All Things LGBTQ+ (2 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[insidejob]

I'm sure there are still plenty of Catholic churches around worldwide that would ostracize openly gay attendees.

(Not that you disagree)

Catholic schools too.

 

[Paul]

They're probably using that terminology too broadly then, aren't they? Christianity and the enlightenment aren't the same thing, yet you're only invoking one of them in that term.

Are there elements unique to Christianity evident in the founding of the country? Or is it just to say that a lot of the Founders were religious and therefore it must have also been a primary influence?

As humans we are a complex mixture of what came before. In ancient times there was no science and hence the world was explained with religion. Then science came along and the world could be explained with religion. Nevertheless, the early science men remained deeply religious. Isaac Newton, the smartest man that ever lived almost became a priest and believed in alchemy. Einstein examined the bible and concluded religion was BS. The enlightenment is the culmination of the good and the bad that happened before. There were great Christian philosophers such as Saint Augustine and Saint Thomas. Today philosophers would not be expected to be Christian.

 

[Paul]

I think we have maybe found the basis for the disagreement. I, as the founders, believe that there are right given to us by our creator and not by man/state/government/king ect... You believe that not to be the case and I 100% agree that is the case. I don't see either one of us changing on this core issue but one never knows.

As @bdb13 correctly stated to @Paul, I believe I was using judaeo christian too broadly and maybe incorrectly. I think western civilization has been cultivated by jewish and christian dogma and teachings. I also think that is a great thing and personally, we probably need more of it, but I have a feeling most would disagree.

I also agree, the age of reason is a wonderful thing. The amount of good for the entire world and civilization that was brought about Western Civilization is truly amazing.

There are a few gay couples that attend mass with me fairly regularly. One lady is quite active in our parish but she cannot receive communion. No one I know that is catholic has a problem with that. I and several others would have a problem with them receiving the sacrament but no one cares of them attending mass, as I said, one couple is quite popular.

There is a strange movement in the church to become more 'inclusive' and allow all to receive the sacrament, maybe even non-Catholics ( Lightfoot- though that might have been a mistake but I have my doubts). That will be a fight that I that plan to take great interest in.

This might be a topic better on a religion thread so as not to sidetrack the slippery slope of the LGBTQ movement.

In a Catholic Church in Hollywood, Ca the gays get communion. The altar servers are all gay grown men.

 

[SystemShock]

I think we have maybe found the basis for the disagreement. I, as the founders, believe that there are right given to us by our creator and not by man/state/government/king ect...

What are those rights? Can you list those rights? Where are they listed? And don't say "the U.S. Constitution". If rights are given to every human being by their creator, then they are universal, and everyone who ever lived had those rights, no matter where they where born. Unless you think that Yahweh came down and dictated the Bill of Rights to the founding fathers, and if he did, what a dick move, not giving those rights to the billions that lived before, and not everyone on the planet who were alive at the time.

I'll tell you, though, I look at the Bill of Rights, and I fail to see any god in it, Christian or otherwise.

As @bdb13 correctly stated to @Paul, I believe I was using judaeo christian too broadly and maybe incorrectly.

It is plain wrong. Seems no one can list those values either.

I think western civilization has been cultivated by jewish and christian dogma and teachings

You keep bringing Jews into it, yet Europe spent most of the dark ages and beyond persecuting them. And speaking of the dark ages, you know who cultivated that.

I already presented 2 highly significant values in the U.S. Constitution that definitely contradict Christian dogma, and really, you only need one, the 1st amendment, which makes it abundantly clear.

You mentioned the DOI.... do you know where "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" came from? From Voltaire's Candide. And you know who Voltaire was.

 

[Farb]

In a Catholic Church in Hollywood, Ca the gays get communion. The altar servers are all gay grown men.

That is not surprising, frightening but not surprising.

 

[Farb]

What are those rights? Can you list those rights? Where are they listed? And don't say "the U.S. Constitution". If rights are given to every human being by their creator, then they are universal, and everyone who ever lived had those rights, no matter where they where born. Unless you think that Yahweh came down and dictated the Bill of Rights to the founding fathers, and if he did, what a dick move, not giving those rights to the billions that lived before, and not everyone on the planet who were alive at the time.

I'll tell you, though, I look at the Bill of Rights, and I fail to see any god in it, Christian or otherwise.

You can pick any natural right you would like as an example. I think you are confusing natural rights and legal rights. And you are correct, all men born before this day and after today will all have those rights that were granted by God.

I don't see God in the BoR either or the constitution, as I already stated. The DOI clearly states it though.

You keep bringing Jews into it, yet Europe spent most of the dark ages and beyond persecuting them. And speaking of the dark ages, you know who cultivated that.

And your point is what exactly? There were bad people in the world? Jews were also persecuted through out the middle east and world wide as well but the world also adapted many of the jewish contributions to civilization. Same can be said for the multitude of past empires and states.

You mentioned the DOI.... do you know where "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" came from? From Voltaire's Candide. And you know who Voltaire was.

I do and I am missing the point. Is this a binary angle? Since Voltaire was cynical of the Roman Catholic church, his thoughts and works can have no value if to someone that is a Roman Catholic?

Your stance is that when this country was founded, those that founded it had no inspiration or used nothing from their shared basic religion? Just on the human nature aspect that is hard to believe. But, we know you have a obligation to push back on all things religion and especially Catholicism.

 

[MT15]

Farb, directly, what do you consider a “natural right”?

 

[Paul]

Farb, directly, what do you consider a “natural right”?

I will take a shot.

Rights do not cost others any money.

Rights should not infringe the rights of your neighbor.

 

[MT15]

So those aren’t rights, those are criteria for what could qualify as a right, to my way of thinking.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

That is not surprising, frightening but not surprising.

Why do you consider it frightening?

 

[SystemShock]

You can pick any natural right you would like as an example. I think you are confusing natural rights and legal rights. And you are correct, all men born before this day and after today will all have those rights that were granted by God.

There is no such thing as "natural rights", but still, how about you list them?

I don't see God in the BoR either or the constitution, as I already stated. The DOI clearly states it though.

Sure, it has the words "God" and "creator" in it. That doesn't mean it anything when the U.S. Constitution, the law of the land itself, clearly shows it is not inspired in Abrahamic dogma.

And your point is what exactly? There were bad people in the world? Jews were also persecuted through out the middle east and world wide as well but the world also adapted many of the jewish contributions to civilization. Same can be said for the multitude of past empires and states.

The point is, Europeans weren't too kind on Jewish values.

I do and I am missing the point. Is this a binary angle? Since Voltaire was cynical of the Roman Catholic church, his thoughts and works can have no value if to someone that is a Roman Catholic?

Voltaire is one of the founding fathers of the Age of Reason, which truly inspired the U.S. Constitution.

Your stance is that when this country was founded, those that founded it had no inspiration or used nothing from their shared basic religion?

My stance is that it was the Age of Reason and therefore secular humanism that truly inspired the founding fathers, not their religion. It seems very obvious when you read the document.

But, we know you have a obligation to push back on all things religion and especially Catholicism.

It's not an obligation, more like a hobby.

 

[Heathen]

I will take a shot.

Rights do not cost others any money.

Rights should not infringe the rights of your neighbor.

So how do you feel about the right to treatment from a healthcare provider? There are many 'rights' that are not talked about but are common practice as they're codified into modern legislation for long enough to be considered more or less a right.

America has an abysmal healthcare system as compared to other nations based on our metric of success. Would the fact that healthcare is considered a privilege here (and healthcare is much more of an obvious 'industry') be part of why that is?

 

[Heathen]

I am agnostic and sent all my kids to Catholic schools because I wanted to pass on my cultural heritage. People sometimes need a religious center and that is why you see religion replaced by non-deity pseudo religions such as anti -racism, social justice, socialism, etc.

I wont argue a personal decision, but you do realize you can pass on your heritage through other mediums beside religion? History, dance, art, storytelling..the list goes on and on.

I'm not sure where you think that social justice movements are equivalent to religion. I see no comparison whatsoever. It seems just an attempt to level as such.

 

[Paul]

I wont argue a personal decision, but you do realize you can pass on your heritage through other mediums beside religion? History, dance, art, storytelling..the list goes on and on.

I'm not sure where you think that social justice movements are equivalent to religion. I see no comparison whatsoever. It seems just an attempt to level as such.

Religion is an integral part of culture. It is not uncommon for atheists to try to replace religion with some other pseudo-religious activity.

Social justice is desirable, but some take it too seriously with religious fervor. Watch this video and see how this poster delineates all the tenets of the SJW religion.

 

[Paul]

So how do you feel about the right to treatment from a healthcare provider? There are many 'rights' that are not talked about but are common practice as they're codified into modern legislation for long enough to be considered more or less a right.

Medical care is not a basic human right as it costs money and requires others to pitch in.

America has an abysmal healthcare system as compared to other nations based on our metric of success. Would the fact that healthcare is considered a privilege here (and healthcare is much more of an obvious 'industry') be part of why that is?

Basic rights do not cost money. For example:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Having another human take care of you is not a right. It is an optional benefit.

 

[Paul]

So those aren’t rights, those are criteria for what could qualify as a right, to my way of thinking.

Freedom of speech and association is free.

 

[Taurus]

Medical care is not a basic human right as it costs money and requires others to pitch in.

Basic rights do not cost money. For example:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Having another human take care of you is not a right. It is an optional benefit.

Including in-utero?

 

[V Chip]

A new, separate thread on natural/human rights would be an interesting one.