All Things LGBTQ+ (4 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[SystemShock]

Specifically, you are talking about a division based on birth genitals that has been shown to you time and again to be far less cut and dry than you make it out to be.

For crying out loud... Based on the physiological differences in between males and females of our species.

You mentioned outliers in the context of chromosomal issues, birth defects, and other issues present at birth. Here, I can quote it for you:

Nah, I mentioned other sort of outliers.... but in any case, outliers are outliers.

Should Evans-Smith not be allowed to compete with women, then, since she has such a strong jaw?

Given your response, seems obvious you don't know, but one of the most common side effects of steroid abuse in women is enlarged jaws.

Ronda Rousey has multiple 1st round wins via KO. Should we create a new division for her as well?

If by "multiple" you mean 2, I guess you are right.
But the KO itself is not the main point. Rousey never beat up anyone as thoroughly as Fox beat Brents, although she did break Maesha Tate's arm with an arm bar.

Except that it does, because these governing bodies allow trans athletes to compete, which negates your premise.

It doesn't. The governing bodies in some sorts may be allowing it ( that word "outliers" again), but it is definitely not because transgenders become the other member of the species, but rather due to outside pressure for the sake of wokeness. And with the the outcry from real women competitors and the public they have started to clamp down on it.

Goes without saying, not because something is done, it is the right thing to do.

You say that trans people are male or female based on genitals and physiology

Well, genitals are part of physiology, but if you feel the need to separate them...

and that there's no changing that. If we accept that premise as true, then the governing bodies that allow trans athletes to compete in classes/divisions that match their gender identity actively disproves your assertion that there are male-female divisions.

C&P
It doesn't. The governing bodies in some sorts may be allowing it, but it is definitely not because transgenders become the other member of the species, but rather due to outside pressure for the sake of wokeness. And with the the outcry from real women competitors and the public they have started to clamp down on it.

It isn't complex to you because you've already made up your mind.

Making one mind doesn't make something simple or complex. One can make up his mind on simple and complex issues.

And what's so bad about made minds? You obviously have your mind made too.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

For crying out loud... Based on the physiological differences in between males and females of our species.

Which I did mention further down. I didn't intend this as a misrepresentation of your argument.

Nah, I mentioned other sort of outliers.... but in any case, outliers are outliers.

You brought it up in the context of chromosomal and birth defects. In fact, you doubled down on that:

If you tell me you were not going to point out that people are born with combinations other than XX and XY and ask me if they were males or females, I'll call you a liar.



Again, do I have to define male and female of the species? Is it not clear?

And in the same vein as above, I predict you will bring up birth defects and outliers, like females born without a uterus, etc., and ask me if they were males or females.

Given your response, seems obvious you don't know, but one of the most common side effects of steroid abuse in women is enlarged jaws.

I wasn't aware of that specific side effect, though I am aware that Evans-Smith tested positive at least once in her career. That changes the phrasing of the question, but still doesn't answer it- should that steroid use prevent Evans-Smith from competing in MMA events against other women?

If by "multiple" you mean 2, I guess you are right.

There's a third right around that mark, which is close enough for this example. Rousey thoroughly dominated the women she fought. Does that mean she shouldn't be allowed to compete against them anymore?

She never beat up anyone as thoroughly as Fox beat Brents, although she did break Maesha Tate's arm with an arm bar.

She may not have, but others have. Fallon Fox is not the only person to have injured an opponent in that manner. If you want to point to her causing those injuries as a by-product of her transitioning without any proof, I can point to the similar injuries suffered by others and say that Fox's transition had nothing to do with it.

It doesn't. The governing bodies in some sorts may be allowing it ( that word "outliers" again), but it is definitely not because transgenders become the other member of the species, but rather due to outside pressure for the sake of wokeness. And with the the outcry from real women competitors and the public they have started to clamp down on it.

The reason it's allowed doesn't matter. You claimed that this division exists and that it is a simple situation. I've just shown you that it doesn't exist and given you examples, and you brush them off to double-down on your incorrect claim.

Also, saying shirt like "due to outside pressure for the sake of wokeness" and "outcry from real women competitors" makes you sound like a religious right nutjob again.

Goes without saying, not because something is done, it is the right thing to do.

You haven't proven that it's the wrong thing, either. Hell, that's the entire reason I keep saying that it's a complex situation. There is no one right answer to this situation.

Well, genitals are part of physiology, but if you feel the need to separate them...

Highlighting a specific aspect isn't separation. If the TV weather presenter says "Mississippi is in for a series of storms today. Jackson is expected to get 5 inches of rain," they are not separating Jackson from the rest of Mississippi. They are highlighting that specific area.

C&P
It doesn't. The governing bodies in some sorts may be allowing it, but it is definitely not because transgenders become the other member of the species, but rather due to outside pressure for the sake of wokeness. And with the the outcry from real women competitors and the public they have started to clamp down on it.

Wow, it seems like you really feel like doubling down on that right-wing playbook you're using.

Making one mind doesn't make something simple or complex. One can make up his mind on simple and complex issues.

I'll clarify. You've already made up your mind that this is a simple issue. You refuse to consider any other positions that deviate from the position you have chosen.

And what's so bad about made minds? You obviously have your mind made too.

I'm nowhere near set on this. There's a difference between my mind not being made up and me deciding that your approach is ridiculous and wrong.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Nothing says pride and acceptance as much as dancing in drag for adults. Makes perfect sense.

I suspect you see perversions where they aren't because of your own perverted predilections. Try to overcome them, please, and stop boring us with them.

 

[MT15]

Can you prove that if a child alters his/her body to accommodate gender dysphoria has any effect on that childs mental well being in the long term (does it help prevent suicide)? It appears to proven science so the data should be readily available.

This article isn’t talking about that (altering his body). It’s talking about the parents actions against him, and his appeal to his grandparents so that he can continue to live.

 

[MT15]

Can you provide a link on this besides a random twitter? This feels like a 'this didn't happen like it is being said it happened' incident.

This is fair. So yes, I can:

Samford University excludes Presbyterians and Episcopalians – Baptist News Global

Concerned alumni believe this is evidence of a larger effort to sweep the campus of any influence from LGBTQ-affirming voices.

baptistnews.com

 

[SystemShock]

That changes the phrasing of the question, but still doesn't answer it- should that steroid use prevent Evans-Smith from competing in MMA events against other women?

What? LOL.
Come on... you are asking me if athletes should be allowed to use PEDs. The answer is no.

Rousey thoroughly dominated the women she fought. Does that mean she shouldn't be allowed to compete against them anymore?

LOL
Rousey dominated most of the women she fought mostly by submission because she was a champion judoka, up until she ran into Holly Holm who, unlike Rousey, shows the tell tale signs of steroid use, who then ran into Miesha Tate, who ran into Amanda Nunes.... But that's a common fallacy, trying to compare a superstar female athlete with a transgender woman as if they were the same, which they aren't.

She may not have, but others have. Fallon Fox is not the only person to have injured an opponent in that manner. If you want to point to her causing those injuries as a by-product of her transitioning without any proof, I can point to the similar injuries suffered by others and say that Fox's transition had nothing to do with it.

You didn't read what Brents said, or you ignored it.
Injuries like that happen in the fight game, heck, even deaths, but, you'll be hard pressed to find someone who was injured with so many injuries that fast, unless there is a significant mismatch between the participants, which was the case with Fox and Brents.

The reason it's allowed doesn't matter.

Oh, yes it does.

You claimed that this division exists and that it is a simple situation. I've just shown you that it doesn't exist and given you examples, and you brush them off to double-down on your incorrect claim.

No, you have shown that there are outliers, who should not be allowed to participate to begin with. My claim is not incorrect: what has happened, that the definitions of "gender" and "woman" has been modified, which is a birch because now I need to type "female of the species" instead of "woman" so most people know what I am talking about, and some sports organizations have given in to outside pressures. But the division never had to deal with "gender" before, or people thinking transgender women are actually women (as in females of the species).

Also, saying shirt like "due to outside pressure for the sake of wokeness" and "outcry from real women competitors" makes you sound like a religious right nutjob again.

Riiiiiiiiiight.

You haven't proven that it's the wrong thing, either.

I guess that depends on whether you want to watch physiological mismatches and don't give a shirt about females of out species.

Highlighting a specific aspect isn't separation. If the TV weather presenter says "Mississippi is in for a series of storms today. Jackson is expected to get 5 inches of rain," they are not separating Jackson from the rest of Mississippi. They are highlighting that specific area.

What? LOL

Wow, it seems like you really feel like doubling down on that right-wing playbook you're using.

You found me out!!!!!

I'll clarify. You've already made up your mind that this is a simple issue. You refuse to consider any other positions that deviate from the position you have chosen.

Because it is a simple issue.... then again, I am an engineer....
And I don't refuse to consider other positions, I do consider them, but considering is not the same as accepting.

I'm nowhere near set on this. There's a difference between my mind not being made up and me deciding that your approach is ridiculous and wrong.

Surely seems you have.

Are transgender women females of the species?

 

[Farb]

This article isn’t talking about that (altering his body). It’s talking about the parents actions against him, and his appeal to his grandparents so that he can continue to live.

Ok, can you show me the study that proves acceptance of the trans community has a net positive effect on the suicide rate in that community?

 

[cuddlemonkey]

What? LOL.
Come on... you are asking me if athletes should be allowed to use PEDs. The answer is no.

I am asking you if an athlete that has used PEDs in the past should be allowed to compete in the future, provided they do not fail any drug tests.

LOL
Rousey dominated most of the women she fought mostly by submission because she was a champion judoka, up until she ran into Holly Holm who, unlike Rousey, shows the tell tale signs of steroid use, who then ran into Miesha Tate, who ran into Amanda Nunes.... But that's a common fallacy, trying to compare a superstar female athlete with a transgender woman as if they were the same, which they aren't.

What I am saying is that a cis woman that appears to be clean when it comes to PEDs can dominate her competition and that it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with being trans.

You didn't read what Brents said, or you ignored it.
Injuries like that happen in the fight game, heck, even deaths, but, you'll be hard pressed to find someone who was injured with so many injuries that fast, unless there is a significant mismatch between the participants, which was the case with Fox and Brents.

I read it. Maybe the mismatch was based on talent, as demonstrated above with Ronda Rousey's impressive abilities.

Oh, yes it does.

Oh no, I have been bested. I give up in the face of your brilliant logic.

No, you have shown that there are outliers, who should not be allowed to participate to begin with. My claim is not incorrect: what has happened, that the definitions of "gender" and "woman" has been modified, which is a birch because now I need to type "female of the species" instead of "woman" so most people know what I am talking about, and some sports organizations have given in to outside pressures. But the division never had to deal with "gender" before, or people thinking transgender women are actually women (as in females of the species).

This is a really transphobic way of saying that you disagree with the governing bodies of various sports that make decisions in conjunction with experts that are much more informed than you.

Riiiiiiiiiight.

Are you saying that you've never heard similar statements with terms like "woke" from the far right?

I guess that depends on whether you want to watch physiological mismatches and don't give a shirt about females of out species.

Come on, Farb.

Wait.

My bad. You sounded just like him for a second there.

What? LOL

Jackson is a city in Mississippi. Singling out Jackson when discussing Mississippi does not mean Jackson is no longer related to Mississippi.

Genitals are a part of our physiological makeup. Singling out genitals when discussing physiology does not mean genitals are no longer related to physiology.

Seems pretty clear to me.

You found me out!!!!!

I mean... you said some shirt straight from the far right playbook, then literally copy/pasted it. That's on you.

Because it is a simple issue.... then again, I am an engineer....
And I don't refuse to consider other positions, I do consider them, but considering is not the same as accepting.

Except you've been shown how it is a complex, evolving issue, which is the complete opposite of simple. Refusing to accept reality is even worse than refusing to consider reality.

Surely seems you have.

Are transgender women females of the species?

Keeping this on the topic at hand- the difference as it applies to sports- I would say that gender identity is an important part of who we are and that anybody participating in sports should meet the requirements set forth by the governing body of the league in question. In the case of some athletes, they have met those requirements and have been allowed to compete. If someone identifies as trans, they should be allowed to compete as long as they meet the guidelines of the governing body, which takes a lot of time and effort to achieve. In the case of Fallon Fox, for example, she underwent gender affirmation surgery and two years of HRT. Someone willing to stick with their dreams and goals through this process deserves a chance to compete.

 

[MT15]

Ok, can you show me the study that proves acceptance of the trans community has a net positive effect on the suicide rate in that community?

I don’t have to run errands for you. But do you doubt that being ostracized, ridiculed, called satanic and a pedophile might be more injurious to a person‘s mental health than being accepted as a valuable member of society? Is that your position? Lol.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Ok, can you show me the study that proves acceptance of the trans community has a net positive effect on the suicide rate in that community?

Family Acceptance Saves Lives

This September, HRC marks National Suicide Prevention Awareness Month by recognizing the fundamental role parents play in fostering a safe and inclusive…

www.hrc.org

"This September, HRC marks National Suicide Prevention Awareness Month by reaffirming our commitment to support the wellbeing of LGBTQ youth and adults.

Though this support can come in many forms, HRC recognizes the fundamental role parents play in fostering a safe and inclusive community for young people.

According to a 2016 study published in LGBT Health, family rejection increases the odds of substance misuse and suicide attempts in transgender and gender non-conforming people. These results mirror research by Dr. Caitlin Ryan and the Family Acceptance Project, which found that LGBTQ youth whose families affirm their gender identity and sexual orientation are almost 50 percent less likely to make a suicide attempt compared to those whose families are unsupportive. "

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Suicide and Suicidal Behavior among Transgender Persons - PMC

Suicide rate and suicidal tendencies among transgender persons are considerably high compared to general population. Hence, this review is an attempt to understand the issues around the suicide and suicidal behavior among transgender persons. The ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

​

"The suicide attempt rate among transgender persons ranges from 32% to 50% across the countries. Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons.​

Conclusion:​

In spite of facing a number of hardships in their day-to-day life, the transgender community holds a number of resiliency factors. Further, this community needs to be supported to strengthen their resiliency factors and draw culturally sensitive and transgender-inclusive suicide prevention strategies and increase protective factors to tackle this high rate of suicidality."

 

[Optimus Prime]

I'm constantly amazed at how many people truly enjoy being gigantic butt crevasses under the guise of 'freedom'
====================================================================

A candidate for school board in Michigan has come under fire for sharing on social media an LGBTQ Pride flag in the shape of a swastika — and he’s standing behind it.

Craig Ladyman is running for the Rockford school board in the Grand Rapids metropolitan area. Last week, he shared on Truth Social a collage of four Pride flags in the shape of the graphic symbol adopted by Adolf Hitler and used as the emblem of the German Nazi party and is still favored by neo-Nazi groups.

“Like my new Pride flag?” Ladyman captioned the since-deleted post.

The image was sharply criticized by members of the Jewish community, LGBTQ people, as well as local leaders, including Rockford Public Schools Superintendent Steven Matthews, who said that the image made him feel “angry.”

“It’s a symbol that I don’t think represents who we are as a community and anybody who would use it I don’t think represents who we are as a community,” Matthews told local television station WXMI-TV.

But the controversial candidate, whose political ad states that he “will never go along with unconstitutional mandates, medical tyranny or the woke agenda,” didn’t back down when asked to comment on the backlash.............

Michigan school board candidate defends use of swastika-shaped Pride flag on social media

 

[brandon]

Craig Ladyman

You can't make this stuff up.

 

[Farb]

I don’t have to run errands for you. But do you doubt that being ostracized, ridiculed, called satanic and a pedophile might be more injurious to a person‘s mental health than being accepted as a valuable member of society? Is that your position? Lol.

Got it. There are none and your entire argument is just made up.
The LGTBQ group has NEVER before in human history been more accepted, some would argue even celebrated, in human history, so by your own logic we should see a drastic reduction in mental health issues and suicide in LGTBQ group and especially in the trans community.
If you don't, then everything you just typed in this reply you simply don't believe and are regurgitating talking points.

 

[Farb]

"This September, HRC marks National Suicide Prevention Awareness Month by reaffirming our commitment to support the wellbeing of LGBTQ youth and adults.

Though this support can come in many forms, HRC recognizes the fundamental role parents play in fostering a safe and inclusive community for young people.

According to a 2016 study published in LGBT Health, family rejection increases the odds of substance misuse and suicide attempts in transgender and gender non-conforming people. These results mirror research by Dr. Caitlin Ryan and the Family Acceptance Project, which found that LGBTQ youth whose families affirm their gender identity and sexual orientation are almost 50 percent less likely to make a suicide attempt compared to those whose families are unsupportive. "

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

​

"The suicide attempt rate among transgender persons ranges from 32% to 50% across the countries. Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons.​

Conclusion:​

In spite of facing a number of hardships in their day-to-day life, the transgender community holds a number of resiliency factors. Further, this community needs to be supported to strengthen their resiliency factors and draw culturally sensitive and transgender-inclusive suicide prevention strategies and increase protective factors to tackle this high rate of suicidality."

32% to 50% that is high. With public acceptance it should be on the down trend, if in fact the suicide rate is based on discrimination, correct? I would be more interested in see what it is now, with trans people being elevated in the last several years compared to when they had to lead secretive lives.

 

[MT15]

32% to 50% that is high. With public acceptance it should be on the down trend, if in fact the suicide rate is based on discrimination, correct? I would be more interested in see what it is now, with trans people being elevated in the last several years compared to when they had to lead secretive lives.

Your disconnect with reality is really something, you think the recent escalation of hostility toward trans people means they are more accepted now than ever?

 

[coldseat]

32% to 50% that is high. With public acceptance it should be on the down trend, if in fact the suicide rate is based on discrimination, correct? I would be more interested in see what it is now, with trans people being elevated in the last several years compared to when they had to lead secretive lives.

You have a weird definition of "being elevated". I don't think trans people being targeted by discriminatory laws in every Republican state qualifies as "being elevated". I can tell you personally that as just a regular gay guy, it doesn't really feel like the public is "on our side" in much of the country. From a mental and emotional standpoint the public, governmental and legal landscape has not contributed to a more positive outlook these last 4 years. If anything, its been a primary factor in feeling disenchanted, stressed and angry. That certainly hasn't contributed to better mental health. Feeling like you have to move to another state just to feel safe, secure and have legal rights isn't reassuring in the least. And this isn't just me, I know a lot of LGBTQ people that feel the same.

Your side is winning in a lot of places and that is scarry for all of us.

 

[Farb]

Your disconnect with reality is really something, you think the recent escalation of hostility toward trans people means they are more accepted now than ever?

What recent hospitality? I see every institution of this country celebrating transing kids. Trans kids are in cartoons now, books, shows and movies. So, there have never been more accepting time to be trans, so if you assertion is that the suicide rate is due to not be accepted, then there has to be a noticeable drop in suicide rates among trans kids/teens. If not then acceptance is not the problem, it is the actual mental disorder that the professionals trying to treat by permanently altering the body (can't think of another mental disorder they do this for).

 

[Farb]

You have a weird definition of "being elevated". I don't think trans people being targeted by discriminatory laws in every Republican state qualifies as "being elevated". I can tell you personally that as just a regular gay guy, it doesn't really feel like the public is "on our side" in much of the country. From a mental and emotional standpoint the public, governmental and legal landscape has not contributed to a more positive outlook these last 4 years. If anything, its been a primary factor in feeling disenchanted, stressed and angry. That certainly hasn't contributed to better mental health. Feeling like you have to move to another state just to feel safe, secure and have legal rights isn't reassuring in the least. And this isn't just me, I know a lot of LGBTQ people that feel the same.

Your side is winning in a lot of places and that is scarry for all of us.

I don't know a single person that cares about someone being gay. Maybe because I hang out with progressive folks. I do know a lot of people that are uneasy about the transing kids thing, including a lot of gays.
Do you think you are feeling the blow back that is aimed at the trans community?