All Things LGBTQ+ (4 Viewers)

[Farb]

Didn't really see a place for this so I thought I would start a thread about all things LGBTQ since this is a pretty hot topic in our culture right now

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/17/sup...y-that-refuses-to-work-with-lgbt-couples.html

• The Supreme Court on Thursday delivered a unanimous defeat to LGBT couples in a high-profile case over whether Philadelphia could refuse to contract with a Roman Catholic adoption agency that says its religious beliefs prevent it from working with same-sex foster parents.
• Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in an opinion for a majority of the court that Philadelphia violated the First Amendment by refusing to contract with Catholic Social Services once it learned that the organization would not certify same-sex couples for adoption.

I will admit, I was hopeful for this decision by the SCOTUS but I was surprised by the unanimous decision.

While I don't think there is anything wrong, per se, with same sex couples adopting and raising children (I actually think it is a good thing as it not an abortion) but I also did not want to see the state force a religious institution to bend to a societal norm.

 

[SystemShock]

I think the point the article was making is that our growing understanding of our biology is as varied and complex as our growing understanding of gender. That's why I posted it in response, sorry you got offended. I honestly didn't mean it a such.

Offended? Please...

But there you are, still trying to inject gender into it, which was really the point of the article.

And gender, to me, is meaningless. It has become synonymous with "how I feel". For years, some scientists tried to find the "gay gene", and they came up empty. I'd venture to say, the chances to find the pansexual gene, or the drag queen gene, or any of the other 30-some genders' gene is very slim to none.

And really, I don't care how anyone feels, how they want to dress, what part of their body they want to chop off, or who they have sex with: man, woman, sheep... I really don't, until that anyone wants to have sex with me, or their feelings become the detriment of others.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

For the most part, yes.

Seriously, though, where are we going with this?

It isn't necessarily going anywhere beyond me making sure I understand your point of view.

 

[coldseat]

Offended? Please...

But there you are, still trying to inject gender into it, which was really the point of the article.

And gender, to me, is meaningless. It has become synonymous with "how I feel". For years, some scientists tried to find the "gay gene", and they came up empty. I'd venture to say, the chances to find the pansexual gene, or the drag queen gene, or any of the other 30-some genders' gene is very slim to none.

And really, I don't care how anyone feels, how they want to dress, what part of their body they want to chop off, or who they have sex with: man, woman, sheep... I really don't, until that anyone wants to have sex with me, or their feelings become the detriment of others.

They haven't found a "gay gene", but they have found this (and much more).

Let’s just take the most famous example of sexual dimorphism in the brain: the sexually dimorphic nucleus of the preoptic area (sdnPOA). This tiny brain area with a disproportionately sized name is slightly larger in males than in females. But it’s unclear if that size difference indicates distinctly wired sdnPOAs in males versus females, or if—as with the bipotential primordium—the same wiring is functionally weighted toward opposite ends of a spectrum. Throw in the observation that the sdnPOA in gay men is closer to that of straight females than straight males, and the idea of “the male brain” falls apart.

Trying to link sex, sex chromosomes and sexual dimorphism is also useless for understanding other brain properties. The hormone vasopressin is dimorphic but is linked to both behavioral differences and similarities across sex. Simply put, the idea of a sexual binary isn’t scientifically useful, and nowhere is this more obvious than in the brain. It also happens that transgender people have the brains to prove it.

It’s easy to see sexual dimorphisms and conclude that the brain is binary; easy, but wrong. Thanks to the participation of trans people in research, we have expanded our understanding of how brain structure, sex and gender interact. For some properties like brain volume and connectivity, trans people possessed values in between those typical of cisgender males and females, both before and after transitioning. Another study found that for certain brain regions, trans individuals appeared similar to cis-individuals with the same gender identity. In that same study, researchers found specific areas of the brain where trans people seemed closer to those with the same assigned sex at birth. Other researchers discovered that trans people have unique structural differences from cis-individuals.

 

[SystemShock]

They haven't found a "gay gene", but they have found this (and much more).

That's great. Still, none of it makes individuals males or females of the species.

 

[coldseat]

That's great. Still, none of it makes individuals males or females of the species.

But it makes it more than "how I feel", which is how you defined gender. So it is with our biology and what makes us male, female or somewhere in-between.

 

[SystemShock]

But it makes it more than "how I feel", which is how you defined gender.

Cool. Could you point out the other 30+ differences in the brain for the other 30+ genders?

So it is with our biology and what makes us male, female or somewhere in-between.

No. What makes us male or female of the species is our reproductive organs. But by all means, present any data or evidence of a 3rd (or 30+) reproductive organ(s).

Male or female of the species doesn't care if you have sex with male or female or sheep; it doesn't care if you wear a dress and makeup or shirt and tie; it doesn't care how long your hair is, if you are feminine or masculine, how hairy you are, how tall/short/fat/skinny; it doesn't care if you don't want to be something other than male or female of the species, if you collect shoes or Black & Decker tools; if you are not sure what your gender is...

 

[coldseat]

Cool. Could you point out the other 30+ differences in the brain for the other 30+ genders?


No. What makes us male or female of the species is our reproductive organs. But by all means, present any data or evidence of a 3rd (or 30+) reproductive organ(s).

Male or female of the species doesn't care if you have sex with male or female or sheep; it doesn't care if you wear a dress and makeup or shirt and tie; it doesn't care how long your hair is, if you are feminine or masculine, how hairy you are, how tall/short/fat/skinny; it doesn't care if you don't want to be something other than male or female of the species, if you collect shoes or Black & Decker tools; if you are not sure what your gender is...

I don't know what you mean by care, but whether our gonads develop or don't has to do with more than just our chromosomal makeup. It's not just one factor in our biology, which is why there is variance. But whatever, you are free to believe what you want. As are we all.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

No. What makes us male or female of the species is our reproductive organs. But by all means, present any data or evidence of a 3rd (or 30+) reproductive organ(s).

Male or female of the species doesn't care if you have sex with male or female or sheep; it doesn't care if you wear a dress and makeup or shirt and tie; it doesn't care how long your hair is, if you are feminine or masculine, how hairy you are, how tall/short/fat/skinny; it doesn't care if you don't want to be something other than male or female of the species, if you collect shoes or Black & Decker tools; if you are not sure what your gender is...

Are women suffering from vaginal agenesis considered female?

 

[SystemShock]

Are women suffering from vaginal agenesis considered female?

Ah! Another rabbit hole.

 

[SystemShock]

I don't know what you mean by care,

That it doesn't matter.

but whether our gonads develop or don't has to do with more than just our chromosomal makeup.

Cool. And?

It's not just one factor in our biology, which is why there is variance.

Cool. What factor, other than dick or pursey, is there to define male or female of the species?

But whatever, you are free to believe what you want. As are we all.

Again, by all means, show evidence of any system of organs, other than reproductive organs that defines male or female of the species.

 

[coldseat]

Again, by all means, show evidence of any system of organs, other than reproductive organs that defines male or female of the species.

I already have. Nobody here is arguing that a person with a penis and a person with a vagina aren't biologically male and female, respectively. Nobody is arguing that there are other reproductive organs either. That seems to be your own strawman/construct to keep forcing discussion back into a binary box. The argument I'm making (and I think others as well) is that between those two poles, there are a lot of factors that determine whether we end up biologically male or female or maybe somewhere in between. It's not just about our reproductive organs. It's not as clear cut as you're determined to make it.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Ah! Another rabbit hole.

Ah! Another defelction. If a person's reproductive organs determine whether they are male or female, how do you classify someone born without reproductive organs?

 

[MT15]

What is happening here is conflation between male and man, female and woman, I think. I don’t think this is going to be a productive conversation.

 

[Optimus Prime]

What happened to the library thread?
============================
The trouble at the McLean Community Center started last summer, after the Northern Virginia cultural facility co-sponsored “Drag StoryBook Hour” for children during Pride Month.
Some in the affluent D.C. suburb of nearly 50,000 were outraged, accusing the center’s leaders of imposing their liberal ideology on the preschoolers who listened as drag queens in makeup and brightly patterned outfits read aloud books about gender fluidity.


Now, in an example of how nothing is safe from the nation’s raging culture wars, there is a power struggle underway at the 47-year-old Fairfax County community center whose board is usually occupied with such matters as whether to purchase a ping-pong table for the building or how plans are going for the annual McLean Day family festival, where the board’s elections take place.

Although the volunteer board with no taxing authority is hardly a steppingstone to higher office, this May’s election for three open seats — a contest that usually turns out about 300 voters — has attracted nine candidates.

Among them: Katharine Gorka, a former Trump administration official who — along with her husband, Sebastian Gorka, an ex-aide to President Donald Trump — has railed against social equity and inclusion policies such as the one the community center used as a guide in selecting the drag event……

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2022/04/18/mclean-community-center-culture-war/

 

[SystemShock]

Ah! Another defelction. If a person's reproductive organs determine whether they are male or female, how do you classify someone born without reproductive organs?

No such a thing. By default, nature is female.

 

[SystemShock]

I already have. Nobody here is arguing that a person with a penis and a person with a vagina aren't biologically male and female, respectively.

Progress.

Nobody is arguing that there are other reproductive organs either.

Further progress

That seems to be your own strawman/construct to keep forcing discussion back into a binary box.

Ironic comment.
Still, show me any evidence of something other than male or female of the species. I am always willing to learn.

The argument I'm making (and I think others as well) is that between those two poles, there are a lot of factors that determine whether we end up biologically male or female or maybe somewhere in between.

It doesn't matter how you get there. You still can only get to male or female of the species, birth defects/hermaphrodism notwithstanding.

It's not just about our reproductive organs. It's not as clear cut as you're determined to make it.

Male or female of the species IS about reproductive organs. You are just bent on injecting gender into it, which to me, has lost any practical meaning other than "what I feel/think I am" (maybe you prefer the softer "what I identify as"). But again, feel free to bring up any and all of the brain/organ differences that give way to all of the30+ recognized genders. I am always willing to learn

 

[cuddlemonkey]

No such a thing. By default, nature is female.

No such thing as what? Being born without reproductive organs?

 

[RobF]

What is happening here is conflation between male and man, female and woman, I think.

I'd say it's reductive. 'Female' can be used to refer to gender in humans, not exclusively in a biological "what are your reproductive organs" sense.

People can argue it shouldn't be, but then it's either a probably futile argument about terminology or it's a denial of the reality of gender (and as multiple people have pointed out, we all perceive gender: we're not typically checking people's reproductive organs before recognising them as male or female on a day-to-day basis).

I don’t think this is going to be a productive conversation.

Can't argue with that.