All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (14 Viewers)

DJ1BigTymer said:

I asked you because you said it "sounds like it had to be done". Moldy decided that he indeed needed to fire the Capt even though 24hrs ago he said they weren't looking to shoot the messenger.

Furthermore, he reasoning for firing him is laughable considering the tone of the actual memo; it was not hysterical, it wasn't littered with disinformation or filled with hyperbole. The memo stated the facts and a course of action needed to remedy the situation.

He said Crozier was not removed because of any evidence suggesting he leaked the memo to the press, but rather for allowing "the complexity of his challenge with the Covid breakout on the ship to overwhelm his ability to act professionally when acting professionally was what was needed the most at the time."

"I have no information nor am I trying to suggest that he leaked the information. It was published in the San Francisco Chronicle. It all came as a big surprise to all of us that it was in the paper, and that's the first time I had seen it," he added.

Interesting.

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You act like you are trying to figure out why the Captain was relieved, and yet you didn't quote the very portions where the reasons were specifically stated.

Heathen said:

It's not about "sides", but yes -- I'm aware. Both sides do it. The instance I just mentioned, which involves the VP, is where the focus lies now.

I repeat: Why would anyone support leaders who lie habitually? Does this not trouble one who values pursuing dignity in our rule of law?

Sure, every politician at some point stretches the truth. But some do it astronomically more than others because they know their constituents largely do not care, and it is important that we understand the difference.

We're not going to whisk away issue after issue with 'but your side'. BTW, you won't find a person on this board that is more critical of the Democratic party, if that tells you anything.

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I really wasn't asking you to reiterate that you believe GOP leaders are worse. I already knew that.

I well recall when it became the prime Democratic strategy to call all Republicans 'liars" and in particular to stick the "liar" label on any Republican president.

Anybody else remember when this became an ongoing strategy in recent history?

It was the 2000 election. In response to the Clinton impeachment, MoveOn.org began a campaign to turn the tables by labeling Republicans as liars.

It was a strategy that had proven effective for Republicans, when tied to Bill Clinton's infamous on-camera denial that he had sex with Monica Lewinsky.

With a little help from MoveOn, "Bush lied, people died" became a mantra. The pattern of counting misstatements, jokes, off-the-cuff remarks and jibes as "lies" became the rage. The Republican Predidential Lie Count became a featured, standing thread on Left-leaning Internet boards, PAC websites and discussion forums, which lasted though both of Bush's terms in office.

Unfortunately, the far, far Left kooks of 911 conspiracy theory co-opted the mantra to claim that Bush had planned 911 with the help of Dick Chaney to create a war for profit.

Strangely enough, things came full circle. It was Bill Clinton who called out a 911 conspiracy theory heckler, telling him, "You are making us look bad!"

The Presidential Lie Count suddenly went silent right after Obama's election, due more to turning a blind eye than anything else.

Memories are short. With Trump's election, the Republican Presidential Lie Count was revived as though it had never stopped.

Now, with the pandemic, the old "Bush lied, people died" mantra has been given new life, by none other than Nancy Pelosi, who is simply swapping Trump's name for Bush's.

Does everybody here have selective amnesia?

I actually saw somebody post something to the effect that Democratic presidents didn't lie.

I typed, "Wiilliam Jefferson Clinton?"

Then, I erased it. Then I typed it again. Then I erased it.

I'm not erasing it this time.

Before you call a president and his entire body of supporters "liars," consider the history of the use of tactic over the past 20 years. Consider a different tack.

Beach Friends said:

I really wasn't asking you to reiterate that you believe GOP leaders are worse. I already knew that.

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Call it what you may, you still haven't answered the question.

Heathen said:

Call it what you may, you still haven't answered the question.

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Not even sure I recognized that a question was in there somewhere. Once I saw that you missed the point I lost interest.

I am being serious, I was trying to get you to see another viewpoint, but it didn't work out.

Maybe another time.

The obsession with funneling everything through the free market during a crisis is going to be the death of capitalism as we know it.

Thanks Trump.

Republican supporters dug up the term "snowflake" as a jab at democrats who they claimed were easily offended. It's full irony now that republicans are offended the most when everyone else points out the verifiable lies that their president and they themselves have told. Just since the beginning of this pandemic, trump has told more lies than the last 5 presidents combined. Reagan lied. Bush I & II lied, Clinton lied and yes, Obama lied too.

However, those presidents didn't have the throngs of people willing to sacrifice their reputation to participate in outright provable lies. There are even posters on this very site who when confronted with obvious lies refuse to admit it. Not only will they lie, they get upset when people point out the lies that they tell...and yes, refusing to answer simple yes or no question because you realize your answer will be in contradiction to something or some idea you previously espoused is tantamount to lying. It's irony lost on trump supporters that the people so quick to refer to someone as a "snowflake" are in fact some of the biggest snowflakes around.

Trump has lied since his first day in office and continues to do so almost daily. Almost every lie that he has told is verifiable through video or tweet. The only way to support or defend a known and proven liar is to lie along with him. Democrats do not support trump. Most Republicans support trump. Therefore, most republicans who continue to support trump are, by their very nature, liars. Trump's lies have resulted in the death of thousands of people and will result in the death of 10's to 100's of thousands of Americans.

Beach Friends said:

Not even sure I recognized that a question was in there somewhere. Once I saw that you missed the point I lost interest.

I am being serious, I was trying to get you to see another viewpoint, but it didn't work out.

Maybe another time.

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Do you not think that I realized a long time ago that both sides view each other's respective leaders poorly?

Come on..I don't believe you actually think that I or anyone else can't see from another viewpoint. Not one bit.

You stated something obvious and attempted to say that I missed it. That's incorrect, we both know.

My original statement had to do specifically with the Vice President, a man who ironically touts his "faith", lying to the American people once again (I've lost count at this point) about Trump not having "belittled the threat of the Coronavirus".

That's a lie. We're grown up and recognize one when we see it. Let's not be dishonest.

Now, what I originally asked broadly was, roughly, 'How can people continue to support leaders who not only lie behind close doors, but lie at least every week to the people they serve -- in front of the nation?'

It doesn't even have to be all about policy. It can be in everyday interaction. I can GUARANTEE you if it were a Democrat or Independent or whomever President or any leader that did this to such an extent, i'd be just as adamant. What happened to the party that touts its 'family values' day after day defending liars and sex offenders? And before the whataboutism hits -- yes, Democrats do it too.

Can we address Pence's statements now, or have you 'lost interest'?

Heathen said:

Do you not think that I realized a long time ago that both sides view each other's respective leaders poorly?

Come on..I don't believe you actually think that I or anyone else can't see from another viewpoint. Not one bit.

You stated something obvious and attempted to say that I missed it. That's incorrect, we both know.

My original statement had to do specifically with the Vice President, a man who ironically touts his "faith", lying to the American people once again (I've lost count at this point) about Trump not having "belittled the threat of the Coronavirus".

That's a lie. We're grown up and recognize one when we see it. Let's not be dishonest.

Now, what I originally asked broadly was, roughly, 'How can people continue to support leaders who not only lie behind close doors, but lie at least every week to the people they serve -- in front of the nation?'

It doesn't even have to be all about policy. It can be in everyday interaction. I can GUARANTEE you if it were a Democrat or Independent or whomever President or any leader that did this to such an extent, i'd be just as adamant. What happened to the party that touts its 'family values' day after day defending liars and sex offenders? And before the whataboutism hits -- yes, Democrats do it too.

Can we address Pence's statements now, or have you 'lost interest'?

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Oh, I don't care what Pence said. I wasn't responding to that. I was responding to your inquiry as to how people could support horrible GOP politicians who lie. I thought it was kind of a pointless rant on your part because the alternative is horrible Democratic politicians who, as it turns out, also lie.

Beach Friends said:

Oh, I don't care what Pence said. I wasn't responding to that. I was responding to your inquiry as to how people could support horrible GOP politicians who lie. I thought it was kind of a pointless rant on your part because the alternative is horrible Democratic politicians who, as it turns out, also lie.

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As I said, calling Republicans liars is part of a strategy that was rolled out in 2000 by the MoveOn PAC. Democrats have been following that for so long, they don't even realize they've been indoctrinated to do so. It's treated as an accepted fact, not a paid political ploy that they've been trained to disseminate.

If you disagree and try to point out that calling people liars is part of a political strategy that was instituted by a Political Action Committee, people get very upset.

Nobody likes to admit they've been duped and indoctrinated by a PAC.

Beach Friends said:

Oh, I don't care what Pence said.

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That's part of the problem for sure, isn't it?

I wasn't responding to that. I was responding to your inquiry as to how people could support horrible GOP politicians who lie. I thought it was kind of a pointless rant on your part because the alternative is horrible Democratic politicians who, as it turns out, also lie.

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Ah..Whataboutism.

I've stated several times that I hold leaders in the Democratic party (or any party) just as accountable.

Therefore, no, my "rant" is not pointless. My point was and still is that when lies occur, especially egregious ones that a child could point out, we must all, regardless of political affiliation, condemn it. Clearly that's more difficult for some.

As for what I said..It's simply that you decided to focus on where you thought I was saying "Party A is doing this" but conveniently never addressed where I said "Both Party A and B do this".

Are you going to address it, or keep conveniently ignoring it?

I can play this game all day.

Dadsdream said:

As I said, calling Republicans liars is part of a strategy that was rolled out in 2000 by the MoveOn PAC. Democrats have been following that for so long, they don't even realize they've been indoctrinated to do so. It's treated as an accepted fact, not a paid political ploy that they've been trained to disseminate.

If you disagree and try to point out that calling people liars is part of a political strategy that was instituted by a Political Action Committee, people get very upset.

Nobody likes to admit they've been duped and indoctrinated by a PAC.

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Simple test..




My statement: Both Republicans and Democrats lie to the American public. In this particular event, we have Mike Pence clearly lying about Donald Trump's response to the Coronavirus. Do you agree that it was a lie?

Republicans: (fill in blank)

samiam5211 said:

The obsession with funneling everything through the free market during a crisis is going to be the death of capitalism as we know it.

Thanks Trump.

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Yep this is gonna be crazy. I really don't know how on earth we could not just agree that medicine medical supplies, and other things need to be purchased by the government to stop price gouging.

Oh that is right that is the whole free market defense of healthcare in general.

The sad thing is the healthcare industry has failed to raise prices anywhere close to the rate of inflation was the problem before the pandemic. The cost to Americans is staggering when you think what the rest of the world pays. That is the major problem with the industry that needs to be addressed.

This should open the eyes of enough voters to make real change I would hope.

2004:
"Bush Lied, People Died!"
"9-11 Was an Inside Job!"
"Chimpy!"

2020:
"Trump Lied, Died!" (tm Nancy Pelosi)
"COVID-19 Was an Inside Job!"
"Orange Man!"

Dadsdream said:

As I said, calling Republicans liars is part of a strategy that was rolled out in 2000 by the MoveOn PAC. Democrats have been following that for so long, they don't even realize they've been indoctrinated to do so. It's treated as an accepted fact, not a paid political ploy that they've been trained to disseminate.

If you disagree and try to point out that calling people liars is part of a political strategy that was instituted by a Political Action Committee, people get very upset.

Nobody likes to admit they've been duped and indoctrinated by a PAC.

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I don't need anyone to tell me Trump is full of shirt. He lies at an astronomical rate. You want to tell us we are indoctrined to think all GOP politicians are liars, fine. That doesn't change the fact that Trump is a pathological liar. Can you show me I am wrong? Don't give me that garbage that all politicians lie, because that doesn't make up the excuse of what is a normal level of misdirection versus what we have now.

I'm watching Governor Cuomo be more of a national leader than the current president and he makes a very solid point. There is nothing complicated about N95 masks, face guards and protective gowns. Why can't an apparel company in the US be quickly adjusted to make these items for use here in the US? That's the thing that nurses and doctors are needing the most and at danger of not having.

If trump had been president during WWII we would all be speaking German or Japanese right now. The clown in chief is more interested in "getting back" at the people who criticize him than he is at actually coming up with a plan to help people and help fight this pandemic.

Consequently, as I said previously, Republicans wouldn't be called liars if they didn't have to lie to support a proven liar. By doing so, they turn an opinion into a fact. Calling republicans who continue to support a proven liar and who continue the lies he puts out is not a strategy. It's simply calling balls balls and strikes strikes.

The good news is that there is a very simply solution to this. Republicans should stop participating in the lies that trump tells. They should stand up with strong voices and ask their president to stop lying to the american people. However, they won't do that. They'll just continue to complain about being called liars as they continue to lie and support a habitual liar.

The saying goes "A picture is worth a thousand words." This picture illustrates that like a War and Peace novel. It illustrates my point better than anything I could ever write.

Heathen said:

Simple test..




My statement: Both Republicans and Democrats lie to the American public. In this particular event, we have Mike Pence clearly lying about Donald Trump's response to the Coronavirus. Do you agree that it was a lie?

Republicans: (fill in blank)

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No.

And so it's a simple step to go from calling Trump a liar to calling everybody that voted for him or may vote for him liars.
Such an easy thing that it's being done right here, right now, with people denying that they're doing it.
Amazing.