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    MT15 said:
    Yep, it has been steadily gaining, then took a jump a couple weeks ago. I’m reading it’s going to be an AI boom, but I don’t know anything about it.
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    Crazy.. felt like last time I looked at it, which didn't seem like that long ago, it was like 32,000 or something.

    Just looked.. yeah it was 32,000 something back in October which is like 6 months back now - started a new job in December, been a blur since then I guess.
     
    Farb said:
    and most people have 2 or 3 of them to make ends meet in this wonderful economy
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    And almost all of them had 2 to 3 jobs when Trump, Obama and W Bush were presidents. And almost all of their parents had 2 to 3 jobs when Clinton, H W Bush and 2nd term Reagan was president.

    It's a problem, but it's not an exclusively Biden problem. In fact, there's been more real wage growth in lower wages while Biden was president than anytime going all the way back to Reagan.

    It's nowhere near enough and it's still a huge problem. The improvement is not all because of Biden's policies, but it is partially because of Biden's policies.
     
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    LA - L.A. said:
    And almost all of them had 2 to 3 jobs when Trump, Obama and W Bush were presidents. And almost all of their parents had 2 to 3 jobs when Clinton, H W Bush and 2nd term Reagan was president.

    It's a problem, but it's not an exclusively Biden problem. In fact, there's been more real wage growth in lower wages while Biden was president than anytime going all the way back to Reagan.

    It's nowhere near enough and it's still a huge problem. The improvement is not all because of Biden's policies, but it is partially because of Biden's policies.
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    There's been wage growth, but it's been a mirage. Inflation is still outpacing wage growth. So, the wage growth isn't really "real". Purchasing power has been dropping for a long time.
     
    DaveXA said:
    There's been wage growth, but it's been a mirage. Inflation is still outpacing wage growth. So, the wage growth isn't really "real". Purchasing power has been dropping for a long time.
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    Inflation isn't outpacing wage growth. It started to change in the middle of last year. It may not have caught up to everybody yet, but the wage growth is real.

    1711031518256.png


     
    coldseat said:
    Inflation isn't outpacing wage growth. It started to change in the middle of last year. It may not have caught up to everybody yet, but the wage growth is real.

    1711031518256.png


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    Not really. The bulk of wage growth is happening in the higher earners range. The lower earners aren't keeping pace, and the wealth gap continues to grow as it has been all along. This is why only some feel like they're doing OK while many others their wages have been pretty stagnant and they're not feeling the bump.

    I'm not blaming anyone. It just is what it is.
     
    DaveXA said:
    Not really. The bulk of wage growth is happening in the higher earners range. The lower earners aren't keeping pace, and the wealth gap continues to grow as it has been all along. This is why only some feel like they're doing OK while many others their wages have been pretty stagnant and they're not feeling the bump.

    I'm not blaming anyone. It just is what it is.
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    www.cnbc.com

    Pay for low-wage workers grew 'tremendously fast' in the last 3 years—but experts don't think it'll last

    Workers in the 10th percentile, that is those making less than 90% of workers, saw a historic 9% increase in real wages (adjusted for inflation).
    www.cnbc.com www.cnbc.com
    www.politico.com

    Historic gains: Low-income workers scored in the Covid economy

    A POLITICO analysis shows that pandemic-era policies reversed the trend toward a widening income gap. The move away from them threatens those gains. Which way will Biden turn?
    www.politico.com www.politico.com
    www.cbsnews.com

    Wages surged for lowest-paid Americans after the pandemic

    Even after inflation, wages for the worst-paid U.S. workers jumped 9% since 2019, new analysis finds.
    www.cbsnews.com www.cbsnews.com
     
    DaveXA said:
    Not really. The bulk of wage growth is happening in the higher earners range. The lower earners aren't keeping pace, and the wealth gap continues to grow as it has been all along. This is why only some feel like they're doing OK while many others their wages have been pretty stagnant and they're not feeling the bump.

    I'm not blaming anyone. It just is what it is.
    Click to expand...

    I didn't think you were blaming anybody, it's just that's the exact opposite of what I've been reading everywhere. @LA - L.A. posted a few examples, but all of the articles I've been reading have said that lower wager workers have been making bigger gains in terms of real wages.

    The wealth gap does continue to widen, but I assume that has more to do with the ridiculous stock market gains than anything else. As a side note, that's why I believe that workers need to have real stakes in the stock holdings for the companies they work for, so that they can benefit more from these market gains.
     
    LA - L.A. said:
    www.cnbc.com

    Pay for low-wage workers grew 'tremendously fast' in the last 3 years—but experts don't think it'll last

    Workers in the 10th percentile, that is those making less than 90% of workers, saw a historic 9% increase in real wages (adjusted for inflation).
    www.cnbc.com www.cnbc.com
    www.politico.com

    Historic gains: Low-income workers scored in the Covid economy

    A POLITICO analysis shows that pandemic-era policies reversed the trend toward a widening income gap. The move away from them threatens those gains. Which way will Biden turn?
    www.politico.com www.politico.com
    www.cbsnews.com

    Wages surged for lowest-paid Americans after the pandemic

    Even after inflation, wages for the worst-paid U.S. workers jumped 9% since 2019, new analysis finds.
    www.cbsnews.com www.cbsnews.com
    Click to expand...
    Sure, that's because of the minimum wage increases in several areas. You won't see that type of increase in rural or regions where the minimum wage hasn't been changed. The national minimum wage is still $7.25/hour which is absolutely ridiculous.
     
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    coldseat said:
    I didn't think you were blaming anybody, it's just that's the exact opposite of what I've been reading everywhere. @LA - L.A. posted a few examples, but all of the articles I've been reading have said that lower wager workers have been making bigger gains in terms of real wages.

    The wealth gap does continue to widen, but I assume that has more to do with the ridiculous stock market gains than anything else.
    Click to expand...
    My wife worked in retail for a few years 2021-2023 and she never saw a wage increase the entire time. The minimum wage here was bumped up to $15/hour, but very few employees are seeing any sort of increase beyond that unless they're managers. It's anecdotal for sure, but it's certainly not unique to her.

    I've seen increases in my own salary due to cost of living bumps, but that hasn't come close to catching up with inflation. It's surely improving, but not really enough to stave off the massive debt loads people are carrying. National household credit card debt is as high as it's ever been and that really hasn't changed, no doubt in part due to increased interest they're paying on that debt. It's been getting harder to keep up.

    Wage growth is happening, but it's not enough to offset inflation and the large increase in the cost to service debt which isn't accounted for in inflation. You can make make numbers look good, but when it comes to practical every day living, people aren't feeling the bump up.
     
    Due to complexity most charts and comments regarding inflation and wage growth are less than adequate. This is not due to the fault of anyone in particular but to the problem of aggregating data across geographies, occupations, age groups, items tagged for tracking such as food prices etc.

    Housing costs either single family, multi-family or rental vary significantly by location. Healthcare costs due vary but have been climbing “ahead of inflation” for going on decades. Food prices vary geographically and will likely sky-rocket if TFG gets elected and follows through on his deportation spoutings. Transportation costs keep rising. There are a host of inputs including sociological and psychological reasons that may or may not be taken into account.

    For me, one of the reasons for this entire situation revolves around a theomythology of capitalism being a good, if not, best distributor of resources. The entire concept of capitalism is based upon continued infinite growth. Interest, profit are claims on that future growth. Wealth seeks “returns”, in essence, sure bets, and moves money around in attempts to capture these future claims. The problem is exacerbated by the lack of any system that does not fall into the same trap. Sure, Minsky put forth the concept of the government being the employers of last resort but that is just a band-aid. Moving forward in time class structures will become further calcified because eliminating the wealth gap is virtually impossible. Despite what some say, imo, capitalism is a zero-sum game. The zero-sums occur spreads over very large groups of people but rest assured they are there.
     
    DaveXA said:
    Sure, that's because of the minimum wage increases in several areas. You won't see that type of increase in rural or regions where the minimum wage hasn't been changed. The national minimum wage is still $7.25/hour which is absolutely ridiculous.
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    You said the wage growth for lower wages wasn't real. They are real. Not nearly enough growth, not everyone got it, the wealth gap still widens, but the wage growth among lower waged earners is real and it's a step in the right direction. More needs to be done.

    A lot of it has to do with the resurgence of unions, something Biden has been supportive of.
     
    DaveXA said:
    Wage growth is happening, but it's not enough to offset inflation...
    Click to expand...
    All the articles I posted were talking about real wage growth after adjusting for inflation.

    DaveXA said:
    ...when it comes to practical every day living, people aren't feeling the bump up.
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    Some people are feeling the bump up and some people aren't feeling it. A common mistake people make is thinking that everyone is experiencing the same things in life that they are and that they are experiencing it in the same way.
     
    LA - L.A. said:
    You said the wage growth for lower wages wasn't real. They are real. Not nearly enough growth, not everyone got it, the wealth gap still widens, but the wage growth among lower waged earners is real and it's a step in the right direction. More needs to be done.

    A lot of it has to do with the resurgence of unions, something Biden has been supportive of.
    Click to expand...
    Pure growth, it's real, but growth relative to inflation and increased costs to carry debt, not so much. But yes, as you said, it's not enough and more needs to be done. My concern is the middle class is shrinking and the wealth gap is getting bigger. Meaning ultimately fewer people are truly getting ahead. I don't know how we fix that unless we see significant interest rate drops and reduced cost to service debt.
     
    LA - L.A. said:
    All the articles I posted were talking about real wage growth after adjusting for inflation.
    Click to expand...
    Yes, but they aren't accounting for significant increases in costs to service their growing debt loads.
    LA - L.A. said:
    Some people are feeling the bump up and some people aren't feeling it. A common mistake people make is thinking that everyone is experiencing the same things in life that they are and that they are experiencing it in the same way.
    Click to expand...
    Sure, I made that point clear that not everyone is experiencing the same things, and certainly not always in the same way. But I still contend that more people aren't feeling like they're making progress than those who are. And when you're looking at the ballooning consumer debt, it would explain why more are feeling the pressure than not.
     
    DaveXA said:
    Not really. The bulk of wage growth is happening in the higher earners range. The lower earners aren't keeping pace, and the wealth gap continues to grow as it has been all along. This is why only some feel like they're doing OK while many others their wages have been pretty stagnant and they're not feeling the bump.

    I'm not blaming anyone. It just is what it is.
    Click to expand...

    Anyone who works in IT can tell you there was a huge boon during Covid. You saw massive hiring sprees, and compensation packages.
     
    bird said:
    Due to complexity most charts and comments regarding inflation and wage growth are less than adequate. This is not due to the fault of anyone in particular but to the problem of aggregating data across geographies, occupations, age groups, items tagged for tracking such as food prices etc.

    Housing costs either single family, multi-family or rental vary significantly by location. Healthcare costs due vary but have been climbing “ahead of inflation” for going on decades. Food prices vary geographically and will likely sky-rocket if TFG gets elected and follows through on his deportation spoutings. Transportation costs keep rising. There are a host of inputs including sociological and psychological reasons that may or may not be taken into account.

    For me, one of the reasons for this entire situation revolves around a theomythology of capitalism being a good, if not, best distributor of resources. The entire concept of capitalism is based upon continued infinite growth. Interest, profit are claims on that future growth. Wealth seeks “returns”, in essence, sure bets, and moves money around in attempts to capture these future claims. The problem is exacerbated by the lack of any system that does not fall into the same trap. Sure, Minsky put forth the concept of the government being the employers of last resort but that is just a band-aid. Moving forward in time class structures will become further calcified because eliminating the wealth gap is virtually impossible. Despite what some say, imo, capitalism is a zero-sum game. The zero-sums occur spreads over very large groups of people but rest assured they are there.
    Click to expand...
    Constant growth is impossible. It leads to a catastrophic collapse.

    I define capitalism as allowing any individual or group of people to exploit any tangible item, intangible idea, information and/or human beings for personal benefit and to the detriment of others.

    I see the fundamental and inherent flaw of capitalism as being that it's inherently competitive. Human beings thrive more, both collectively and individually, the more they cooperate and the less they compete. Capitalism disrupts cooperation which leads to a higher level of dysfunction and disease for the collective and the individual.

    Slavery is a result of capitalism.

    The planet has been polluted to the point that every human has synthetic toxins in their blood is a result of capitalism.

    Extreme climate change that threatens the continuation of civilization, not the human species, is a result of capitalism.

    Every fascist regime in history has been a result of capitalism.

    Free markets only exist in theory, corruption always dominates capitalistic markets in practice.

    Capitalism is the emperor's new clothes repeatedly sold to us by snake oil peddlers hiding behind a curtain while pulling levers to use smoke and mirrors to make themselves and capitalism appear to be greater than either of them actually are.
     
    Let us not forget that the Great Compression was fueled by the highest union membership, a huge amount of jobs that were labor intensive especially in manufacturing and a vey small top end of CEO pay. In addition, the world withe exception of the US lay in rubble after WW2. The monies spent to rebuild Europe and Japan greatly helped American companies as well.

    Nothing occurs in a vacuum.

    Expecting growth along the lines of what the PRC allegedly experienced due to Dengism is a pipe dream. It simply isn’t going to happen. Technology has wiped out much of manufacturing due to automation. The IT/technology boom does not provide jobs on the same scale that we saw with heavy manufacturing.

    There are so many things in play it is impossible to catalogue and deduce their impact.
     

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