All Things LGBTQ+ (6 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[Paul]

True. Did I say some churches or was I specifically talking about the catholic church?

The Church has the right to decide who gets and who does not get communion. The state has no business is telling the Church what to do. Soem churches bend the rule and will communion to whomever walks up to the front. However, that is not how it is prescribed by the Church founded by Jesus and Peter.

 

[Farb]

The Church has the right to decide who gets and who does not get communion. The state has no business is telling the Church what to do. Soem churches bend the rule and will communion to whomever walks up to the front. However, that is not how it is prescribed by the Church founded by Jesus and Peter.

I am a terrible catholic and because of that I sometime cannot take the sacrament until I go to confession and get into a state of grace to receive it. The priest probably won't know, so you have to police yourself. To me it is far too important for me to try and 'sneak' by the teachings of Jesus and his church. Matter of fact, I have that to do in an hour so I can take the sacrament tomorrow.
Now if a gay person wants to go to confession before every mass, I guess technically he could but that is just faking it and he makes no attempt to stop the sin that keep him from receiving it in the first place.

Being a Catholic is hard, as I imagine being a Baptist, Jew, or Buddhist is hard. It is suppose to be hard. We are flawed creatures, trying to be perfect is impossible but the journey is the reward.

We (I mainly) have side tracked this thread. My apologizes.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

True. Did I say some churches or was I specifically talking about the catholic church?

You were responding to a post that said it is happening in a church, but that is also irrelevant. You said it's frightening. Why do you find it frightening that gay people are receiving communion?

 

[JRad]

What do you consider 'ancient times'? Is trial and error in making stone tools, putting a stick in the ground and watching the shadow and realizing it all is symmetrical to the big ball of heat and light and that comes everyday and leaves every night not 'science'?

You can argue whether or not this is defined as “science”, but I’d argue this is the more or less the core of the scientific method.

 

[V Chip]

Academia and Hospitals as we know it today traces its life directly back to the Catholic Church. So does the theories of Big Bang and Evolution (nope, not Darwin). The common act of charity as we know it a Christian thing. Not to mention law, women rights, music and architecture but you know that.

This is false.

Hospitals existed before Christ, much less Christianity. The first hospitals in the more modern age were Roman military hospitals that had nothing to do with Christianity. Christian hospices definitely helped the idea expand to more people, but these were not the first hospitals.

The History of Hospitals and Wards - HCD Magazine

This history of hospitals covers 2,000 years of how the building type has evolved, from ancient temples to early wards to modern private patient rooms.

healthcaredesignmagazine.com

Schools and academic institutions existed before Christ as well.

How did universities develop - DailyHistory.org

dailyhistory.org

The BBT was first suggested by a priest, but calling that “tracing the BBT’s life to the Catholic Church” is a huge stretch.

Evolutionary thought was definitely not based on ideas of the Catholic Church nor does it owe its life to the CC.

All the rest of those are laughable to call the CC the originator or even important in the development of — charity, law, women’s rights, music, and architecture all existed and were well founded before the CC existed.

 

[SystemShock]

The only rights available to man are the rights that other men allow them to have?

Correct.

Rights are allowed only by the grace of other men in charge?

Correct.

Are these rights or privileges ordained by society?

Correct.

Do make a distinction between mala in se crimes and mala prohibitum crimes, because it sounds like you don't.

Why do you think I don't?

I think you meant to ask "why did man wait until 1776 to put those rights and values on paper in the newly formed US?". That is the actual question.

I keep asking you to show me "those rights and values", and you can't, yet you try to hijack secular humanist values and pass them as Abrahamic values.

Most of the life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness style of thought came along well before 1776. Magna Carta, The Guide for the Perplexed. There have been countless examples in the west and east (maybe not the far east, no idea on that one) that show this style of thought.

I don't think the Magna Carta seeked the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness for everyone, not even close... and the Torah is not exactly a collection of rights no matter how a Rabbi spins it.

Academia and Hospitals as we know it today traces its life directly back to the Catholic Church.

So the Greeks, the Macedonians, the Egyptians, et al had nothing to do with it?

So does the theories of Big Bang and Evolution (nope, not Darwin).

Yes, and one Pope wanted to make it part of of creed, because why not, but the rest of the church had a collective aneurysm.

The common act of charity as we know it a Christian thing.

It is a thing in other religions/non-Christian cultures as well.

Not to mention law, women rights, music and architecture but you know that.

No, I don't know that. And women's rights? Are you kidding?

Yes, most of the world today focuses on the corruption of man and evil men infiltrating the church and committing horrible acts. I understand that. I believe the exact same thing can be said our government. Men are men and will act like men.

Sure. because church or government, it is all man-made.

The church is an enemy to the left and always has been.

Well, yes. "The left" has always been against monarchies, tyranny, and population control, whereas historically, the churches have always aligned with monarchies and tyrants.

It would be like me singing the praises of atheists and talking about how they great they are.

Atheism is merely a position on one particular subject. I don't see why anyone would sing praises for that.

It won't happen, ever. Much like you admitting that Christianity and especially the Catholic Church are a net good for society. I don't see that happening either.

In that, we agree.

 

[SystemShock]

This is false.

Hospitals existed before Christ, much less Christianity. The first hospitals in the more modern age were Roman military hospitals that had nothing to do with Christianity. Christian hospices definitely helped the idea expand to more people, but these were not the first hospitals.

Quick sidenote: there is now archaeological evidence that Egyptians gave medical treatment to the workers/slaves who built the pyramids. Considering the amount of people that took to build pyramids, there must have been some sort of at the very least a triage set up near pyramid construction.

And really, when it comes down to it, what's a hospital? It's just a place where you concentrate your sick to treat them in some way. So it probably started with the idea of getting the sick away from the tribe.

 

[Paul]

This is false.

Hospitals existed before Christ, much less Christianity. The first hospitals in the more modern age were Roman military hospitals that had nothing to do with Christianity. Christian hospices definitely helped the idea expand to more people, but these were not the first hospitals.

The History of Hospitals and Wards - HCD Magazine

This history of hospitals covers 2,000 years of how the building type has evolved, from ancient temples to early wards to modern private patient rooms.

healthcaredesignmagazine.com

Schools and academic institutions existed before Christ as well.

How did universities develop - DailyHistory.org

dailyhistory.org

The BBT was first suggested by a priest, but calling that “tracing the BBT’s life to the Catholic Church” is a huge stretch.

Evolutionary thought was definitely not based on ideas of the Catholic Church nor does it owe its life to the CC.

All the rest of those are laughable to call the CC the originator or even important in the development of — charity, law, women’s rights, music, and architecture all existed and were well founded before the CC existed.

The Catholic Church played a huge role in Western Civilization. Some good and some bad. There was a time when life was entirely centered on Catholicism and the power of the Church was immense. The kings and royalty of Europe had to bend the knee to the Pope. Just travel to Europe and visit the old town of all major cities and towns. The mark of the Church is palpable. After the destruction of the Western Roman Empire, the church in the West was a major factor in preserving classical civilization, establishing monasteries, and sending missionaries to convert the peoples of northern Europe as far north as Ireland. And let's not forget that at one time the North of Africa was Christian. One of the great early philosophers Saint Augustine was a North African. As you know today the North of Africa is Muslim do to the invasion and conquest by the Islamists.

 

[MT15]

Any woman can have an abortion. That is freedom. However, it is not a right to demand that the state provides abortion services since that costs money and requires the participation of others.

Bill of Rights (cost no money)

Another great example of a straw man - we weren’t talking about demanding that the state provide abortion services.

 

[MT15]

The Church has the right to decide who gets and who does not get communion. The state has no business is telling the Church what to do. Soem churches bend the rule and will communion to whomever walks up to the front. However, that is not how it is prescribed by the Church founded by Jesus and Peter.

Complete straw man. Nobody is arguing that the state should tell any church who can receive communion. This one just comes out of left field somewhere.

 

[Paul]

Complete straw man. Nobody is arguing that the state should tell any church who can receive communion. This one just comes out of left field somewhere.

OK, fair point. Do you think the Church should officially accept and give communion to gays? If you say yes----why?

 

[MT15]

I don’t care one whit whether the Catholic Church does or does not.

And by that I mean that they have the freedom to believe as they wish.

if I had a church, though, they would be welcome and not discriminated against.

 

[Paul]

Another great example of a straw man - we weren’t talking about demanding that the state provide abortion services.

IN post #456 you said:

Oh, that’s an interesting statement. Bodily autonomy isn’t a right?

I simply replied to that point.

 

[Paul]

I don’t care one whit whether the Catholic Church does or does not.

That is correct. it is not your business.

And by that I mean that they have the freedom to believe as they wish.

Exactly!

if I had a church, though, they would be welcome and not discriminated against.

There is one Catholic Church and over 40,000 Protestant denominations that do their own thing. The Catholic Church cannot change. It is what it is.

 

[MT15]

So why are we chatting as if someone, anyone, wants to tell the church what to do? Nobody has advocated for that. This is why people get so frustrated with you sometimes.

the premise of my original post was that I don’t appreciate efforts by the church to legislate per their teachings. I don’t want church dogma to be passed into law that affects me and others who don’t wish to abide by that church’s teachings.

 

[MT15]

IN post #456 you said:


I simply replied to that point.

Where did I say the procedure had to be paid for by the state? Or even come close to that? But what is happening is that the church is attempting to legislate their dogma and restrict women’s bodily autonomy. See the difference?

 

[Paul]

I don’t want church dogma to be passed into law that affects me and others who don’t wish to abide by that church’s teachings.

OK, when it comes to straw men we are even. No one said we want the Church to pass dogma into law.
No problem!

 

[Paul]

Where did I say the procedure had to be paid for by the state? Or even come close to that? But what is happening is that the church is attempting to legislate their dogma and restrict women’s bodily autonomy. See the difference?

I interpreted that way. That was my bad.