All Things LGBTQ+ (2 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[coldseat]

First, I will say, it is concerning that you mention primary school, which normally refers to kids 6 to 12 years of age. We don't let kids 6 to 12 make any important decisions and question their non important decisions.... but that's a separate discussion.

I should have said primary and secondary, but I meant all the way up to 12th grade, whatever their age is.

As for a solution, the first step towards any solution is for both extreme sides to understand that transgender people are not aberrations of nature, nor actual members of the opposite biology they were born with, respectively.

Maybe it's just me, but it feels forked up to tell a group of people, who have their own agency, who they are, what they are and what they should believe about themselves. Maybe it isn't to you, but to them it's more than just about their biological sex they where born with.

I have to note that I have an issue with the phrase "sex they were assigned at birth"... no one assigned sex to anyone; that's how sex organs developed. But again, a separate discussion.

Again, feel free to try and force transgendered people to accept your verbiage and point of view, but I don't think they're going to accept.

But in the meantime, I don't see why we can't accommodate transgenders like we accommodate millions of people who have conditions that don't allow them to play on the regular divisions, and give them their venue to play competitive sports.

Because as I already said, there aren't the numbers, desire and funding to do so. You'd probably have to have country wide transgender leagues for middle and high school kids just to have enough to make a league. Parents would have to travel miles just to have enough kids to practice on one team. It's just not a feasible solution.

In the meantime, let's continue to protect our females, shall we?

The statement really does give away the plot. Woman are under no threat from transgendered woman, in sports or otherwise. "Protecting Females" doesn't need to be a goal or objective in this discussion.

 

[SystemShock]

I should have said primary and secondary, but I meant all the way up to 12th grade, whatever their age is.

I get it... again, I feel that's another discussion.

Maybe it's just me, but it feels forked up to tell a group of people, who have their own agency, who they are, what they are and what they should believe about themselves.

I don't want to dictate who anyone is or what to believe about themselves. But what we are, is what we are.

Again, feel free to try and force transgendered people to accept your verbiage and point of view, but I don't think they're going to accept.

Again, another discussion, but the word "assigned" has a certain connotation, when which sex organs develop is literally the luck of the draw.

Because as I already said, there aren't the numbers, desire and funding to do so. You'd probably have to have country wide transgender leagues for middle and high school kids just to have enough to make a league. Parents would have to travel miles just to have enough kids to practice on one team. It's just not a feasible solution.

Thousands of parents already travel miles so their kids can play. And they don't have to be transgender exclusive leagues; they can be open to any gender who wants to participate.

The statement really does give away the plot. Woman are under no threat from transgendered woman, in sports or otherwise. "Protecting Females" doesn't need to be a goal or objective in this discussion.

But it does. In a world that still sees women be 2nd class citizens, in which women are forced to walk around covered head to toe, brides returned to their families because they are "no good" then burned because they don't have any further value, their reproductive rights are taken away from them (and the many consequences that brings), etc etc etc, it is yet another form of telling women what they are (speaking of) and controlling them.

 

[MT15]

Several states that have passed these laws preventing trans kids from competing in sports have exactly 1 trans kid participating in school sports. It’s definitely a solution in search of a problem at the elementary or middle school level. Post-puberty we can have a discussion. But these laws take a sledgehammer to a flea.

 

[coldseat]

I get it... again, I feel that's another discussion.


I don't want to dictate who anyone is or what to believe about themselves. But what we are, is what we are.

Yes, but transgendered woman are saying that "what they are" is woman who where born into a male body. You are saying that society (and they) should define themselves men who want to live as woman. They are not going to agree with you and they have their own agency to view and define "what" they are.

Again, another discussion, but the word "assigned" has a certain connotation, when which sex organs develop is literally the luck of the draw.


Thousands of parents already travel miles so their kids can play. And they don't have to be transgender exclusive leagues; they can be open to any gender who wants to participate.

Open gendered leagues isn't a terrible idea, I know they already exist in different formats. But for it to be equitable, they would have the public financial support and access that regular school sports have and run through schools.

But it does. In a world that still sees women be 2nd class citizens, in which women are forced to walk around covered head to toe, brides returned to their families because they are "no good" then burned because they don't have any further value, their reproductive rights are taken away from them (and the many consequences that brings), etc etc etc, it is yet another form of telling women what they are (speaking of) and controlling them.

None of that has happened because of transgendered people. Transgendered people pose none of those threats to biological woman. If anything, the people targeting transgendered people are the same people who oppress and target biological woman in all those ways you mentions. So as I said, it doesn't need to be part of "this" discussion.

 

[bird]

What does that mean? What exactly are you trying to say? Not many sports that can't be played without equipment.

There are millions of people who can't play sports for a myriad of reasons: they were born too short, too tall, with defective spines, without arms, without legs, with heart conditions, mental conditions, blood conditions, syndromes, etc etc etc.

All irrelevant to transgender. The numbers of transgender are extremely small.

 

[SystemShock]

All irrelevant to transgender.

How so?
Like it or not, being born with one set of sex organs and believing one is part of the group born with the other set of sex organs, is a disorder, and disorders prevent people from doing a lot of things all the time.

The numbers of transgender are extremely small.

Now, how's that relevant for your argument?

A small number of transgender athletes affects a very large portion of female athletes. Take Mia Thomas for example: Thomas' effect wasn't just one race; it affected every single female swimmer in the events Thomas participated.

 

[MT15]

Here is a good example of how LibsofTikTok stoked LBGTQ hate and spews lies. Their hateful posts are being picked up by Russian propagandists and spread all over the world. The videos posted by that account were very often manipulated, which is why I think they are now banned from almost every social media platform. It took far too long, IMO.

False: A leaflet distributed in UK schools encourages children to invite pedophiles into their homes.

There is no evidence that this leaflet was ever produced or distributed in the U.K. or anywhere else.

www.logically.ai

 

[SystemShock]

Yes, but transgendered woman are saying that "what they are" is woman who where born into a male body.

Or, what they are, males who believe to be women... we can go back and forth with it... but remember that, when it comes to the division in sports, and I reiterate, that is all I am talking about, the division is between members of the species, not what the members of the species think or believe they are. What you think your gender is has no bearing on the sex organs you are born with, right?

You are saying that society (and they) should define themselves men who want to live as woman. They are not going to agree with you and they have their own agency to view and define "what" they are.

I am very sure they are not going to agree with me. But I am not saying they should define themselves as anything. What I am saying, is that they should understand they were born with a condition that will limit them from doing certain things, just like any other person born with a condition that is limited from doing certain things.

Open gendered leagues isn't a terrible idea, I know they already exist in different formats. But for it to be equitable, they would have the public financial support and access that regular school sports have and run through schools.

It wasn't that long ago that the same thing was said about women's sports... then Title IX happened.

None of that has happened because of transgendered people.

I didn't accuse transgender people of being the cause of the oppression the females or our species have suffered and continue to suffer, no. But, forcing females of our species to compete against non females of our species, especially when education/financial/advancement concerns are at stake, it just adds to the list of things females of our species have to endure.

If anything, the people targeting transgendered people are the same people who oppress and target biological woman in all those ways you mentions.

In that, we agree.

So as I said, it doesn't need to be part of "this" discussion.

No, it still does, because there are people who oppress and target biological women, and now we are adding males telling females what a female is.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Several states that have passed these laws preventing trans kids from competing in sports have exactly 1 trans kid participating in school sports. It’s definitely a solution in search of a problem at the elementary or middle school level. Post-puberty we can have a discussion. But these laws take a sledgehammer to a flea.

Exactly. How the hell are you going to start a league for trans kids with so few participants?

 

[zztop]

“It sounds like a ham-fisted attempt to censor students and discriminate based on disagreement with perspectives and articles that were featured in the student newspaper,” said Sara Rips, an attorney for the Nebraska chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union.

Nebraska Press Assn. attorney Max Kautsch, who specializes in media law in Nebraska and Kansas, noted that press freedom is protected in the U.S. Constitution.

“The decision by the administration to eliminate the student newspaper violates students’ right to free speech, unless the school can show a legitimate educational reason for removing the option to participate in a class … that publishes award-winning material,” Kautsch said. “It is hard to imagine what that legitimate reason could be."

Nebraska school officials close down student newspaper that published LGBTQ articles

Three days earlier, the newspaper had printed its June edition, which included an article titled, “Pride and prejudice: LGBTQIA+” on the origins of Pride Month and the history of homophobia. It also included an editorial opposing a Florida law that bans some lessons on sexual orientation and gender identity, dubbed by critics as the “Don’t Say Gay” law.

Officials overseeing the district, which is based in Grand Island, have not said when or why the decision was made to eliminate the student paper. But an email from a school employee to the Independent canceling the student paper’s printing services May 22 said it was “because the school board and superintendent are unhappy with the last issue’s editorial content.”

 

[coldseat]

Or, what they are, males who believe to be women...

That's not how they (or medical standard or care of tansgendered people) define it.

we can go back and forth with it... but remember that, when it comes to the division in sports, and I reiterate, that is all I am talking about, the division is between members of the species, not what the members of the species think or believe they are. What you think your gender is has no bearing on the sex organs you are born with, right?

No, for the overwhelming majority of people, they correlate perfectly. For this subset of people, it does not.

I am very sure they are not going to agree with me. But I am not saying they should define themselves as anything. What I am saying, is that they should understand they were born with a condition that will limit them from doing certain things, just like any other person born with a condition that is limited from doing certain things.

The only limitations their conditions subject them to are those enforced by society (mostly out of prejudice). But transgenered woman in particular are accepting of limitations enforced to preserve competitive balance in sports with biological women. They accept that the reality that the male bodies they were born with (in the case of transgendered woman) may give them a competitive advantage in some sports and are willing to accept conditions for their participation. They just don't want to be outright excluded because of prejudice or fear mongering when there is no reason to fear them. And are asking to be included without condition when there is no proof or evidence of a competitive advantages.

It wasn't that long ago that the same thing was said about women's sports... then Title IX happened.


I didn't accuse transgender people of being the cause of the oppression the females or our species have suffered and continue to suffer, no. But, forcing females of our species to compete against non females of our species, especially when education/financial/advancement concerns are at stake, it just adds to the list of things females of our species have to endure.


In that, we agree.


No, it still does, because there are people who oppress and target biological women, and now we are adding males telling females what a female is.

We're not goin got agree on this. This is a nonquitter to me and totally irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[bird]

How so?
Like it or not, being born with one set of sex organs and believing one is part of the group born with the other set of sex organs, is a disorder, and disorders prevent people from doing a lot of things all the time.



Now, how's that relevant for your argument?

A small number of transgender athletes affects a very large portion of female athletes. Take Mia Thomas for example: Thomas' effect wasn't just one race; it affected every single female swimmer in the events Thomas participated.

Just come out, so to speak, and admit you are transphobic. Otherwise you are hiding behind tap-dancing. Lia Thomas won one championship. In addition, the NCAA is looking at requirements that transgender athletes, particularly male to female, take medication to suppress male hormone for 3 years prior to competing. Lia Thomas did not impact a “very large portion of female athletes”. She did impact those she competed directly against. She won once and finished 5th and 8th in two other races.

Gender issues are not the same as having, for example, Marfan’s or a host of other genetic conditions.

 

[Optimus Prime]

The far-right Christian group One Million Moms has launched a new campaign and the target is a little surprising, even for them. This time they aren’t upset with jewelry commercials or Sesame Street, the source of their ire is… other Christians.

Christianity is a “serious threat,” they warn, when practiced as described in the Bible and modeled by the religion’s namesake.

“Parents need to be warned and informed about a continuous threat, and now we have a powerful resource available to help parents with this serious problem,” they warned followers in an email blast.

The group is an astroturf project of the anti-LGBTQ hate group American Family Association. Despite the name, the group has a single employee, Monica Cole, that is employed by the larger organization.

Cole goes on to warn followers about the dangers of “gay Christianity.”

“Let’s see if you’ve heard any of these statements before,” Cole says in the blast. “‘God made people gay, and therefore being gay should be celebrated and affirmed.’ ‘Jesus never mentioned homosexuality even once.'”

“‘The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is about inhospitality and greed, not homosexuality.’ ‘If the Bible were written today, it would be gay affirming.’ ‘The Bible doesn’t say anything about sexual orientation. Christians hate gay people and need to change their theology to be more loving.'”

“If you’ve heard one or more of these statements before – whether on social media, in conversation with a family member, or even promoted by a supposedly Christian pastor – you have just encountered one of the many influences of ‘gay Christianity’,” she warns...........

Now the right is attacking Christians for not being anti-gay enough

 

[SystemShock]

Just come out, so to speak, and admit you are transphobic.

And there you go... most have 100% compliance in thought, otherwise I am transphobic. Same forking extremist mentality that the mentality that believes transgender people are an aberration of nature, just on the other side of the spectrum.

I am arguing about one single issue, 1, eine, uno issue, not the entirety of the transgender experience, and the only reason that I do, is because I take into consideration females of the species.

But it is easier to launch accusations and call names when you don't have an argument.

 

[SystemShock]

That's not how they (or medical standard or care of tansgendered people) define it.

It's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other, like partly cloudy vis a vis partly sunny.

No, for the overwhelming majority of people, they correlate perfectly. For this subset of people, it does not.

No argument there.

The only limitations their conditions subject them to are those enforced by society (mostly out of prejudice). But transgenered woman in particular are accepting of limitations enforced to preserve competitive balance in sports with biological women. They accept that the reality that the male bodies they were born with (in the case of transgendered woman) may give them a competitive advantage in some sports and are willing to accept conditions for their participation. They just don't want to be outright excluded because of prejudice or fear mongering when there is no reason to fear them. And are asking to be included without condition when there is no proof or evidence of a competitive advantages.

And I can sympathize with that sentiment and their condition, and I am all for finding venues for them to pursue their athletic endeavors. What I am against, is forcing females of our species to be placed at a disadvantage for the sake of 100% "inclusivity". ( I put inclusivity in quotes, because while it's become a buzzword, you and I know it is not the same as acceptance.) ... and not just when it comes to transgender people.

We're not goin got agree on this. This is a nonquitter to me and totally irrelevant to this discussion.

It is expected, that you'll be 100% with your tribe, without any concern for the "cis" tribe... which makes for an interesting situation, when you can decry anti-abortions laws because men want to control women's bodies, but have no issue telling women what they are.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

TRANSATHLETE US National Governing Bodies Transgender Policies

Policy for transgender athletes from United States national governing bodies and sport organizations.

www.transathlete.com

 

[cuddlemonkey]

And there you go... most have 100% compliance in thought, otherwise I am transphobic. Same forking extremist mentality that the mentality that believes transgender people are an aberration of nature, just on the other side of the spectrum.

I am arguing about one single issue, 1, eine, uno issue, not the entirety of the transgender experience, and the only reason that I do, is because I take into consideration females of the species.

But it is easier to launch accusations and call names when you don't have an argument.

The problem is that your arguments about this one single issue are completely dismissive of the experiences of trans people, which is why you're getting labeled as transphobic. Don't like the label? Stop saying transphobic shirt.

 

[coldseat]

It is expected, that you'll be 100% with your tribe, without any concern for the "cis" tribe... which makes for an interesting situation, when you can decry anti-abortions laws because men want to control women's bodies, but have no issue telling women what they are.

This is silly. I'm part of the "cis tribe". I didn't know that meant setting up a stawman and believing it. I just don't accept false arguments.

Woman are woman, I don't need to tell them what they are. But you sure are committed to telling trans woman what they are. Maybe look in the mirror.