100 Marines to Baghdad (Iran conflict discussion)(Reopened & Merged) (1 Viewer)

[superchuck500]

We’re gonna try to stay on point in this one - .

After the Iranian admission of shooting down the Ukrainian 737, which was carrying 82 Iranian passengers, protests against the Supreme Leader have broken out.

The UK ambassador to Iran has been arrested for talking photos of the protests. President Trump has tweeted support for the protesters in English and Farsi.

 

[MT15]

You can drop the recruitment spill, I am not at all interested in the old pastime of pile on Joe.

I know. But it’s cute you think I‘m trying to “recruit” you. Projection much?

 

[Beach Friends]

I know. But it’s cute you think I‘m trying to “recruit” you. Projection much?

Lol, that doesn't make sense.

 

[wardorican]

Reports coming out that Pentagon officials believe PS752 (Ukraine) was accidentally shot down by an SA-15 (Tor 1) missile. There are images from the wreckage area that appear to show missile debris.

I believe there were Canadian and British passengers onboard.

There was a great bit by John Oliver on the daily show, where Iran captured some British Sailors, and while he's drinking tea, said, "Iran, we'll fork you up". I can't find it, but it was brilliant, and so appropriate for today.

 

[wardorican]

You can drop the recruitment spill, I am not at all interested in the old pastime of pile on Joe.

I think the point is that it lends more credibility to point out silly posts regardless of political stance.

Otherwise, it just comes off as being a partisan attack dog.

 

[Devildog]

If they're so freaking incompetent that a jr little guy sitting scared in his battery made the choice to kill 170 people then they can pay for their sins.

If one of our guys screws up like that he gets court-martialed and put in the brig, right?

Oh, except with Trump he gets an honorable discharge and parade after having been previously convicted for being an idiot.

I get what you're saying, and I somewhat agree, but it's not like we didn't do damn near the exact same thing to them.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...et-near-tehran-mirrors-1988-iran-air-tragedy/

https://slate.com/news-and-politics...its-own-destruction-of-a-passenger-plane.html

https://www.britannica.com/event/Iran-Air-flight-655

 

[dtc]

I get what you're saying, and I somewhat agree, but it's not like we didn't do damn near the exact same thing to them.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...et-near-tehran-mirrors-1988-iran-air-tragedy/

https://slate.com/news-and-politics...its-own-destruction-of-a-passenger-plane.html

https://www.britannica.com/event/Iran-Air-flight-655

I'm 51.

1988 was 32 years ago.

In 1988 I was drinking beer at Nassau Inn in Princeton for $1.75 and riding the train to NYC for $2.50.

What we did then was wrong or mistaken. What they did last week was wrong or mistaken.

I have no problem holding us or them accountable.

 

[Devildog]

I'm 51.

1988 was 32 years ago.

In 1988 I was drinking beer at Nassau Inn in Princeton for $1.75 and riding the train to NYC for $2.50.

What we did then was wrong or mistaken. What they did last week was wrong or mistaken.

I have no problem holding us or them accountable.

I figured as much. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[dtc]

I figured as much. Thanks for the clarification.

Were we and them not wrong for accidentally killing a plane load of civilians?

I may be naive to the confusion of warfare, but I don't think being scared, confused or inexperienced is an excuse for accidentally murdering 100 or more folks.

 

[Devildog]

Were we and them not wrong for accidentally killing a plane load of civilians?

I may be naive to the confusion of warfare, but I don't think being scared, confused or inexperienced is an excuse for accidentally murdering 100 or more folks.

I should've worded my post differently. I meant to say that was where I figured you were coming from and I agree. And no, I don't think it's an excuse.

 

[Joe Okc]

Wow... just wow..

I think I got a compliment from dtc... I think.

D tc. No. I am not saying Iran should get a free pass for shooting down the airliner.. but I feel it was an error by an individual without orders. No we should not "Glass them". Honestly right now I don't know what we should do.

But I feel since it was a ukrain8an airliner they should help with sanction on Iran or something. I think Trump is right. Other countries need to help put financial and government pressure on Iran until there is somek8nd of change to a more reasonable government.

Iran is not a US problem, Iran 8s a world problem.

 

[N.O.Bronco]

Were we and them not wrong for accidentally killing a plane load of civilians?

I may be naive to the confusion of warfare, but I don't think being scared, confused or inexperienced is an excuse for accidentally murdering 100 or more folks.

its also called collateral damage. A good reminder why setting into motion the tools of war is never a fully controllable act and the belief that it is will always bite you.

Iran was on high alert, America had made threats about any and all attacks to American assets being met with a counter. Commercial plane enters airspace, spooks people on high alert, they decide to be safe than sorry....Or any other scenario like that.

It’s not an excuse, it’s a logical explanation. Just like the predictable way American troops, or worse, unaccountable mercenaries from a culture of rapture, being asked to police a war zone, inevitably end up killing loads of civilians or damaging the hearts and minds campaign.

America set into motion the drumbeats of war, and like all conflict, the people who pay the biggest price are civilians. Iran pulled the trigger, and depending on ultimate context should likely be held directly responsible, but America forced the situation, and depending on the ultimate context, possibly bears their own responsibility as well.

 

[Saintamaniac]

I disagree.

Ask him. I guarantee Joe did not believe Trump was going to vacation twice as much. He did not want him to be out playing golf on the tax payer dime. He did not want him to lie. He actually wanted the wall - not to be lied to about it.

Joe is not a bad person nor is he an idiot. He's just convinced that the truth is different than the way many others see it. I don't understand it, but it is what it is.

I don't have to ask him. He readily states that trump is doing exactly what he voted for him to do. I don't think that makes him a bad person. I don't think being convince the truth is different than how many others see it makes him a bad person. I think a person who is convinced of a reality that is different than what many others see it probably needs help as that is the clinical definition of delusional.

 

[Archies Ghost]

If this intel about “painting” the aircraft from the ground, that’s quite a bit more complicated than a systems ID error and a jumpy operator.

"Painting" is very old slang for radar detection.

The SA-15 in a mobile surface to air missile battery with four missiles. It has a search radar, and a target illumination radar. It can react in 5 to 8 seconds. It has an automated mode that allows it to fire without human interface but it is unlikely it was in that mode, although if the Ukrainian airliner was the first departure from Tehran after the missile strike, automated mode is a possibility.

The SA-15 could "paint" the airliner with its radar and fire with no one outside the vehicle interacting.

 

[Archies Ghost]

This video shows, purportedly, the missile striking the airliner. The angle of the missile trail indicates the battery was fairly close to the flight path.

 

[superchuck500]

"Painting" is very old slang for radar detection.

The SA-15 in a mobile surface to air missile battery with four missiles. It has a search radar, and a target illumination radar. It can react in 5 to 8 seconds. It has an automated mode that allows it to fire without human interface but it is unlikely it was in that mode, although if the Ukrainian airliner was the first departure from Tehran after the missile strike, automated mode is a possibility.

The SA-15 could "paint" the airliner with its radar and fire with no one outside the vehicle interacting.

Thanks - I was under the impression painting was a process where a unit in the field (separate from the battery) electronically marked the target.

 

[superchuck500]

This video shows, purportedly, the missile striking the airliner. The angle of the missile trail indicates the battery was fairly close to the flight path.

That matches up with this map:

 

[efil4]

Thanks - I was under the impression painting was a process where a unit in the field (separate from the battery) electronically marked the target.

Yeah you were thinking along the lines of a ground unit "painting" a target for guided munitions drop.

All Sam's have internal radar and guidance. Really the operator is there if a system fails.

 

[superchuck500]

Yeah you were thinking along the lines of a ground unit "painting" a target for guided munitions drop.

All Sam's have internal radar and guidance. Really the operator is there if a system fails.

Yeah, I knew they have internal radar - I mean, it's 2020 (pretty sure that capability is decades old and only better now). I just thought "painting" meant an external, human-operated targeting system. It was a semantic misconception, not a technical one.