All Things LGBTQ+ (1 Viewer)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[Taurus]

As a sophomore at Oakton High School, Rivka Vizcardo-Lichter would rather be worrying about things like driver's education. But after Virginia Gov. Glenn Youngkin's administration released Friday he is rolling back transgender student accommodations in all state schools, she now finds herself having to take part in the game of political ping-pong.

Vizcardo-Lichter is the leader of the student-run organization Pride Liberation Project, as well as a member of the LGBTQ community. She told 7News that around 500 students have already reached out to her to express their concerns.

"I've spoken to students that are terrified that these protections will be removed and that their peers will be put at risk for depression, harassment, suicide," Vizcardo-Lichter said. "These proposed regulations are only going to hurt the mental health of transgender students. Using a student's true pronoun and name has consistently been shown to prevent suicide and depression. Denying that autonomy to students only worsens the mental health crisis."............

MSN

Well, yeah Rivka. That's the point. They think you're a defective degenerate and they want you to die.

 

[Optimus Prime]

 

[Farb]

Why? I'd argue the reverse -- which is the current state of affairs -- is true. Let them pay taxes like pretty much everyone else (except millionaires and corporations who find loopholes!).

Then you would/could have the position of a state foreclosing or seizing property on a church or using the IRS (has been done before, just a few years ago) to go on an anti-religion crusade, as is the current state of affairs in this country/society.

 

[Farb]

And I'll add to the thread in general... the whole thing with allowing teenagers or younger to undergo gender reassignment/hormone blockers/whatever... it's a bit of a weird hill to die on. I don't think it's that onerous or improper to maybe make kids hold off until they are 18.

This is one of many reasons why Democrats have been losing ground in the last couple of decades. Catering too much on obscure issues that a lot of moderates and middle Americans find a bit bizarre.

I have, although not as eloquent, been trying to make that point on this thread. This transitioning kids is actually setting back the LGTBQ movement as a whole. IMO.

 

[coldseat]

Then you would/could have the position of a state foreclosing or seizing property on a church or using the IRS (has been done before, just a few years ago) to go on an anti-religion crusade, as is the current state of affairs in this country/society.

I actually think the 1st amendment would prohibit that. It would in essence be "prohibiting the free exchange of religion" by shutting down the church, even if it's because of unpaid taxes. So there would likely have to be some carve out in tax code that forces the IRS to work out some agreement should churches not be able to pay their taxes short of foreclosing or seizing property.

 

[Farb]

What isn’t happening is the situation you described - oh “bait and switch” guy, lol. You do this consistently - you may think we don’t notice but we do.

What isn’t happening is what you described in your post - the grand conspiracy by trans people to sexualize children and such. You know what you said, so don’t act like we are talking about something else.

Do you notice though?
Yes, I believe what I said to believe. To me, it is obvious.
What I also believe is that removing breasts off of a physically healthy 16 year old girl to help in treating a mental disorder is border line criminal and the fact that people like you still are trying to rationalize it in your head proves how people are social animals and will tend to follow the cultural institutions leads.

 

[Farb]

The SC and Christians have already destroyed the separation of church and state with its rulings and right wing political activism respectively. Might as well make churches pay taxes.

If churches would have stayed out of politics, maybe you'd have a point.

Are you saying having a stance on abortion is playing politics?

So, you are then in favor of DeSantis having Disney to pay their taxes since they are in the political game.

 

[samiam5211]

So, you are then in favor of DeSantis having Disney to pay their taxes since they are in the political game.

Disney should have to pay their taxes anyway. Just like every other corporation.

 

[coldseat]

Are you saying having a stance on abortion is playing politics?

Preachers telling their adherents that Democrats/Biden are evil and that it would be sinful to vote for Democrats is playing politics. And yes, getting over invlolved in abortion and LGBTQ politics is playing politics.

So, you are then in favor of DeSantis having Disney to pay their taxes since they are in the political game.

Disney has always payed taxes. Eliminating their special taxing district didn't change that. They just lost control of the land around them. Which I'm sure will be good for that area since it was in such squalor.

 

[Farb]

There is so much wrong there, I don't know where to start, and I don't want to type a lot, but rapid fire:

1. Reason and religion do not walk hand in hand; "trust in the unknown", "faith is blind", "don't trust education", it all goes against reason.

2. I have no idea what innovations you are talking about, but in any case, the Age of Reason refers to ideology, not technology. At risk of being extremely reductionist, the Age of Reason comes about from questioning divinity, and starts the rise of human secularism.

3. Reason and religion did not walk hand in hand in the development of Western civilization. On the contrary, it was the rejection of religion that allowed the West to rise ideology wise and technology wise.

4. The bedrock (or perhaps quarry) of the French revolution was the rejection of the divine right of kings, the abuse the people received at the hands of the king, the marked social disparity in which the overwhelming majority of the population lived in poverty and was starving, while the king and his rich lived lives of excess, best exemplified by he infamous "let them eat cake" .

5. There is no such thing as an atheist church.

6. The Constitution of 1917 took all political power from the Catholic church, fully separating church and State, but it wasn't out of the blue, it was because the Catholic church fully supported 2 dictators who oppressed the poor and the native people of MX. A group of religious zealots, dubbed "cristeros", led by the Knights of Columbus, then started a rebellion in central MX against the new democratic government, demanding the separation of church and State be abolished; this rebellion included the executions of secular teachers, BTW. Even the KKK got in on it (on the side of the MX government).


In MX, no priest, rabbi, shaman, medicine man can sign and/or file anything. You have to go to the Civil Registrar, in person, and bring with you a number of documents, along with witnesses; you even have to file a basic pre-nup, before you are declared married.



First, I'll say, for the life of me, I can't understand why any gay person would want to be Catholic (or any Christian denomination for that matter)... but the only thing that the Catholic church (or any church) has to do is, stop filing marriage licenses and declare weddings performed in churches a 100% religious rite. Start paying taxes wouldn't hurt either.

1. I should have been more clear. Not religion, as religion is was the main 'squasher' of science and reason. To be more precise, Christianity goes hand in hand with scientific advancement as well as technological. The monotheistic religion, because it believed in a rational, all knowing God created the universe. It was up to humans, as the likeness of God to understand the world he created.

2. Again, should have been more clear. Not the 'age of reason' but the Greek's investment into reason. This led to democracy as well as the beginning of the scientific process. But yes, the 'age of reason' began as a natural progression against 'mysticism'. I think that is what it came after.

3. You are incorrect on this. The West could not have risen and surpassed the rest of the world without Christianity and mainly (you are going to hate this one) the catholic church. Your thinking comes from the 'enlightenment' correct? Finally braking free of the horrible shackles of the all powerful and suppressive catholic church?

4. Sure, the French Revolution was a revolution against royalty but it was also a revolt against religion. If not, they why were hundreds of thousands of priests, bishops, nuns, monks and clergy tortured and executed along with church property seized and converted to atheist's shrines?

5. The Temples of Reason in France? Brought about by the Cult of Reason. This was the 'new' revolutionary state religion in France during the FR.

6. Why did the religious zealots revolt? I thought the reason the church supported the dictators government was because it was opposing the side that wanted to destroy the catholic church in MX? Once the leadership changed and started seizing church properties and other anti religion movement along with executing priests (notice a trend) then the zealots started their revolt of the original revolt. I think I got that right.

 

[MT15]

Do you notice though?
Yes, I believe what I said to believe. To me, it is obvious.
What I also believe is that removing breasts off of a physically healthy 16 year old girl to help in treating a mental disorder is border line criminal and the fact that people like you still are trying to rationalize it in your head proves how people are social animals and will tend to follow the cultural institutions leads.

We still don’t know these surgeries had to do with trans kids, though, IIRC. These are breast reductions, which are done for other reasons, quite often. yes, even on 16 yo with parental and doctor consent. Your insistence on calling it by a name that implies mutilation is a real tell that you’re not exactly talking about something you know about.

I posit that you’re the one being led around by people who are making money off of inciting your outrage, and you’re the one having to rationalize stuff just so you can demonize people you don’t like very much. For what Farb? Just to make some sort of tribal declaration of fealty? Oh, look, I’m the good guy here. You all are just sickos. What do you call that, there’s a term for it….lol.

 

[Optimus Prime]

I posted this on EE in the Trans Athletes thread
============================

I don't know if the science on this has changed but i remember a class i took in school saying that men and women think about things differently.

Literally. During brain scans of men and women being exposed to different pictures, video clips of various situations (a crying baby, a wedding , a boxing match etc.)

And the scans showed that the men were pretty consistent with other man and women with women but men and women were different from each other

If that's true I wonder what that experiment would show for transgendered people - would the scan align with their birth gender or what they identify as?

Very interesting article
================
Many years ago at a wedding reception, a transgender woman showed me a scan of the human brain. One section — the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis, in fact — was highlighted. “You see?” she said. “It’s not my fault!”

The thing that was not her fault (she said) was being trans. Research at the time suggested that this particular brain structure in trans women was much more like that of cisgender women, rather than cis men, lending some support to the idea that transness is a neurological condition, not so different from cerebral palsy or epilepsy.

As opposed to, say, simply being someone who’s obsessed with stilettos and sponge cake.
When I came out in 2000, I remember trying to explain my situation by using some of this same language. I begged people for understanding and kindness. My voice was more than a little apologetic. Please, I said to those I loved. I’m hard-wired this way! It’s not my fault!

Twenty-two years later, the idea that trans people need to explain themselves to others feels a little weird. Being trans is no longer something we believe we need to apologize for. It is, at least in some circles, a thing to celebrate.

And yet, even as the idea that trans people are a curiosity that needs to be explained by science fades from currency, the very medical care that science has developed and that trans people need is being taken away. Conservatives are trying to curtail it, in hopes of erasing us altogether.

Last month, Florida became at least the ninth state to bar trans people from using Medicaid to help pay for gender-affirming care.

The reason? Transition care is not, the state has determined, a medical necessity.

In a report issued in June, the state went against decades of medical opinion. “Florida Medicaid has determined that the research supporting sex reassignment treatment is insufficient to demonstrate efficacy and safety,” said the report, which is signed by Gov. Ron DeSantis (R).

As a result, many people who have been on hormones for years, and in some cases decades, will be forced to de-transition if they cannot find other coverage or if they are unable to pay for health care themselves.

When I read about this, I wondered, briefly, whether any “proof” that being trans is at least in part about neurology would have altered Florida’s decision.

Back in 2000, the protocol for treatment (which guided my own transition) required at least three months of psychological counseling before the prescribing of hormones and a minimum number of months on hormones before approval for surgery.

At the time, the protocol also required that a candidate for surgery live in the “target gender” for a year, without going back, to make sure they knew what they were getting into.

I didn’t have any trouble following all those rules back then. I really did want to be careful..........

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/09/13/trans-health-care-medicaid-jenny-boylan/

 

[SaulGoodmanEsq]

I have, although not as eloquent, been trying to make that point on this thread. This transitioning kids is actually setting back the LGTBQ movement as a whole. IMO.

You're plenty eloquent, just a bit too troll-ish!

 

[SaulGoodmanEsq]

Then you would/could have the position of a state foreclosing or seizing property on a church or using the IRS (has been done before, just a few years ago) to go on an anti-religion crusade, as is the current state of affairs in this country/society.

There would have to be legitimate grounds to do so and the church would be protected by the court system. They just wouldn't get any special privileges.

 

[SystemShock]

1. I should have been more clear. Not religion, as religion is was the main 'squasher' of science and reason. To be more precise, Christianity goes hand in hand with scientific advancement as well as technological.

No. Remember Galileo?

2. Again, should have been more clear. Not the 'age of reason' but the Greek's investment into reason. This led to democracy as well as the beginning of the scientific process. But yes, the 'age of reason' began as a natural progression against 'mysticism'.

No. It was against religion.

3. You are incorrect on this. The West could not have risen and surpassed the rest of the world without Christianity

No. The West rose after the rise of secular humanism.

4. Sure, the French Revolution was a revolution against royalty but it was also a revolt against religion.If not, they why were hundreds of thousands of priests, bishops, nuns, monks and clergy tortured and executed along with church property seized and converted to atheist's shrines?

They were executed because they were part of the class that oppressed the masses

6. Why did the religious zealots revolt? I thought the reason the church supported the dictators government was because it was opposing the side that wanted to destroy the catholic church in MX?

As I said, the religious zealots revolt because the State took away their political clout; the opposing side (you know, the ones who wanted democracy and not a military dictatorship) wanted to destroy the church in MX because the church's behavior, its support for an oppressive regime, and its role in the oppression of the masses.

Once the leadership changed and started seizing church properties and other anti religion movement along with executing priests (notice a trend) then the zealots started their revolt of the original revolt. I think I got that right.

After priests were blessing firing squads during the dictatorships, they deserved a taste of their own medicine.

 

[Farb]

Disney should have to pay their taxes anyway. Just like every other corporation.

So no subsites or tax breaks at all, across the board, as long as that business stays politically neutral?

 

[Farb]

Preachers telling their adherents that Democrats/Biden are evil and that it would be sinful to vote for Democrats is playing politics. And yes, getting over invlolved in abortion and LGBTQ politics is playing politics.



Disney has always payed taxes. Eliminating their special taxing district didn't change that. They just lost control of the land around them. Which I'm sure will be good for that area since it was in such squalor.

Do you see a difference between that and the anti-religious push of the left to label all those that believe their religious tenants to be evil and bigoted? I assume you also see it both ways, correct?

 

[Farb]

We still don’t know these surgeries had to do with trans kids, though, IIRC. These are breast reductions, which are done for other reasons, quite often. yes, even on 16 yo with parental and doctor consent. Your insistence on calling it by a name that implies mutilation is a real tell that you’re not exactly talking about something you know about.

I posit that you’re the one being led around by people who are making money off of inciting your outrage, and you’re the one having to rationalize stuff just so you can demonize people you don’t like very much. For what Farb? Just to make some sort of tribal declaration of fealty? Oh, look, I’m the good guy here. You all are just sickos. What do you call that, there’s a term for it….lol.

You have been shown here many many times that it indeed happening to children. You just refuse to see it. The reason they are doing it ideological (much like your ability to not question at all simply because you cannot fathom that the medical community might not be as neutral politically as they want you to believe).

Also notice how the Boston hospital quietly took down all the videos and documents related to age and practice in the trans health community. Vanderbilt just did the same thing yesterday as an article was published showing their desire to make money and also threatening the providers that if they had any moral dilemmas then 'maybe Vanderbilt is the not place for you to work'. Here is one video from you favorite person Matt Walsh that he was able to save before Vanderbilt got wind that they were being investigated by the media. Feel free to search their website, you won't find it any long or really any information about trans health criteria. Odd. Can you explain that besides just clutching pearls at the name of the journalist?