Israel vs Hamas (5 Viewers)

On the security file, the envisioned plan includes Israel closing off Gaza’s southern border with Egypt, giving Israel complete control of entry and exit from the enclave. At present, Egypt controls access to and from Gaza’s southern border via the Rafah crossing

The plan asserts, as Netanyahu has said before, that “Israel will have security control over the entire area west of Jordan,” which includes all of the West Bank and Israel, as well as Gaza

Israel will be responsible for “realizing and overseeing” the demilitarization of the Strip, the plan says, except for what is required to maintain public order

On the civil level, Netanyahu details an overhaul of Gaza’s civil administration and education systems, including an apparent cut-off of funding from Qatar to Gaza – which a previous Netanyahu government approved and facilitated.

The plan repeats that Israel will work to shut down UNRWA, the main United Nations agency supporting Palestinian refugees, and work to replace it “with responsible international aid agencies.”

Finally, the plan reiterates Israel’s insistence that it will not be forced by the international community to recognize a Palestinian state

zztop said:

Netanyahu unveils plan for Gaza’s future post-Hamas | CNN

Israel’s Netanyahu unveiled a plan for the Gaza’s future post-Hamas, which includes the “complete demilitarization” of the enclave, closing off the territory’s southern border with Egypt, as well as the overhaul of Gaza’s civil administration and education systems.

www.cnn.com

On the security file, the envisioned plan includes Israel closing off Gaza’s southern border with Egypt, giving Israel complete control of entry and exit from the enclave. At present, Egypt controls access to and from Gaza’s southern border via the Rafah crossing

The plan asserts, as Netanyahu has said before, that “Israel will have security control over the entire area west of Jordan,” which includes all of the West Bank and Israel, as well as Gaza

Israel will be responsible for “realizing and overseeing” the demilitarization of the Strip, the plan says, except for what is required to maintain public order

On the civil level, Netanyahu details an overhaul of Gaza’s civil administration and education systems, including an apparent cut-off of funding from Qatar to Gaza – which a previous Netanyahu government approved and facilitated.

The plan repeats that Israel will work to shut down UNRWA, the main United Nations agency supporting Palestinian refugees, and work to replace it “with responsible international aid agencies.”

Finally, the plan reiterates Israel’s insistence that it will not be forced by the international community to recognize a Palestinian state

Click to expand...

This is pretty sobering...but again, nothing surprising. These bits really stood out to me...

Israel, who have already killed tens of thousands of Palestinians and destroyed most of Gaza, will now:
take total "security control" over all of Gaza - aka an open air prison, now with military guards
take over all of Gaza's civil and education systems
will cut off aid from other countries
will off aid from the United Nations completely, and claim to replace with "Israel approved" aid
Never recognize or establish Palestine as an independent state


This is the second Nakba. 76 years later.

Heathen said:

This is pretty sobering...but again, nothing surprising. These bits really stood out to me...

Israel, who have already killed tens of thousands of Palestinians and destroyed most of Gaza, will now:
take total "security control" over all of Gaza - aka an open air prison, now with military guards
take over all of Gaza's civil and education systems
will cut off aid from other countries
will off aid from the United Nations completely, and claim to replace with "Israel approved" aid
Never recognize or establish Palestine as an independent state


This is the second Nakba. 76 years later.

Click to expand...

I think it is time to cutoff aid to Israel until they agree to establish a Palestinian state.

meanwhile

Lapaz said:

I think it is time to cutoff aid to Israel until they agree to establish a Palestinian state.

Click to expand...

Where?

If Israel is attacked by a terrorist group the way Hamas attacked then from a territory Israel controls, what do you think it'd happen if that territory becomes a free State? There are very wealthy Arab nations in the ME that could easily absorb the population of Gaza, but they don't do it. Egypt doesn't let them in. Why is that? Because they want the conflict with none of the blood.

And really, what does anyone expect from a nation whose people not so long ago were being methodically exterminated, they way they were being methodically exterminated, when they get attacked the way they did? Not only are they going to retaliate, they are going to make sure everyone knows what happens if they are attacked again. They cannot afford to sit there and talk about it.

SystemShock said:

Where?

If Israel is attacked by a terrorist group the way Hamas attacked then from a territory Israel controls, what do you think it'd happen if that territory becomes a free State? There are very wealthy Arab nations in the ME that could easily absorb the population of Gaza, but they don't do it. Egypt doesn't let them in. Why is that? Because they want the conflict with none of the blood.

And really, what does anyone expect from a nation whose people not so long ago were being methodically exterminated, they way they were being methodically exterminated, when they get attacked the way they did? Not only are they going to retaliate, they are going to make sure everyone knows what happens if they are attacked again. They cannot afford to sit there and talk about it.

Click to expand...

The fundamental issue is that Israel is a miltary occupying power and has been for 80 years now. There aren't any people who would accept military occupation peacefully without a promise of being able to fully participate in their own governance.

It gets complicated b/c what is a viable Palestinian state at this point? Is it a return to 1967 borders? That seems like a non-starter from Israel's standpoint. Current terriotry minus the settlers being forced out of the West Bank? Is an independent Palestinian state viable?

If the Palestinians had something they valued that could be taken away, the possibility of peace increases. If they had a state and launched an attack, their government can be overthrown by the stronger Israeli military.

Basically, I'd consider cutting off aid to both of them until they forge peace between themselves and then let them figure it out. There should be a promise of enough aid to be worthwhile as an incentive -- but basically, they need to figure it out.

Oh wow...

In a video of the incident, obtained and reviewed by CNN, the man identifies himself as Aaron Bushnell and says, “I will no longer be complicit in genocide” before going on to say that what he’s about to do is minimal compared with the suffering of Palestinians.

He then sets the recording device on the ground before pouring an unknown liquid over himself and igniting it while yelling “Free Palestine” repeatedly. He eventually collapses as police officers rush to douse the flames with fire extinguishers.

Rose Riley, a spokesperson for the US Air Force, told CNN, “I can confirm an active duty Airman was involved in today’s incident.”

Click to expand...

UncleTrvlingJim said:

The fundamental issue is that Israel is a miltary occupying power and has been for 80 years now. There aren't any people who would accept military occupation peacefully without a promise of being able to fully participate in their own governance.

It gets complicated b/c what is a viable Palestinian state at this point? Is it a return to 1967 borders? That seems like a non-starter from Israel's standpoint. Current terriotry minus the settlers being forced out of the West Bank? Is an independent Palestinian state viable?

If the Palestinians had something they valued that could be taken away, the possibility of peace increases. If they had a state and launched an attack, their government can be overthrown by the stronger Israeli military.

Basically, I'd consider cutting off aid to both of them until they forge peace between themselves and then let them figure it out. There should be a promise of enough aid to be worthwhile as an incentive -- but basically, they need to figure it out.

Click to expand...

There is no viable Palestinian State in Gaza or the West Bank. At this point, the best solution is for Palestinians to migrate to other countries. There's a number of countries in the ME that have plenty of resources to easily absorb them. But nobody wants them and they don't wan to leave, so...

IMO, I don't think removing aid to Israel will deter them or convince them to settle with the Palestinians.

SystemShock said:

There is no viable Palestinian State in Gaza or the West Bank. At this point, the best solution is for Palestinians to migrate to other countries. There's a number of countries in the ME that have plenty of resources to easily absorb them. But nobody wants them and they don't wan to leave, so...

IMO, I don't think removing aid to Israel will deter them or convince them to settle with the Palestinians.

Click to expand...

Full on Trail of Tears time, eh?

Taurus said:

Full on Trail of Tears time, eh?

Click to expand...

No one here seems to mind the caravans coming from C.A., and C.A. isn't the walled-in, occupied, active war zone Gaza is.

The Israelis are not letting go of Gaza or the West Bank; there's not going to be a Palestinian State in either zone any time soon, if ever. And the Israelis will make as sure as possible that they will not be attacked like they were attacked from Gaza again.

One thing to note, people seem to disassociate Hamas with Palestinians. Hamas are Palestinians.

SystemShock said:

No one here seems to mind the caravans coming from C.A., and C.A. isn't the walled-in, occupied, active war zone Gaza is.

The Israelis are not letting go of Gaza or the West Bank; there's not going to be a Palestinian State in either zone any time soon, if ever. And the Israelis will make as sure as possible that they will not be attacked like they were attacked from Gaza again.

One thing to note, people seem to disassociate Hamas with Palestinians. Hamas are Palestinians.

Click to expand...

The reason we dissociate Hamas from regular Palestinians is if all or even a majority of Palestinians were Hamas, Israel would be getting its arse handed to it right now.

GrandAdmiral said:

Oh wow...

US airman dies after setting himself on fire outside Israeli Embassy in Washington | CNN Politics

An active-duty member of the US Air Force who set himself on fire outside the Israeli Embassy in Washington, DC, on Sunday, has died, authorities said.

www.cnn.com

Click to expand...

As a follow up, the member died from his injuries. Damn shame.

Taurus said:

The reason we dissociate Hamas from regular Palestinians is if all or even a majority of Palestinians were Hamas, Israel would be getting its arse handed to it right now.

Click to expand...

I seriously doubt that.

GrandAdmiral said:

Oh wow...

US airman dies after setting himself on fire outside Israeli Embassy in Washington | CNN Politics

An active-duty member of the US Air Force who set himself on fire outside the Israeli Embassy in Washington, DC, on Sunday, has died, authorities said.

www.cnn.com

Click to expand...

Mob/group/tribal mentality has always been a thing, but it really has taken a real serious, extremist turn this century. All of the sudden, Palestine is a catalyst for all sorts of protests and condemnation. It is the outrage do jour, and it will be forgotten once the next chic outrage comes along... but this is ridiculous.

SystemShock said:

It is the outrage do jour, and it will be forgotten once the next chic outrage comes along...

Click to expand...

There has always been a contingent of anti-Israel/pro-Palestine groups around. The war has just given them a larger platform.

SystemShock said:

I seriously doubt that.

Click to expand...

How many tens (hundreds?) of thousands refugees are trying to find somewhere safe in Palestine?
If they were fighting instead, the IDF would be hoeing a much more difficult row.