won't push certain agendas in HS and colleges, regardless of political affiliation or be intellectually dishonest with how they teach or approach certain curriculum.

 

[MT15]

So, Saintman, you are saying that because some teachers will behave in a manner that causes problems that the answer is to prohibit teaching the actual history of slavery and racial intolerance in this country? I think I know you well enough that you don’t want that.

This is the problem with the way the right handles these issues. They over-react to a very minor issue in some localities to the point where they want to ban books, and even certain words from the classroom. Their solution is far, far worse than the actual problem, IMO.

It’s better to bruise a few feelings than to impose censorship. And I am sure about that.

 

[bird]

In Germany, modern-day Germans aren't somehow being singled out as somehow responsible for the Holocaust, the concentration camps system, how an embittered, angry, disaffected post-WWI generation of Germans, felt Weimar Republic was forced upon them, and they embodied large, monetary indemnity payments to victorious Allies at the Versailles Peace Conference in 1919 as well as the " war guilt " clause Germany was forced to sign, saying they'd started WWI, which is absurd because Germany wasnt responsible for solely starting WWI. Hitler was a political demogague but he's one who knew and could seemlessly sap into the extreme amount of frustration, hatred and disillusionment many Germans of all political stripes felt but whom many other mainstream parties couldnt or wouldn't address, and the left-leaning SPD and KPD were too busy infighting amongst themselves or too subservient to Moscow to work together to try and stop Hitler(Stalin forbade an alliance of German left-wing and liberal parties to come together and fight Hitler legally or electorally because he felt the SPD-dominated Weimar Republic were full of "socio-economic traitors and fascists".

Some critics have argued that CRT, in the wrong hands of a few, more idealogues educators.with an agenda to push might try and make it explicitly racial and tie in America's long history of systemic racism and discrimination to anti-white tirades. Lets not be naive that some teachers and educators don't have or won't push agendas in HS and colleges

Everybody has an agenda. It is called belief structures. That being said CRT has "Race" as its middle word. White people (such as myself) do not have collective guilt for actions and events in the past. They do have an obligation that such actions are not repeated under the false guise of alleged free speech. They have an obligation to abandon stereotyping based upon the false construct called race.

Everyone engages in judging in virtually every social situation. The use of the state monopoly of violence to establish legal and quasi-legal restrictions is unacceptable. Claims that morality can not be legislated are false on their face. Any legislation that establishes a prohibition on a particular behavior is legislating morality. Social pressures combined with legislative morality in prohibiting discriminatory behaviors are required, period.

The actions of people who established a system of violence based upon enslaving others and allowing that system to continue for centuries followed by legal/quasi-legal restrictions on those same people are something that is history and as such must be taught. To forget or, worse, deliberately abandon, history is to allow for the ascendancy of authoritarian charlatans.

 

[Saintman2884]

So, Saintman, you are saying that because some teachers will behave in a manner that causes problems that the answer is to prohibit teaching the actual history of slavery and racial intolerance in this country? I think I know you well enough that you don’t want that.

This is the problem with the way the right handles these issues. They over-react to a very minor issue in some localities to the point where they want to ban books, and even certain words from the classroom. Their solution is far, far worse than the actual problem, IMO.

It’s better to bruise a few feelings than to impose censorship. And I am sure about that.

Do you want idealogues teaching a distorted, embittered view of history or teaching historical facts?
Banning words? You sure the right the only one doing that today or certain books, for that matter? Cancel culture, my friend, even when its been 10-15 years after they forking said something wrong and have completely changed as people, lets crucify them, anyway. We've all said stupid shirt, some of it 20-25 years ago, how would.you feel if I dragged some shirt you said or did way back when(really controversial shirt) and pressured your bosses to fire you or others like you in similar circumstances? Then you'd have more then a bruised egos.

If you want to tolerate idealogues who might make an agenda of sensitive, complex history, then lets allow intelligent design teachers to teach the Earth is 5,000 years old and that evolution is still just a theory?

 

[Saintman2884]

So, Saintman, you are saying that because some teachers will behave in a manner that causes problems that the answer is to prohibit teaching the actual history of slavery and racial intolerance in this country? I think I know you well enough that you don’t want that.

This is the problem with the way the right handles these issues. They over-react to a very minor issue in some localities to the point where they want to ban books, and even certain words from the classroom. Their solution is far, far worse than the actual problem, IMO.

It’s better to bruise a few feelings than to impose censorship. And I am sure about that.

Banning certain words or books from the classroom? Are you sure only the right can be accused of doing that deeds recently? Or certain songs like "Jingle Bells" like a upstate NY school administrator did recently?

 

[Saintman2884]

Everybody has an agenda. It is called belief structures. That being said CRT has "Race" as its middle word. White people (such as myself) do not have collective guilt for actions and events in the past. They do have an obligation that such actions are not repeated under the false guise of alleged free speech. They have an obligation to abandon stereotyping based upon the false construct called race.

Everyone engages in judging in virtually every social situation. The use of the state monopoly of violence to establish legal and quasi-legal restrictions is unacceptable. Claims that morality can not be legislated are false on their face. Any legislation that establishes a prohibition on a particular behavior is legislating morality. Social pressures combined with legislative morality in prohibiting discriminatory behaviors are required, period.

The actions of people who established a system of violence based upon enslaving others and allowing that system to continue for centuries followed by legal/quasi-legal restrictions on those same people are something that is history and as such must be taught. To forget or, worse, deliberately abandon, history is to allow for the ascendancy of authoritarian charlatans.

So, by these statements, if a celebrity or politician said some thing bigoted or discriminatory 25-30 years ago but has changed tremendously, evolved and moved on with the times, but some letter, e-mail gets conjured up of him saying something stupid 10 years ago and he isn't that person anymore, you still believe he should lose his job over some dumb, private comments he made 15 years ago? Thats part of the logic of cancel culture, whether you like it or not and I agree with Maher, its dumb, and asinine especially when it doesn't relate to them, as people, anymore.

And so what if everyone has an agenda? That still doesn't mean we should allow geologists who believe the earth is flat to be allowed to teach in our HS or colleges or that intelligent design is a logical rational form of evolutionary science or that evolution is still just a theory only? If its about not wanting to impose censorship, well, you cant just accuse the right-wing media and politicians for that and even if CRT is allowed, and it probably will, you're going to see a lot of parents taking their kids out of those schools and into private schools or academies unfortunately ala white flight phenomenom starting in the late 1960's. This controversy or issue isn't going away anytime soon no matter

 

[MT15]

Saintman, you surprise me, I guess I was wrong. No I don’t want anybody being censored or banning certain words. If there’s a problem locally - like banning Jingle Bells - (which you throw out there completely without context) - then it should be handled locally. Not by the state legislature banning words and teaching about slavery.

Sure there are people who overdo things - but I firmly believe they will be handled better locally than by legislation at the state level.

If you cannot see that only one side wants to codify their excesses, then I don’t think we can have a productive conversation here.

 

[Saintman2884]

Saintman, you surprise me, I guess I was wrong. No I don’t want anybody being censored or banning certain words. If there’s a problem locally - like banning Jingle Bells - (which you throw out there completely without context) - then it should be handled locally. Not by the state legislature banning words and teaching about slavery.

Sure there are people who overdo things - but I firmly believe they will be handled better locally than by legislation at the state level.

If you cannot see that only one side wants to codify their excesses, then I don’t think we can have a productive conversation here.

Oh, I see both sides wanting to codify their excesses legislatively, its just the left tends to be more self-righteous, annoying at times and not willing or unable to own up to their own idealistic bullshirt. I read a good thread on EE about bclemms talking about how his hometown of Jackson, MS has become so violent, and destructive in terms of gun-related deaths, and how even the most basic essential services tend to be broken down, unreliable, and delibadated. And still, the city itself refuses or is too incompetent enough to even try to fix the problems. Having faith in things being handled best locally is at best a mixed bag and its also naive. Often in certain cities, municipalities, or regions, controversial, incompetent or manipulative people with agendas get away with shirt all the time no matter how much complaints come from fellow teachers, educators, school board members or the public, in most colleges or universities, once they get tenured, professors can zealously and disportionately pander their particular version of curriculum on courses however they choose, despite negative feedback universally from students.

 

[MT15]

So what is an example of the left codifying their worst tendencies?

 

[SystemShock]

In Germany, modern-day Germans aren't somehow being singled out as somehow responsible for the Holocaust,

You typed a lot of stuff that has nothing to do with what I posted, but what is it that you are trying to say with that comment? The way it reads, you seem to think that teachers are laying blame for slavery on their white students. Is that what you think it is happening?

in the wrong hands

In the wrong hands, anything is bad. And...?

 

[bird]

So, by these statements, if a celebrity or politician said some thing bigoted or discriminatory 25-30 years ago but has changed tremendously, evolved and moved on with the times, but some letter, e-mail gets conjured up of him saying something stupid 10 years ago and he isn't that person anymore, you still believe he should lose his job over some dumb, private comments he made 15 years ago? Thats part of the logic of cancel culture, whether you like it or not and I agree with Maher, its dumb, and asinine especially when it doesn't relate to them, as people, anymore.

And so what if everyone has an agenda? That still doesn't mean we should allow geologists who believe the earth is flat to be allowed to teach in our HS or colleges or that intelligent design is a logical rational form of evolutionary science or that evolution is still just a theory only? If its about not wanting to impose censorship, well, you cant just accuse the right-wing media and politicians for that and even if CRT is allowed, and it probably will, you're going to see a lot of parents taking their kids out of those schools and into private schools or academies unfortunately ala white flight phenomenom starting in the late 1960's. This controversy or issue isn't going away anytime soon no matter

I really don’t give a crap about Bill Maher. As for changing tremendously? Well, since racism is alive and well I guess we can kick that idea to the curb. And who gets to decide what relates to people and how? You? Me? Bill Maher? Some random schmuck?

So now we will ask the big question: give us the exact definition of CRT. And then explain why history, whiuch since where CRT falls, should not be taught. I am. Well aware that it is university level and only in certain instances but tell me why it should not be taught earlier than that.

As for the parents in your assertion? Too damn bad for them. I am tired of racists whining about their feelings while telling everybody else “Flock YOUR Feelings”. Let them go to private schools which is what they want. Let THEM pay for it. The bleep with vouchers which is simply another way for racists to keep their precious white children pure and unsullied.

As for evolution? Well, nobody has put forth any theory that is reasonable or likely. Intelligent design is merely a gutless term for creationism. Science is science and religion is religion.

Bottom line? I. Do. Not. Care. I have had it. For years we have heard sniping about liberals and then he had the absolute idiot Trump elected so RW racist, misogynist imbeciles could feel good about their racism and misogyn.

No more. Your kid can’t handle the truth about the foundational institution of slavery and racism in this country? Too bad.

 

[Saintman2884]

I really don’t give a crap about Bill Maher. As for changing tremendously? Well, since racism is alive and well I guess we can kick that idea to the curb. And who gets to decide what relates to people and how? You? Me? Bill Maher? Some random schmuck?

So now we will ask the big question: give us the exact definition of CRT. And then explain why history, whiuch since where CRT falls, should not be taught. I am. Well aware that it is university level and only in certain instances but tell me why it should not be taught earlier than that.

As for the parents in your assertion? Too damn bad for them. I am tired of racists whining about their feelings while telling everybody else “Flock YOUR Feelings”. Let them go to private schools which is what they want. Let THEM pay for it. The bleep with vouchers which is simply another way for racists to keep their precious white children pure and unsullied.

As for evolution? Well, nobody has put forth any theory that is reasonable or likely. Intelligent design is merely a gutless term for creationism. Science is science and religion is religion.

Bottom line? I. Do. Not. Care. I have had it. For years we have heard sniping about liberals and then he had the absolute idiot Trump elected so RW racist, misogynist imbeciles could feel good about their racism and misogyn.

No more. Your kid can’t handle the truth about the foundational institution of slavery and racism in this country? Too bad.

Oh, they will leave and many of them have no forking problem paying for it, while giving people like you the middle finger while they drive away. And then, the problem festers and boils and nothing constructive comes out of it, whatsoever.

So, you approve of cancel culture, huh if someone said something 25 years ago that doesn't reflect who HE IS NOW, WHAT HE IS DONE, AND WHAT HE REPRESENTS,.then you're a very shallow, vindictive person. Thats part of the logic of "cancel culture" regardless of whether you like it or not, or want to admit it. No amount of intellectual sophistry can cancel that out, pardon the pun. And why should uninformed public decide or be the one to judge? Really good call, there.

Actually, its not the fact that most kids in HS and colleges can't handle the facts regarding systemic racism and discrimination is rampant in our history and in our country? Thats sort of common knowledge, what some are objecting is that they, will somehow be made to feel as responsible for their parents and grandparents sins as much as they were by idealistic, overzealous demogagoes who'll use CRT to manipulate their own personal agendas and how some people on here are perhaps a bit naive about how unwilling, unable some local municipalities are in confronting problem types.

Which again, perhaps re-raises the original question: maybe its not that I oppose CRT teaching, the kind thats responsible and doesn't give the impression of pointing fingers and isn't abused by manipulative, zealous educators looking to make a name for themselves in academia by stirring the shirt storm.

Strange how 5 years ago, most liberals and progressives loved and adored Bill Maher's views on most social and political.issues. Even on here. Now, once he's bitten the hand that fed him and gone off-script somehow, people may not be so willing and gung-ho to turn on Real Time anymore.