All Things LGBTQ+ (3 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[Farb]

I an very pro anti-religion , but, I don't see it. Why is it anti-religion?

You make it sound like a bad thing. There is a lot of the Enlightenment (aka the Age of Reason) in the U.S. Constitution.


Marriage is simply a civic contract between two individuals, sanctioned by the State.

Churches don't have to accept or permit anything, but what needs to happen, the State needs to stop recognizing church weddings as binging civil contracts, so people would have to go to court to actually legally enter the civil contract (get married) and churches need to start paying taxes and stop getting any sort of subsidy from the State.

BTW, that's the way that's been in MX since the social revolution of 1910; you have to go to the Civil Registrar to get married, otherwise, you are not, no matter which church or denomination you had your ceremony.

You don't say! I had no idea.

There is indeed. And, the 'age of reason' is not necessarily a bad thing at all, and reason and religion are not enemies. On the contrary, they have walked hand in hand with the development of Western Civilization and also to that particular civilization pulling ahead in matters of science and technology, among other things.
The problem with the 'enlightenment', a horrible name for the era, is that it implies the dark ages were really dark, when in fact they were not and probably a more innovative time than the 'enlightenment' itself. Besides the fact that it was the bedrock of the french revolution and that led to a lot of innocent slaughter in the establishment of an atheist 'church'.
Speaking of the social revolution in MX, the state there also killed a lot catholics trying to stomp out religion, so that is nothing new when it comes to socialist/communists revolutions.

Yes, marriage is a civil union. I am 100% fine with that. My personal beliefs tell me different and that marriage is a sacrament with God as well as your spouse. But that has no bearing on anyone else but me, God and whoever the poor woman is that I marry. For now.

I am not sure how it works in MX but you still have to obtain a wedding license (the state has to collect your money for the right to get to married LOL). After that, the priest, rabbi, shaman, medicine man, judge has to sign the license and then it is filed. While the ceremony itself can be anywhere, the state is still very much involved.

Do you not see this happening?- The state passes a law that all marriage is a protected constitutional right. A gay couple wants to be married in the Catholic church and they are denied. They will then file a lawsuit that claims their constitutional right will be violated. It will be just like the wedding cake baker all over. We know that is what will happen.

 

[Farb]

More victim complex from a religious zealot. The second sentence is laughable hyperbole. People don't need to be married through religious institutions so nothing stops a church from refusing to marry two gay people. Wake me when religious institutions are made to pay taxes... they get way too much special treatment and the Free Exercise Clause is used as a weapon against rational thought.

I am fine with the churches paying taxes, although that does kind of muddy the waters on the so loved 'separation of church and state'.

 

[Farb]

They gays don't want to get married in your churches.

You speak for all gays?

Also, I don't believe you because I personally know 2 that wish they could. But continue being a monolith.

 

[Farb]

How can they ”move away” from something that is a conspiracy theory? Something that is made up in some outrage porn fever dreams?

Really, you have been shown repeatedly that they are indeed giving 12 year olds puberty blockers and removing the breasts of 15 and 16 year old girls. So tell me again how this is not happening?

 

[Farb]

I'm not really interested in discussing these overly rehashed topics with you as we've done in so many post in the past. It's just beating a dead horse. You're framing and beliefs on these topics are exaggerated distortions from right wing outrage media.

Right, much like the Q thing with the left. That is your outrage porn. If I believe Q thinys because I am conservative, then you also have to believe the extreme gender theoryisms as well.

 

[brandon]

they are indeed giving 12 year olds puberty blockers

How old should one be before one receives puberty blockers?

 

[SaulGoodmanEsq]

I am fine with the churches paying taxes, although that does kind of muddy the waters on the so loved 'separation of church and state'.

Why? I'd argue the reverse -- which is the current state of affairs -- is true. Let them pay taxes like pretty much everyone else (except millionaires and corporations who find loopholes!).

 

[SaulGoodmanEsq]

And I'll add to the thread in general... the whole thing with allowing teenagers or younger to undergo gender reassignment/hormone blockers/whatever... it's a bit of a weird hill to die on. I don't think it's that onerous or improper to maybe make kids hold off until they are 18.

This is one of many reasons why Democrats have been losing ground in the last couple of decades. Catering too much on obscure issues that a lot of moderates and middle Americans find a bit bizarre.

 

[MT15]

Really, you have been shown repeatedly that they are indeed giving 12 year olds puberty blockers and removing the breasts of 15 and 16 year old girls. So tell me again how this is not happening?

What isn’t happening is the situation you described - oh “bait and switch” guy, lol. You do this consistently - you may think we don’t notice but we do.

What isn’t happening is what you described in your post - the grand conspiracy by trans people to sexualize children and such. You know what you said, so don’t act like we are talking about something else.

 

[coldseat]

I am fine with the churches paying taxes, although that does kind of muddy the waters on the so loved 'separation of church and state'.

The SC and Christians have already destroyed the separation of church and state with its rulings and right wing political activism respectively. Might as well make churches pay taxes.

If churches would have stayed out of politics, maybe you'd have a point.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

I was unaware of this:

Kathoey - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Religion[edit]​

Bunmi, a Thai Buddhist author, believes that homosexuality stems from "lower level spirits" (phi-sang-thewada), a factor that is influenced by one's past life.[4] Some Buddhists view kathoeys as persons born with a disability as a consequence of past sins.[4][dubious – discuss] Using the notion of karma, some Thais believe that being a kathoey is the result of transgressions in past lives, concluding that kathoey deserve pity rather than blame.[11]Others, however, believe that kathoeys should rectify their past life transgressions.[12] This is done through merit-making such as "making donations to a temple or by ordaining as monks".[12]

kathoeys is kinda like a ladyboy.


In Thailand they practice Theravada Buddhism which is a more conservative form of Buddhism.

 

[SystemShock]

There is indeed. And, the 'age of reason' is not necessarily a bad thing at all, and reason and religion are not enemies. On the contrary, they have walked hand in hand with the development of Western Civilization and also to that particular civilization pulling ahead in matters of science and technology, among other things.
The problem with the 'enlightenment', a horrible name for the era, is that it implies the dark ages were really dark, when in fact they were not and probably a more innovative time than the 'enlightenment' itself. Besides the fact that it was the bedrock of the french revolution and that led to a lot of innocent slaughter in the establishment of an atheist 'church'.
Speaking of the social revolution in MX, the state there also killed a lot catholics trying to stomp out religion, so that is nothing new when it comes to socialist/communists revolutions.

There is so much wrong there, I don't know where to start, and I don't want to type a lot, but rapid fire:

1. Reason and religion do not walk hand in hand; "trust in the unknown", "faith is blind", "don't trust education", it all goes against reason.

2. I have no idea what innovations you are talking about, but in any case, the Age of Reason refers to ideology, not technology. At risk of being extremely reductionist, the Age of Reason comes about from questioning divinity, and starts the rise of human secularism.

3. Reason and religion did not walk hand in hand in the development of Western civilization. On the contrary, it was the rejection of religion that allowed the West to rise ideology wise and technology wise.

4. The bedrock (or perhaps quarry) of the French revolution was the rejection of the divine right of kings, the abuse the people received at the hands of the king, the marked social disparity in which the overwhelming majority of the population lived in poverty and was starving, while the king and his rich lived lives of excess, best exemplified by he infamous "let them eat cake" .

5. There is no such thing as an atheist church.

6. The Constitution of 1917 took all political power from the Catholic church, fully separating church and State, but it wasn't out of the blue, it was because the Catholic church fully supported 2 dictators who oppressed the poor and the native people of MX. A group of religious zealots, dubbed "cristeros", led by the Knights of Columbus, then started a rebellion in central MX against the new democratic government, demanding the separation of church and State be abolished; this rebellion included the executions of secular teachers, BTW. Even the KKK got in on it (on the side of the MX government).

I am not sure how it works in MX but you still have to obtain a wedding license (the state has to collect your money for the right to get to married LOL). After that, the priest, rabbi, shaman, medicine man, judge has to sign the license and then it is filed. While the ceremony itself can be anywhere, the state is still very much involved.

In MX, no priest, rabbi, shaman, medicine man can sign and/or file anything. You have to go to the Civil Registrar, in person, and bring with you a number of documents, along with witnesses; you even have to file a basic pre-nup, before you are declared married.

Do you not see this happening?- The state passes a law that all marriage is a protected constitutional right. A gay couple wants to be married in the Catholic church and they are denied. They will then file a lawsuit that claims their constitutional right will be violated. It will be just like the wedding cake baker all over. We know that is what will happen.

First, I'll say, for the life of me, I can't understand why any gay person would want to be Catholic (or any Christian denomination for that matter)... but the only thing that the Catholic church (or any church) has to do is, stop filing marriage licenses and declare weddings performed in churches a 100% religious rite. Start paying taxes wouldn't hurt either.

 

[CoolBrees]

I almost had an aneurysm at Farb’s world history lesson. That is one very different view of the enlightenment and dark ages than I have ever heard. My term paper on Robespierre was waaay off!

Do you have any other world history that you could share your opinion on? Say the Inquisition? Or Sale if Indulgences?

 

[Optimus Prime]

HELENA, Mont. (AP) — A Montana state judge has determined three laws passed by Montana’s Republican-controlled legislature to regulate activities on university campuses are unconstitutional, including one that sought to ban transgender women from participating on female collegiate sports teams.

Montana’s Constitution gives the state board of regents full authority to govern public college campuses and precludes state lawmakers from imposing their own rules, District Court Judge Rienne McElyea said in a ruling issued Wednesday that was emailed to attorneys in the case on Friday.

Her ruling noted that the Montana Supreme Court recently affirmed the same conclusion in a challenge to a bill that sought to allow more people to carry guns on campuses.

The ruling is the second judicial setback of the week on laws passed by Montana’s 2021 Legislature that affected transgender residents.

A different state judge on Thursday clarified that he temporarily blocked health officials from enforcing a state rule that would prevent transgender people from changing the gender on their birth certificate.

In response, the Republican-run state on Thursday said it would defy the order.

The ruling comes amid a heated national debate over whether transgender women should be allowed to participate in female sports at the high school and collegiate level………

Montana judge rules transgender sports rule unconstitutional

HELENA, Mont. (AP) — A Montana state judge has determined three laws passed by Montana's Republican-controlled legislature to regulate activities on university campuses are unconstitutional, including one that sought to ban transgender women from participating on female collegiate sports teams.

apnews.com

 

[Taurus]

And I'll add to the thread in general... the whole thing with allowing teenagers or younger to undergo gender reassignment/hormone blockers/whatever... it's a bit of a weird hill to die on. I don't think it's that onerous or improper to maybe make kids hold off until they are 18.

This is one of many reasons why Democrats have been losing ground in the last couple of decades. Catering too much on obscure issues that a lot of moderates and middle Americans find a bit bizarre.

Not to mention race.

Yes, it's about our foundational principles of justice for all and equal treatment under the law.
But it only directly affects a minority (by definition) of voters.
Alienating white people in order to court minorities is a losing tactic, no matter how noble the intent.

 

[Taurus]

You don't say! I had no idea.

There is indeed. And, the 'age of reason' is not necessarily a bad thing at all, and reason and religion are not enemies. On the contrary, they have walked hand in hand with the development of Western Civilization and also to that particular civilization pulling ahead in matters of science and technology, among other things.
The problem with the 'enlightenment', a horrible name for the era, is that it implies the dark ages were really dark, when in fact they were not and probably a more innovative time than the 'enlightenment' itself. Besides the fact that it was the bedrock of the french revolution and that led to a lot of innocent slaughter in the establishment of an atheist 'church'.
Speaking of the social revolution in MX, the state there also killed a lot catholics trying to stomp out religion, so that is nothing new when it comes to socialist/communists revolutions.

Yes, marriage is a civil union. I am 100% fine with that. My personal beliefs tell me different and that marriage is a sacrament with God as well as your spouse. But that has no bearing on anyone else but me, God and whoever the poor woman is that I marry. For now.

I am not sure how it works in MX but you still have to obtain a wedding license (the state has to collect your money for the right to get to married LOL). After that, the priest, rabbi, shaman, medicine man, judge has to sign the license and then it is filed. While the ceremony itself can be anywhere, the state is still very much involved.

Do you not see this happening?- The state passes a law that all marriage is a protected constitutional right. A gay couple wants to be married in the Catholic church and they are denied. They will then file a lawsuit that claims their constitutional right will be violated. It will be just like the wedding cake baker all over. We know that is what will happen.

No. It didn't and doesn't happen. Gay Catholics know damn well the Church won't marry them and that filing suit is pointless as the First Amendment is squarely against them.
What gay people want and are fully entitled to is to have their Wiccan marriage in Idaho recognized federally and in every state they might enter. Just like a Baptist couple from Tennessee has a right for their marriage to be recognized in Oregon.

 

[samiam5211]

Did I say that? Oh, it is what you think all conservatives think. Got it. Carry on.

yea, it's not a direct quote, but you have actually made it very clear that is how you feel.

 

[Optimus Prime]

As a sophomore at Oakton High School, Rivka Vizcardo-Lichter would rather be worrying about things like driver's education. But after Virginia Gov. Glenn Youngkin's administration released Friday he is rolling back transgender student accommodations in all state schools, she now finds herself having to take part in the game of political ping-pong.

Vizcardo-Lichter is the leader of the student-run organization Pride Liberation Project, as well as a member of the LGBTQ community. She told 7News that around 500 students have already reached out to her to express their concerns.

"I've spoken to students that are terrified that these protections will be removed and that their peers will be put at risk for depression, harassment, suicide," Vizcardo-Lichter said. "These proposed regulations are only going to hurt the mental health of transgender students. Using a student's true pronoun and name has consistently been shown to prevent suicide and depression. Denying that autonomy to students only worsens the mental health crisis."............

MSN