All Things LGBTQ+ (2 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Then there's this
=======================

A teacher in Kansas was awarded $95,000 Wednesday to settle a lawsuit after she misgendered a student but claimed that she should be allowed to because of her religious beliefs.

The former math teacher at Fort Riley Middle School, Pamela Ricard, claimed it was a violation of her religious beliefs to use the preferred pronouns of a trans boy student and insisted on addressing him as “miss.”

She was reprimanded and suspended for three days for violating the bullying, diversity, and inclusion policies. She sued the school district...........

MSN

www.msn.com

A teacher who refused to use a transitioning student's chosen pronouns, saying they went against his Christian beliefs, was jailed after ignoring a court order that barred him from entering his school's grounds.

Enoch Burke, who teaches German, history and politics at Wilson's Hospital School in Westmeath, Ireland, was arrested on Monday morning and sent to Mountjoy prison for contempt of court.

"It is insanity that I will be led from this courtroom to a place of incarceration, but I will not give up my Christian beliefs," Burke, an evangelical Christian, said after a judge ruled he was to be sent to jail.

He was found on the school grounds despite being suspended and placed on administrative leave after an outburst against the use of gender-neutral pronouns in June, when he publicly disputed a trans student's choice of using "they/them" as their preferred pronouns.

The school then asked Burke to respect the student's gender identity, but Burke refused to do so, reportedly saying that a belief system was forced upon the school, its staff and its students that went against the teaching of the Church of Ireland. He also said being forced to respect a transitioning student using their preferred pronouns was in breach of his constitutional rights..............

MSN

www.msn.com

 

[cuddlemonkey]

My argument is based on facts. Their arguments are based on religion. How is that comparable?

Broken clocks... but I don't sound like Ben Shapiro, because I am simply offering facts, facts that you have not even addressed in your condescending efforts to discredit me instead of my points.

I'm not going to keep going in circles with you on this. Instead, I want to just highlight these two statements to illustrate the larger point.

You say your argument is based on facts, but most of what you say is an appeal to emotion and not fact. From what I can see, you have already made up your mind and have decided to dig in your heels instead of viewing this as the complex, ever-changing situation that it actually is. That's a play straight from the religious right's book.

You also said "the truth does not offend but uncomfortable" (thanks, Google translate), which is literally "facts don't care about your feelings", then claimed you don't sound like Ben Shapiro.

This reads to me like someone who isn't taking into account any points made in opposing arguments, opting to instead reiterate their own talking points over and over. Even worse, it reads like it was written by someone who has lost the ability to critically evaluate their own statements when confronted with something they don't like- in this case, comparisons to the religious right and Ben Shapiro.

 

[RobF]

A teacher who refused to use a transitioning student's chosen pronouns, saying they went against his Christian beliefs, was jailed after ignoring a court order that barred him from entering his school's grounds.

Enoch Burke, who teaches German, history and politics at Wilson's Hospital School in Westmeath, Ireland, was arrested on Monday morning and sent to Mountjoy prison for contempt of court.

"It is insanity that I will be led from this courtroom to a place of incarceration, but I will not give up my Christian beliefs," Burke, an evangelical Christian, said after a judge ruled he was to be sent to jail.

He was found on the school grounds despite being suspended and placed on administrative leave after an outburst against the use of gender-neutral pronouns in June, when he publicly disputed a trans student's choice of using "they/them" as their preferred pronouns.

The school then asked Burke to respect the student's gender identity, but Burke refused to do so, reportedly saying that a belief system was forced upon the school, its staff and its students that went against the teaching of the Church of Ireland. He also said being forced to respect a transitioning student using their preferred pronouns was in breach of his constitutional rights..............

MSN

www.msn.com

I heard about this, and the article may be slightly misleading. Here's an earlier Irish Times article about it:

School secures temporary injunction against Enoch Burke who opposes calling student ‘they’

Enoch Burke is on paid administrative leave pending the outcome of an ongoing disciplinary process, court told

www.irishtimes.com

So when it says he was suspended and placed on administrative leave when he "publicly disputed" using someone's pronouns, what it's referring to is, according to the school, his interrupting a service for the school's 260th anniversary to attack the school's policy, the position taken on respecting the particular student, and transgenderism in general, and then following that, went on to follow and harass the school's principal after the follow-up dinner.

Unsurprisingly, that got him suspended.

He then ignored that, and kept turning up at the school regardless. Which isn't how that works.

So that got him an injunction restraining him from attending the school's premises. Which he then ignored.

And that is what's got him jailed.

 

[Farb]

Your one source from Sweden comes from a group of 100 people who are dedicated to stopping the use of puberty blockers. Here’s the “About Us” from your link:

“We are an international group of over 100 clinicians and researchers concerned about the lack of quality evidence for the use of hormonal and surgical interventions as first-line treatment for young people with gender dysphoria. We represent expertise from a range of clinical disciplines.”

Can you show that anyplace other than Sweden has stopped prescribing these drugs? Can you show anything from a neutral source?

Nice attempt to deflect about the radicalization. (not really). Your response to the fact that Boston Children’s Hospital getting bomb threats and other violent threats was the give-away that you’re becoming radicalized. You characterized threats of violence as deserved.

Rationalizing violence against a children’s hospital means you may be much farther down the road to radicalization than even you think you are. But it’s apparent to anyone who reads what you say.

So I and the article was mistaken, Sweden did not pause the use of hormone therapies?

Can you show me a study on the benifits of hormone theory for treating gender dysphoria? I will wait. Also, see if you can find some long term studies on the effects of gender affirming care?

Was there actually a threat? I read that the police called an all clear very soon after the threat. That seems like a short amount of time to clear an entire hospital from a credible threat.

You seem incredibly flippant when describing me as a radicalized threat due to politics. I should not be surprised since your side can only call names and level personal attacks because you can't actually defend your position. When you leaders are telling you that those that disagree with you are a threat and are domestic terrorist, I guess you really listen and take that in. I am sure you make them proud.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/sep/5/biden-uses-labor-day-speech-call-maga-republicans-/


Did you also get the memo from the DOJ about concerned parents and the boogeymen or domestic terrorists?

Again, yeah, I am the one being radicalized. Cookoo town.

 

[Farb]

^^^ good lord, what is wrong with these people?

Probably nothing as they probably don't exist. Do we have more information on these these 4 internet trolls? Like, do they really exist?

 

[Farb]

I'm not going to keep going in circles with you on this. Instead, I want to just highlight these two statements to illustrate the larger point.

You say your argument is based on facts, but most of what you say is an appeal to emotion and not fact. From what I can see, you have already made up your mind and have decided to dig in your heels instead of viewing this as the complex, ever-changing situation that it actually is. That's a play straight from the religious right's book.

You also said "the truth does not offend but uncomfortable" (thanks, Google translate), which is literally "facts don't care about your feelings", then claimed you don't sound like Ben Shapiro.

This reads to me like someone who isn't taking into account any points made in opposing arguments, opting to instead reiterate their own talking points over and over. Even worse, it reads like it was written by someone who has lost the ability to critically evaluate their own statements when confronted with something they don't like- in this case, comparisons to the religious right and Ben Shapiro.

How do you define 'religious right'?
You need to give @SystemShock a working definition since he is one now. We don't want the guy to join the priesthood out of a mistake with your definition of the label you threw on him.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

How do you define 'religious right'?
You need to give @SystemShock a working definition since he is one now. We don't want the guy to join the priesthood out of a mistake with your definition of the label you threw on him.

I never said he was part of the religious right and nothing I said in my post could be honestly interpreted that way. If all you're going to do is willfully misrepresent the things I say, save us both the trouble and don't respond anymore. Your bullshirt schtick is tired.

 

[MT15]

So I and the article was mistaken, Sweden did not pause the use of hormone therapies?

Can you show me a study on the benifits of hormone theory for treating gender dysphoria? I will wait. Also, see if you can find some long term studies on the effects of gender affirming care?

Was there actually a threat? I read that the police called an all clear very soon after the threat. That seems like a short amount of time to clear an entire hospital from a credible threat.

You seem incredibly flippant when describing me as a radicalized threat due to politics. I should not be surprised since your side can only call names and level personal attacks because you can't actually defend your position. When you leaders are telling you that those that disagree with you are a threat and are domestic terrorist, I guess you really listen and take that in. I am sure you make them proud.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/sep/5/biden-uses-labor-day-speech-call-maga-republicans-/


Did you also get the memo from the DOJ about concerned parents and the boogeymen or domestic terrorists?

Again, yeah, I am the one being radicalized. Cookoo town.

I never said Sweden hasn’t paused use of some sort of therapy. I don’t know whether they did or not and I couldn’t care less. Certainly not enough to try to figure it out.

But your source is extremely biased as they say so themselves. They are exactly 100 clinical people (not all MDs) out of millions of professionals world-wide, so no, I’m not believing them just on their say-so.

People have shown you where the use of puberty blockers is the standard of care in the US, and we have discussed the professional protocols for their use. So, no, I am decidedly not going to run around the internet doing your errands. You can just go pound sand. You’ve been shown and refuse to acknowledge it.

I think you are the one being incredibly flippant (recklessly so) about threats of violence. You have shown me your true colors when your response to a bomb threat to a hospital is that they essentially deserved it. And your denial of the actual horrible people of KiwiFarms is just right on brand for someone who is evidently okay with threats and harassment of people they don’t like.

I stand by my opinion. You’re being radicalized to accept violence against trans people.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

"Transgender History in the United States

A special unabridged version of a book chapter from Trans Bodies, Trans Selves, edited by Laura Erickson-Schroth

...........................................snip...................................



reading contemporary gender
nonconformity: The example of Billy Tipton

The experiences of Billy Tipton, a jazz musician who lived as a man for more than fifty years and who was not discovered to have been assigned female until his death in 1989, are reminiscent of those of Murray Hall. Similarly, Tipton avoided doctors and died from a treatable medical condition, rather than risk disclosure. He also apparently had to turn away from what could have been his big break in the music industry, for fear that the expo- sure would “out” him. In later years, he chose to live in poverty, rather than claim Social Security benefits, seemingly for the same reason (Middlebrook, 1998).

Tipton, like Hall, kept knowledge of his anatomy from even his family mem- bers. He was apparently able to prevent several women with whom he had long-term relationships and his three adopted sons from discovering that he had been assigned female at birth by dressing and bathing behind a locked door and by using a prosthetic device that enabled him to simulate having a penis during sexual activities. In addition, Tipton kept his chest bound with a bandage, stating that he had suffered permanent injuries in a car accident. With his last partner, he also used this story to explain why he could not have sex.

Also similar to Hall, Tipton, who did not leave behind any documentation of how he identified or explain his choices to anyone, has been the subject of competing gender nar- ratives. Literary critic Marjorie Garber (1992), for example, treats Tipton as a “transves- tite” and lesbian historian Lillian Faderman (1991) considers him to have been a woman who felt compelled to pass as a man in order to succeed as a musician in the 1930s. A biography of Tipton by Diane Wood Middlebrook (1998) creates an even more muddled portrait. Arbitrarily employing both male and female pronouns, Middlebrook admits that Tipton may have seen himself as a man or may have been a transgender person, even stat- ing that at least two of his partners, his sons, and some of his former band members con- tinue to think of him as a man, but she never seriously explores these possibilities. Instead, Middlebrook conjectures that Tipton was engaging in a performance, “playing the role of Billy,” and once in that role, could not escape it (217).

But other authors respect Tipton’s apparent identity. Anthropologist Jason Cromwell (1999), an FTM (female-to-male) person himself, criticizes Middlebrook and other writ- ers who consider Tipton to be either a closeted lesbian or a prime example of the extent to which women have gone to make a living in a male bastion like the music industry. He states:

Billy Tipton’s life speaks for itself. The male privileges that accrue from living as a man do not justify spending fifty years living in fear, hiding from loved ones, taking extreme measures to make sure that no one knows what their body is or looks like, and then dying from a treatable medical condition (a bleeding ulcer). When someone like Tipton dies or is discovered, they are discounted as having been “not real men” or “unreal men.” Despite having lived for years as men, the motivations of these individuals are read as being wrought of socio- economic necessity or the individuals are considered to be lesbians. Does this mean that “anatomy is not destiny” while one is alive but “anatomy is destiny” after death? (89-90).

According to all the information we have available, Tipton sought to live his life as a man and to die as one. To characterize him otherwise implies that this history does not matter or, worse, that it is a lie. Not only does this view deny Tipton’s agency, but it also negates the experiences of all transgender people, for it means that regardless of how someone might express or identify their gender, only the gender assigned to that individual at birth matters. Ironically, many of the lesbian individuals and communities that have claimed Tipton, Murray Hall, and other female-assigned men as one of their own after their deaths may have rejected and sought to exclude Tipton and Hall from “women’s space” while they were alive (Cromwell, 1998).

....................................................snip........................................

https://www.umass.edu/stonewall/sites/default/files/Infoforandabout/transpeople/genny_beemyn_transgender_history_in_the_united_states.pdf

 

[bird]

So I and the article was mistaken, Sweden did not pause the use of hormone therapies?

Can you show me a study on the benifits of hormone theory for treating gender dysphoria? I will wait. Also, see if you can find some long term studies on the effects of gender affirming care?

Was there actually a threat? I read that the police called an all clear very soon after the threat. That seems like a short amount of time to clear an entire hospital from a credible threat.

You seem incredibly flippant when describing me as a radicalized threat due to politics. I should not be surprised since your side can only call names and level personal attacks because you can't actually defend your position. When you leaders are telling you that those that disagree with you are a threat and are domestic terrorist, I guess you really listen and take that in. I am sure you make them proud.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/sep/5/biden-uses-labor-day-speech-call-maga-republicans-/


Did you also get the memo from the DOJ about concerned parents and the boogeymen or domestic terrorists?

Again, yeah, I am the one being radicalized. Cookoo town.

Well, I am glad you admitted to being radicalized. Now, go get some help.

 

[SystemShock]

I'm not going to keep going in circles with you on this. Instead, I want to just highlight these two statements to illustrate the larger point.

You say your argument is based on facts, but most of what you say is an appeal to emotion and not fact.

The only emotions here are yours.
Yet again, fact is, the male-female division in sports is a biological division between the male and female of the species.
Where is the emotional appeal in that?

From what I can see, you have already made up your mind and have decided to dig in your heels

You just can't help yourself, can you?

instead of viewing this as the complex, ever-changing situation that it actually is.

It really isn't that complex.

That's a play straight from the religious right's book.

You really, really can't help yourself.
The religious right playbook is the Bible. Mine is biology.

You also said "the truth does not offend but uncomfortable"

Better translated is, the truth does not offend but makes you feel uncomfortable.

which is literally "facts don't care about your feelings", then claimed you don't sound like Ben Shapiro.

Because facts don't care about your feelings. But by all means, show us an example where facts care about your feelings?

And no, I don't sound like Ben Shapiro. The idea/concept may be based on the same facts, but nope, not Ben Shapiro

This reads to me like someone who isn't taking into account any points made in opposing arguments,

Like you have.

opting to instead reiterate their own talking points over and over. Even worse, it reads like it was written by someone who has lost the ability to critically evaluate their own statements when confronted with something they don't like- in this case, comparisons to the religious right and Ben Shapiro.

I am going to ask you to do the same thing I asked someone over at SR: if you are going to continue to throw strawmen at me, at least make sure the hay is dry.

 

[SystemShock]

Can you cite a particular scripture to support this?

Sure. Keep in mind these were written centuries ago and the intended audience, and more importantly, I am not making this argument, just showing it. Had to add the last bit because our buddy above keeps accusing me of making it.

First, we need to begin in Genesis with the claims that God made man in his own image, that he created male and female, which I assume people are familiar with; that's the Lord's work and can't be messed with.

More specifically there is Deuteronomy, that in 22:5 says a woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God; as well as 23:1 which says no one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord.

Those two Deuteronomy passages are very specific, and it's easy to see how it applies to transgenderism.

Now, transgenderism in on itself doesn't define sexuality, meaning that a trans woman could very well be attracted to females only, or trans men attracted only to males. However, the "logic" would be that a man who wants to be a woman, "logically" wants to have sexual relations with males. Then Leviticus 20:13 enters the conversation, if a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

From there on, any mention of sexual sins includes transgenderism.

Side note: you know how I said you can make biblical arguments for or against anything?
1 Corinthians 11:12 : For as woman was made from man"

 

[bird]

Sure. Keep in mind these were written centuries ago and the intended audience, and more importantly, I am not making this argument, just showing it. Had to add the last bit because our buddy above keeps accusing me of making it.

First, we need to begin in Genesis with the claims that God made man in his own image, that he created male and female, which I assume people are familiar with; that's the Lord's work and can't be messed with.

More specifically there is Deuteronomy, that in 22:5 says a woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God; as well as 23:1 which says no one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord.

Those two Deuteronomy passages are very specific, and it's easy to see how it applies to transgenderism.

Now, transgenderism in on itself doesn't define sexuality, meaning that a trans woman could very well be attracted to females only, or trans men attracted only to males. However, the "logic" would be that a man who wants to be a woman, "logically" wants to have sexual relations with males. Then Leviticus 20:13 enters the conversation, if a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

From there on, any mention of sexual sins includes transgenderism.

Side note: you know how I said you can make biblical arguments for or against anything?
1 Corinthians 11:12 : For as woman was made from man"

Except it doesn’t and is also irrelevant.

 

[SystemShock]

A teacher who refused to use a transitioning student's chosen pronouns, saying they went against his Christian beliefs, was jailed after ignoring a court order that barred him from entering his school's grounds.

Enoch Burke, who teaches German, history and politics at Wilson's Hospital School in Westmeath, Ireland, was arrested on Monday morning and sent to Mountjoy prison for contempt of court.

"It is insanity that I will be led from this courtroom to a place of incarceration, but I will not give up my Christian beliefs," Burke, an evangelical Christian, said after a judge ruled he was to be sent to jail.

He was found on the school grounds despite being suspended and placed on administrative leave after an outburst against the use of gender-neutral pronouns in June, when he publicly disputed a trans student's choice of using "they/them" as their preferred pronouns.

The school then asked Burke to respect the student's gender identity, but Burke refused to do so, reportedly saying that a belief system was forced upon the school, its staff and its students that went against the teaching of the Church of Ireland. He also said being forced to respect a transitioning student using their preferred pronouns was in breach of his constitutional rights..............

MSN

www.msn.com

I guess he wants to be a martyr (evangelical Christian, so, yeah).. the teacher could simply use this student's last name, or go Bill Parcells and use "the student"...

One thing about this particular issue, the preferred pronoun, we only use pronouns when we are talking about someone, most likely not when that someone is present; so what difference does it really make? Forcing someone to use a certain pronoun when speaking about you, when you are not even there, is not going to make that person accept you.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

The only emotions here are yours.
Yet again, fact is, the male-female division in sports is a biological division between the male and female of the species.
Where is the emotional appeal in that?

"Count the arms and legs! Protect our females, won't someone think of what our females have gone through!" That's an emotional appeal. It's not a logical argument. Hell, it's not an argument at all.

You just can't help yourself, can you?

From pointing out your bullshirt, such as using "you just can't help yourself, can you" as half of your responses to me?

It really isn't that complex.

It is when you are actually trying to find an equitable solution.

You really, really can't help yourself.

That's twice in this post.

The religious right playbook is the Bible. Mine is biology.

I guess I need to clarify this point, but I'm not talking about a physical book. The way you present your arguments, whether they are based on religion or something else, is reminiscent of the way the religious right presents their arguments.

Better translated is, the truth does not offend but makes you feel uncomfortable.

Because facts don't care about your feelings. But by all means, show us an example where facts care about your feelings?

As I said, I used Google translate for a rough approximation, terrible grammar and all. But this is even closer to Shapiro's favorite saying.

And no, I don't sound like Ben Shapiro. The idea/concept may be based on the same facts, but nope, not Ben Shapiro

"Just because I say the exact same thing Ben Shapiro says doesn't mean I sound like Ben Shapiro."

Like you have.

Your strongest "argument" so far is to discount the experiences of trans people and demand that people count some arms and legs. I assure you that I took these "arguments" into account when I came to the conclusion that I did.

I am going to ask you to do the same thing I asked someone over at SR: if you are going to continue to throw strawmen at me, at least make sure the hay is dry.

When you repeat the exact same shirt as Ben Shapiro, you don't get to call it a strawman when someone points it out. If you don't like it being pointed out, stop forking doing it.

 

[SystemShock]

Your strongest "argument" so far is to discount the experiences of trans people and demand that people count some arms and legs. I assure you that I took these "arguments" into account when I came to the conclusion that I did.

Yet again, you really have to dry the hay.

BTW, did you count the arms and legs in that picture?

When you repeat the exact same shirt as Ben Shapiro, you don't get to call it a strawman when someone points it out. If you don't like it being pointed out, stop forking doing it.

Let's try this:

Answer True or false:
The men-women division in sports is a biological division between males and females of the species.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Sure. Keep in mind these were written centuries ago and the intended audience, and more importantly, I am not making this argument, just showing it. Had to add the last bit because our buddy above keeps accusing me of making it.

I never said that at all. It's almost like you created your own narrative to attack instead of addressing what I actually said. I feel like there's a term for that...

I am going to ask you to do the same thing I asked someone over at SR: if you are going to continue to throw strawmen at me, at least make sure the hay is dry.

To quote Bart Simpson: The ironing is delicious.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Yet again, you really have to dry the hay.

BTW, did you count the arms and legs in that picture?

Ok, then. If I am wrong, tell me what your best argument is and what you have that supports it.

Let's try this:

Answer True or false:
The men-women division in sports is a biological division between males and females of the species.

Back to blanket statements with no gray area to be found. Ironic that the discussion is about gender (which exists on a spectrum) and you insist on a binary answer.