All Things LGBTQ+ (3 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[Paul]

...yet, the Catholic church has tremendous influence on the Mexican people. According to the last census (and people in MX generally don't have issues answering such questions ) 83% of Mexicans are Catholic. It used to be that the PAN ( historically one of the 2 largest political parties in MX along with the PRI, until the advent of MORENA this past decade ) was fully backed by the Catholic church, and the PAN pretty much carried the church's agenda in their policies, and let's just say, the agenda wasn't entirely religious.

And side cultural note: Mexicans don't pray to Jesus, they pray to the virgin Mary

You ignore the fact that religion is much more than a supernatural belief system. Religion is culture and I would expect Mexicans, Polish people., and many Irish, etc, etc to include Catholicism as part of their cultural heritage. Whether God is real or no becomes a moot point. I am agnostic and sent all my kids to Catholic schools because I wanted to pass on my cultural heritage. People sometimes need a religious center and that is why you see religion replaced by non-deity pseudo religions such as anti -racism, social justice, socialism, etc.

 

[MT15]

Oh good lord. This is just gibberish at this point.

 

[SystemShock]

You ignore the fact that religion is much more than a supernatural belief system. Religion is culture and I would expect Mexicans, Polish people., and many Irish, etc, etc to include Catholicism as part of their cultural heritage. Whether God is real or no becomes a moot point. I am agnostic and sent all my kids to Catholic schools because I wanted to pass on my cultural heritage. People sometimes need a religious center and that is why you see religion replaced by non-deity pseudo religions such as anti -racism, social justice, socialism, etc.

 

[Paul]

Thanks for the award!

 

[Heathen]

I would also argue that todays leftist movement has created their own dogma that is pushing much more successfully (be it control of the institutions of power or a just a better message, that is up for debate) their beliefs on everyone else in this country.

This gets mentioned over and over by people, and I think the term "leftist" is nothing more than something someone started repeating because I suppose it sounded scary because in practicality - Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, and all of the other darlings the right loves to hate..aren't leftists..not even in the same universe.

Who are the leftists to you? As someone who identifies as having leftist views(economically, socially), I can assure you that modern Democrats are not at all 'leftists'. They are mostly neoliberal. Quite conservative actually.

Also, what are these people if any group can be singled out trying to do?

For example: Social justice (something that the right complains about) has always been a mainstay in our country - rather it was for the emancipation of slaves, rights of women or gay people, or pushing for increasing the minimum wage. I'm not sure what beliefs this disorganized group seems to be pushing. About the closest you'll get is Democratic Socialists, but they're few and far between still.

Maybe in all reality we're just talking about people in America these days and that their views are more left-leaning than before? Most folks could care less about "left vs. right", but if someone says "Yes, gay people should have EVERY right as straight people" and someone takes offense to that, it may just be a product of the times.

 

[Paul]

This gets mentioned over and over by people, and I think the term "leftist" is nothing more than something someone started repeating because I suppose it sounded scary because in practicality - Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, and all of the other darlings the right loves to hate..aren't leftists..not even in the same universe.

I know no one that thinks Biden and Pelosi are on the hard left. Biden, Pelosi, the Clintons, etc are opportunists that pander to the minorities. They practice condescending racism of low expectations with POC and get elected.

Who are the leftists to you? As someone who identifies as having leftist views(economically, socially), I can assure you that modern Democrats are not at all 'leftists'. They are mostly neoliberal. Quite conservative actually.

Also, what are these people if any group can be singled out trying to do?

Thankfully there only a handful. They are the ones that think a man can be a woman by just thinking he is a woman. The ones that believe humans are blank slates that can be shaped into anything they want. The ones that are true socialists even though it does not work.

For example: Social justice (something that the right complains about) has always been a mainstay in our country - rather it was for the emancipation of slaves, rights of women or gay people, or pushing for increasing the minimum wage. I'm not sure what beliefs this disorganized group seems to be pushing. About the closest you'll get is Democratic Socialists, but they're few and far between still.

I agree!

Maybe in all reality we're just talking about people in America these days and that their views are more left-leaning than before? Most folks could care less about "left vs. right", but if someone says "Yes, gay people should have EVERY right as straight people" and someone takes offense to that, it may just be a product of the times.

Any successful nation has an optimal balance of both sides. Both the right and the left have excellent points. There is nothing wrong with hard work, individualism, traditions, family, entrepreneurship, etc. As pointed out the left also has meaningful contributions.

 

[Farb]

What happens when the people who claim to be religious aren't moral and the people who are moral aren't religious?

Fair question and good question, I want to think on that. I would guess you would have a perversion of the faith and church, much like my church is in now. Bad people with bad intentions in positions of power. But I have one for you too, in a society that separates church and state, as ours does, what happens when the state becomes a religion?

Oh good lord. This is just gibberish at this point.

Maybe the word you are looking for is 'heresy'?

That is false. One only has to read the U.S. Constitution to see that.

Although, there was this one value, slavery... at least until 1865.

I will agree that constitution itself did a good job of creating a government that is has a separation of church of state but you can clearly see in the DOI that our rights are from God himself. The constitution sets up a government by man for man to protect and not infringe on the rights already given by the creator.

Yes, slavery was very still very popular all over the world at this time too,. I might be mistaken but wasn't western civ societies the only ones to outlaw slavery in it's entirety by this time? Who was the first government/society to outlaw slavery? I think it was Christian/western civ if I am not mistaken.

What is pretty amazing is this society, fought a war and generations were lost to end slavery in this country and bring the freedom discussed in the DOI and Constitution to all people regardless of sex, creed or color. It seems we just kind of skim over that in our path to attack those that became us as lacking in moral character. (not saying you specifically @SystemShock, I am just kind of having diarrhea of thought).

 

[Paul]

Lol. Define “often.”

Page not found.

Appropos.

No one is stopping LGBT form worshipping in a Catholic Church.

These Catholic Parishes Welcome New York’s L.G.B.T.Q. Community (Published 2021)

Many of New York City’s most outwardly gay-friendly parishes are concentrated in Manhattan, a center of both gay culture and efforts to build a gay-friendly Catholicism.

www.nytimes.com

TOP 10 BEST Gay Friendly Church in Los Angeles, CA - Updated 2024 - Yelp

Top 10 Best Gay Friendly Church in Los Angeles, CA - June 2024 - Yelp - Oasis Church, First Congregational Church of Los Angeles, Vintage Church, InVision Church LA, Hillsong LA, Mosaic, Hollywood United Methodist Church, Saint Victor Catholic Church, Agape International Spiritual Center, St...

www.yelp.com

 

[insidejob]

No one is stopping LGBT form worshipping in a Catholic Church.

These Catholic Parishes Welcome New York’s L.G.B.T.Q. Community (Published 2021)

Many of New York City’s most outwardly gay-friendly parishes are concentrated in Manhattan, a center of both gay culture and efforts to build a gay-friendly Catholicism.

www.nytimes.com

TOP 10 BEST Gay Friendly Church in Los Angeles, CA - Updated 2024 - Yelp

Top 10 Best Gay Friendly Church in Los Angeles, CA - June 2024 - Yelp - Oasis Church, First Congregational Church of Los Angeles, Vintage Church, InVision Church LA, Hillsong LA, Mosaic, Hollywood United Methodist Church, Saint Victor Catholic Church, Agape International Spiritual Center, St...

www.yelp.com

In NYC and Los Angeles.

The fact that those articles exist proves how widespread it is that they aren't allowed to practice.

 

[SystemShock]

Fair question and good question, I want to think on that. I would guess you would have a perversion of the faith and church, much like my church is in now. Bad people with bad intentions in positions of power. But I have one for you too, in a society that separates church and state, as ours does, what happens when the state becomes a religion?


Maybe the word you are looking for is 'heresy'?


I will agree that constitution itself did a good job of creating a government that is has a separation of church of state but you can clearly see in the DOI that our rights are from God himself.
The constitution sets up a government by man for man to protect and not infringe on the rights already given by the creator.

And yet, they are not. A "right" is a human concept, something societies agree upon. And when you talk about Abrahamic religions, you have no rights at all; you are at the whim of your deity, which tells you what to do and what punishment you get for what you do, not what rights you have.

Out of curiosity, what are these Judaeo-Christian values you think the U.S. was founded on? I have asked this many times, and I have never gotten a satisfactory response, mostly references to "thou shalt not commit murder", but that isn't a value exclusive to the Abrahamic religions.

On the other hand, the 1st Amendment goes against the 1st and 2nd commandments; the capitalistic principles of our economy are materialistic in nature and rewards coveting material things, which is contrary to Bible teachings;

Yes, slavery was very still very popular all over the world at this time too,. I might be mistaken but wasn't western civ societies the only ones to outlaw slavery in it's entirety by this time? Who was the first government/society to outlaw slavery? I think it was Christian/western civ if I am not mistaken.

Something wonderful started in the 17th century in Europe, an ideology based on secular humanism that sought to move away from the monarchies and the churches that had dragged Europe through the dark ages for centuries. Call it the Renaissance, the Enlightenment... I prefer the Age of Reason.

If you are looking for any basis or principles on which the U.S. was founded, look no further than that. Many of the founding fathers, especially Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin, where heavily influenced by that movement.

 

[Paul]

In NYC and Los Angeles.

The fact that those articles exist proves how widespread it is that they aren't allowed to practice.

No one is stopping any LGBTQIA++++ to attend mass in a Catholic Church.
Why exaggerate the victimhood status? Why do people see this as empowering? BTW, they could attend the Episcopalian Church which is Catholic light and get ordained too.

Now you will straw man and say I do not think there is discrimination against LGBTQIA++++. That is not what I am saying above.

 

[Paul]

And yet, they are not. A "right" is a human concept, something societies agree upon. And when you talk about Abrahamic religions, you have no rights at all; you are at the whim of your deity, which tells you what to do and what punishment you get for what you do, not what rights you have.

Out of curiosity, what are these Judaeo-Christian values you think the U.S. was founded on? I have asked this many times, and I have never gotten a satisfactory response, mostly references to "thou shalt not commit murder", but that isn't a value exclusive to the Abrahamic religions.

On the other hand, the 1st Amendment goes against the 1st and 2nd commandments; the capitalistic principles of our economy are materialistic in nature and rewards coveting material things, which is contrary to Bible teachings;


Something wonderful started in the 17th century in Europe, an ideology based on secular humanism that sought to move away from the monarchies and the churches that had dragged Europe through the dark ages for centuries. Call it the Renaissance, the Enlightenment... I prefer the Age of Reason.

If you are looking for any basis or principles in which the U.S. was founded, look no further than that. Many of the founding fathers, especially Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin, where heavily influenced by that movement.

When conservative Americans say the founding USA is based of Judeo Christian values they mean Western Civilization, the enlightenment and Christianity (even if the state and church are separated).

 

[insidejob]

LOLOL.

 

[bdb13]

When conservative Americans say the founding USA is based of Judeo Christian values they mean Western Civilization, the enlightenment and Christianity (even if the state and church are separated).

They're probably using that terminology too broadly then, aren't they? Christianity and the enlightenment aren't the same thing, yet you're only invoking one of them in that term.

Are there elements unique to Christianity evident in the founding of the country? Or is it just to say that a lot of the Founders were religious and therefore it must have also been a primary influence?

 

[V Chip]

No one is stopping LGBT form worshipping in a Catholic Church.

Who ever said they were? Did someone say “the Catholic Church refuses to let gay people inside their doors?” No.

(Also for your future reference, that is an actual straw man — inventing an argument that nobody was discussing and then attacking that argument.)

Letting lgbtq people worship in church is not what is meant by “accepting” them. You know the lovely saying “love the sinner, hate the sin” still means that who gay people are is sinful — who they love is viewed as a sin. That isn’t acceptance.

 

[bdb13]

Who ever said they were? Did someone say “the Catholic Church refuses to let gay people inside their doors?” No.

(Also for your future reference, that is an actual straw man — inventing an argument that nobody was discussing and then attacking that argument.)

Letting lgbtq people worship in church is not what is meant by “accepting” them. You know the lovely saying “love the sinner, hate the sin” still means that who gay people are is sinful — who they love is viewed as a sin. That isn’t acceptance.

I'm sure there are still plenty of Catholic churches around worldwide that would ostracize openly gay attendees.

(Not that you disagree)

 

[Paul]

Who ever said they were? Did someone say “the Catholic Church refuses to let gay people inside their doors?” No.

(Also for your future reference, that is an actual straw man — inventing an argument that nobody was discussing and then attacking that argument.)

Letting lgbtq people worship in church is not what is meant by “accepting” them. You know the lovely saying “love the sinner, hate the sin” still means that who gay people are is sinful — who they love is viewed as a sin. That isn’t acceptance.

You do not know what is acceptance. For example I do not think a trans woman is a real woman, but I accept them. In the same manner the Catholic Church accepts the LGBTQIA++++ people even if the Catholic dogma is not in total agreement.

 

[Farb]

And yet, they are not. A "right" is a human concept, something societies agree upon. And when you talk about Abrahamic religions, you have no rights at all; you are at the whim of your deity, which tells you what to do and what punishment you get for what you do, not what rights you have.

Out of curiosity, what are these Judaeo-Christian values you think the U.S. was founded on? I have asked this many times, and I have never gotten a satisfactory response, mostly references to "thou shalt not commit murder", but that isn't a value exclusive to the Abrahamic religions.

On the other hand, the 1st Amendment goes against the 1st and 2nd commandments; the capitalistic principles of our economy are materialistic in nature and rewards coveting material things, which is contrary to Bible teachings;


Something wonderful started in the 17th century in Europe, an ideology based on secular humanism that sought to move away from the monarchies and the churches that had dragged Europe through the dark ages for centuries. Call it the Renaissance, the Enlightenment... I prefer the Age of Reason.

If you are looking for any basis or principles on which the U.S. was founded, look no further than that. Many of the founding fathers, especially Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin, where heavily influenced by that movement.

I think we have maybe found the basis for the disagreement. I, as the founders, believe that there are right given to us by our creator and not by man/state/government/king ect... You believe that not to be the case and I 100% agree that is the case. I don't see either one of us changing on this core issue but one never knows.

As @bdb13 correctly stated to @Paul, I believe I was using judaeo christian too broadly and maybe incorrectly. I think western civilization has been cultivated by jewish and christian dogma and teachings. I also think that is a great thing and personally, we probably need more of it, but I have a feeling most would disagree.

I also agree, the age of reason is a wonderful thing. The amount of good for the entire world and civilization that was brought about Western Civilization is truly amazing.

There are a few gay couples that attend mass with me fairly regularly. One lady is quite active in our parish but she cannot receive communion. No one I know that is catholic has a problem with that. I and several others would have a problem with them receiving the sacrament but no one cares of them attending mass, as I said, one couple is quite popular.

There is a strange movement in the church to become more 'inclusive' and allow all to receive the sacrament, maybe even non-Catholics ( Lightfoot- though that might have been a mistake but I have my doubts). That will be a fight that I that plan to take great interest in.

This might be a topic better on a religion thread so as not to sidetrack the slippery slope of the LGBTQ movement.