Israel vs Hamas (1 Viewer)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[Heathen]

All I hear you do is rail against Biden for being so bad and not vote worthy.

Genocide is a legitimate human rights issue . I'm sorry if that being tied to Biden annoys you or you're tired of hearing about it.

I hope folks never hear the end of it, personally.

As long as I'm alive, I'm gonna continue to rant and rave like a 'extremist' as one poster called me, against genocide being accepted amongst US policy.

That's just where I'm at. I'm not asking you or anyone here to agree or like it.

Complaining solves nothing. Instead of constantly giving reasons not to vote for Biden, how about giving reasons to vote for another specific candidate.

You're just stating something. Do you actually know it to be true? Let's look at what you said:

Will 'complaining' as you say of our country aiding in the genocide of other people really 'solve nothing'?

What if our relationship with a country that seems to think it can slaughter people they call 'roaches' and 'animals' changes because the party who thought they could still get enough votes after engaging in this practice couldn't?

There are examples all over history of platforms and parties changing due to shifting beliefs and ideas.

I mean, the sheer number of people who seem to not be able to envision change past this election or who are unwilling to see anything past "anything other than a vote for my candidate is a vote for the end of this country" is staggering. It's like they're purposefully trying to be shortsighted.

I don't claim to know all of the situations that exist in terms of what effects our votes have.

But I can tell you they are most definitely more nuanced than you're stating here.

 

[Heathen]

Well Biden have insisted again and again that the US want a 2 state solution. The palestinian has been cheated out of their own state multiple times and not always by the west.

Under separate agreements between Israel and the neighboring states of Egypt, Lebanon, Transjordan, and Syria, these bordering nations agreed to formal armistice lines. Israel gained some territory formerly granted to Palestinian Arabs under the United Nations resolution in 1947. Egypt and Jordan retained control over the Gaza Strip and the West Bank respectively. These armistice lines held until 1967. The United States did not become directly involved with the armistice negotiations,

Bidens plan of a 2 state solution is actually an improvement over Trumps support of Israel making Jerusalem their capitol which was against every UN agreement on the matter, which stated that Jerusalem should be under shared authority with both palestinians and Israeli sharing the power over that city.

So Biden has been railing for this 2 state solution "again and again" but effectively completely dissolved a possibility of that with letting Israel level Gaza and force migration of millions of people (soon to be out of Gaza completely).

I'm interested in what a candidate does, not what they say. If Biden was so serious about this solution, he could have pushed for rescinding aid to Israel.

Instead? He bypassed Congress to give Israel more. MUCH more. During a time when Israel was relentlessly killing civilians.

What is this gap between what Biden apparently 'wants' and what he actually does? It seems to be quite an oddity...

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

So Biden has been railing for this 2 state solution "again and again" but effectively completely dissolved a possibility of that with letting Israel level Gaza and force migration of millions of people (soon to be out of Gaza completely).

I'm interested in what a candidate does, not what they say. If Biden was so serious about this solution, he could have pushed for rescinding aid to Israel.

Instead? He bypassed Congress to give Israel more. MUCH more. During a time when Israel was relentlessly killing civilians.

What is this gap between what Biden apparently 'wants' and what he actually does? It seems to be quite an oddity...

Well, it probably doesn't make much sense to invade a neighbor and rape, murder, and kidnape the elderly, children, and other civilians and then be surprised when that invaded country is supported by an allie.

 

[Dragon]

What do you think that Trump would have done? He let Irael move their capitol to Jerusalem against all international treaties

Fact is that Biden is doing a lot of diplomatic work behind the scenes but it is also a fact that both Bibi and Hamas has absolutely no interests in solving this and Hamas are still holding hostages. Biden can't force Bibi to do anything as long as Hamas has hostages, and Hamas does NOT want peace. Neither do Bibi. Bibi knows that he will be out of power once this war is over and Hamas needs this to recruit and get funding from muslims around the world. So how would you force 2 parties who do NOT want to negotiate to actually do so? Biden may push Bibi but Russia and Iran are funding Hamas so that kind of limit what actions Biden can actually take. On top of that - The house could approve funding for Israel without Bidens accept since they have a clear majority on this point.

 

[Taurus]

Hmm...So I guess there's never anything so bad that one candidate/party could do that crosses a point of no return

...as long as the other candidate is 'worse'.


Seems like a slippery slope.

We have good evidence to suggest Trump wouldn't just verbally support genocide in Palestine, he'd arm Israel with the best we have. Cluster munitions, MOABs and bunker busters.
His "Muslim ban" alone should give you pause.

It's a choice between a crap sandwich and a shotgun blast to the head.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Genocide is a legitimate human rights issue . I'm sorry if that being tied to Biden annoys you or you're tired of hearing about it.

No apology needed, nor is the hyperbolic strawman argument you're making. I'm annoyed by US policy and response in regards to Israel and Palestine. I have been for decades. You don't have a moral monopoly on that.

I'm just pointing out that all you do is complain about Biden and solely blame him for everything. I've voiced plenty of complaints about Biden, but I also give him credit. You've ground your axe down to the handle with Biden.

I also acknowledge that as annoyed as I am with the current response to the situation in Israel and Gaza, it's a very difficult situation and even a well-intentioned misstep by the Biden administration could make the matter worse for the people of Gaza.

It's also not happening in a vacuum. The Israeli government is not the only bad faith actor that Biden is dealing with here. Russia and China are also involved. There's some major geopolitical chess being played over the situation in Gaza right now.

What would you do if you were president?

You're just stating something. Do you actually know it to be true?

Yes, I know for a fact that just complaining about something never solves anything. I'll add to it that just complaining and blaming never solves problems and actually causes problems. Just complaining and blaming stokes anger and resentment. Every fascist movement and every genocide was born out of people just complaining about and blaming each other for something that's happening.

Complaining and blaming without offering solutions, other than more blaming and punishment, is how people get radicalized. It's how people radicalize other people.

We've heard your complaints and your blames. Now, please tell us what you see as the solution to the current crisis in Gaza? You seem to think there's an obvious solution, so please enlighten us.

 

[Heathen]

Well, it probably doesn't make much sense to invade a neighbor and rape, murder, and kidnape the elderly, children, and other civilians and then be surprised when that invaded country is supported by an allie.

So you completely ignored what I was talking re: the actions of the Biden administration and changed the subject to Hamas.

Let's go with it...Which part of what you just posted excuses the rape, murder of 30,000 - and kidnapping women and children in retaliation?

Excusing it, enabling it, allowing it, encouraging it..is what the United States did. You don't have to come out and say "I want tens of thousands of people to die"

You can just say it with your silence and your unwavering support. Make sense?

 

[bird]

Hamas, Hezbollah and Bibi need to be put on a ship in the middle of the Pacific then the ship needs to be sunk. We can also include the radical RWers in the Israeli government and the radicals in Iran.

I have no use for the Middleeast. The people I do care about. The governments and the religionists not so much. The Arabs turned their backs on the Palestinians when Israel was created. The Israeli governments have wasted good will with annexation of the West Bank and forcing people out for “settlers”.

 

[Heathen]

No apology needed, nor is the hyperbolic strawman argument you're making. I'm annoyed by US policy and response in regards to Israel and Palestine. I have been for decades. You don't have a moral monopoly on that.

A strawman? Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't think I exaggerated or distorted your opinion - I pointed out correctly, per your earlier response, that you seem to be perturbed by what I post about Biden, which in the context of the thread you're posting in right now - relates to his administration's being complicit in genocide on the Israel-Hamas or rather Israel-Palestine situation.

Is that a position that is wrong in your eyes?

I didn't claim a moral monopoly. What I do claim is that I'm not going to just 'let this go' or stop talking about it because it makes other people feel annoyed.

I'm just pointing out that all you do is complain about Biden and solely blame him for everything. I've voiced plenty of complaints about Biden, but I also give him credit. You've ground your axe down to the handle with Biden.

In actuality, the bulk of my arguments against the Biden administration have been around the genocide in Gaza. So 'blame him for everything' isn't accurate at all.

I mentioned that he has failed on his promises and I don't love his politics - but I haven't 'consistently' railed on him on any other subject than Gaza.

As I said earlier, one can 'ground their axe down to a handle' on one issue and still hold completely different views on others.

I'm not sure what you expect me to do when an issue is both a blatant human rights offense, one of (IMO) the worst US foreign policy decisions in decades, and doesn't reflect the people of this country....

I also acknowledge that as annoyed as I am with the current response to the situation in Israel and Gaza, it's a very difficult situation and even a well-intentioned misstep by the Biden administration could make the matter worse for the people of Gaza.

It's also not happening in a vacuum. The Israeli government is not the only bad faith actor that Biden is dealing with here. Russia and China are also involved. There's some major geopolitical chess being played over the situation in Gaza right now.

What would you do if you were president?

What are your thoughts on Russia/China involvement? I would find it hard to believe that Hamas would commit an act knowing they are ensure the destruction of their land and people.

I think i'd have pushed for a ceasefire militarily a long time ago when I knew what Israel was doing to Palestinian citizens (and let's be real - the Biden admin knew this a long time ago).

I would threaten to withhold military aid unless Israel acted in accordance with protocol that limited civilian casualty (ie, not random rampant airstrikes and democide) to root out those responsible for Oct 7th. I'd also investigate how and why Israel seemed to have known about October 7th. This isn't talked about near enough. I'm not claiming a false flag - but it does seem eerie and I wouldn't be 'that' surprised.

As POTUS, I'd do ANYTHING BUT sit idly by as tens of thousands are being massacred by an ally of my country and with my citizens' tax dollars. I wouldn't repeat verified false rumors from Twitter about beheaded babies and then claim that reports of Palestinian deaths might not be accurate 'because Hamas'. I probably wouldn't not talk about the thousands dead less than those 'beheaded babies' too. I wouldn't consistently over months of genocide vote against a ceasefire. I probably wouldn't be on any 'talking terms' with a genocidal maniac like Netanyahu.

Ultimately I think a lot of what the Biden administration has done in terms of this conflict has amounted to a bit of political theatre.

Example - bypassing legislation to fund arms to Israel while also openly condemning 'indiscriminate bombing'. I'm not sure how one can look at that (and other many examples) and think "hey, there's an inconsistency here.."

Yes, I know for a fact that just complaining about something never solves anything. I'll add to it that just complaining and blaming never solves problems and actually causes problems. Just complaining and blaming stokes anger and resentment. Every fascist movement and every genocide was born out of people just complaining about and blaming each other for something that's happening.

So...are we going to pretend this is not a non-sequitur?

Complaining and blaming without offering solutions, other than more blaming and punishment, is how people get radicalized. It's how people radicalize other people.

Are you inferring that there aren't and never were any other US policy solutions available to what has happened in Gaza?

Seems like you have your work cut out for you if this is your view.

I'm happy to give you more solutions from my perspective.

When you repeat the theme of "I hear you complaining about the situation but see no solution from your side" - it's fallacious in nature, IMO.

Above, you seem to be implying that there isn't any better course of action than what has transpired in Gaza and my position on the issue isnt' as valid because I haven't laid out an alternative to it that meets your criteria. Correct me if I'm wrong.

No personal offense, I just believe this isn't a reasonable way to think about it.

 

[Heathen]

Exclusive: Israeli forces fired on food convoy in Gaza, UN documents and satellite analysis reveals | CNN

Israeli forces fired on a United Nations convoy carrying vital food supplies in central Gaza on February 5, before ultimately blocking the trucks from progressing to the northern part of the territory, where Palestinians are on the verge of famine, according to documents shared exclusively by...

www.cnn.com

 

[Taurus]

Exclusive: Israeli forces fired on food convoy in Gaza, UN documents and satellite analysis reveals | CNN

Israeli forces fired on a United Nations convoy carrying vital food supplies in central Gaza on February 5, before ultimately blocking the trucks from progressing to the northern part of the territory, where Palestinians are on the verge of famine, according to documents shared exclusively by...

www.cnn.com

Things like this, it would seem, would be an easy low-risk way for Biden to chastise Israel and get the point across that going completely rabid and shooting everything that moves won't be tolerated.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

So you completely ignored what I was talking re: the actions of the Biden administration and changed the subject to Hamas.

Let's go with it...Which part of what you just posted excuses the rape, murder of 30,000 - and kidnapping women and children in retaliation?

Excusing it, enabling it, allowing it, encouraging it..is what the United States did. You don't have to come out and say "I want tens of thousands of people to die"

You can just say it with your silence and your unwavering support. Make sense?

No, that doesn't make sense.

I've posted here that I'm against the way Israel is fighting the war and, the Biden administration has expressed its displeasure. But of course the US was going to back Israel after they were attacked by Hamas.

 

[Heathen]

No, that doesn't make sense.

I've posted here that I'm against the way Israel is fighting the war and, the Biden administration has expressed its displeasure. But of course the US was going to back Israel after they were attacked by Hamas.

I wasn't talking about you in particular. I was referencing the US in terms of 'supporting with their silence/inaction'.

Also FTR, I have no problem generally with the need for retaliation for what occurred on Oct. 7th. However, you'd always hope that in retaliation a nation doesn't commit atrocities themselves.

 

[LA - L.A.]

A strawman?

Yes, you keep making strawman arguments by ascribing to me things that are not true.

Correct me if I'm wrong,

I just did and am about to do it again.

but don't think I exaggerated or distorted your opinion

You did.

- I pointed out correctly, per your earlier response, that you seem to be perturbed by what I post about Biden,

You're doing your strawman thing again. I've very clearly pointed out your constant complaining and blaming of everything on Biden is played out. It's not annoying or perturbing, it's monotonous. It's yawn inducing, not anger inducing.

I didn't claim a moral monopoly. What I do claim is that I'm not going to just 'let this go' or stop talking about it because it makes other people feel annoyed.

See there you go again. I'm not invested in you or your comments enough to be annoyed by you or your comments. I've already told you that.

I'm just pointing out to you that only complaining and blaming causes problems, it doesn't create solutions.

In actuality, the bulk of my arguments against the Biden administration have been around the genocide in Gaza. So 'blame him for everything' isn't accurate at all.

I was referring specifically what's happening in Gaza and I haven't seen you blame anyone other than Biden.

I'm not sure what you expect me to do...

I don't expect you to do anything.

What are your thoughts on Russia/China involvement?

I've already stated them.

I would threaten to withhold military aid unless Israel acted in accordance with protocol that limited civilian casualty (ie, not random rampant airstrikes and democide) to root out those responsible for Oct 7th.

What would you do if Israel ignored your threats and Congress made it clear they would approve military aid and override your veto?

I'd also investigate how and why Israel seemed to have known about October 7th. This isn't talked about near enough. I'm not claiming a false flag - but it does seem eerie and I wouldn't be 'that' surprised.

It's obvious that the ruling right wingers in Israel knew it would happen and let it happen either out of arrogance or exploitation. What's the point of investigating it?

As POTUS, I'd do ANYTHING BUT sit idly by...

Biden not publicly doing what you want him to do is not the same thing as sitting idly by. This is a strawman argument. You want to paint him as completely disengaged from the situation so you can falsely blame him for that too.

I don't like what I've seen publicly and It turns my stomach to see what's happen to the innocent people in Gaza, but I'm rational enough to understand that what we publicly know isn't even the tip of of the iceberg as far as what's playing out around Gaza.

You seem to think you know what's happening, being planned and being said in private. None of us know that and none of us ever will know that.

So...are we going to pretend this is not a non-sequitur?

You can pretend it is, but it isn't. The language and rhetoric that you use to complain and blame Biden is the language and rhetoric of radicalism and radicalization. My mentioning that is completely relevant to the nature of your posts complaining and blaming Biden.

Are you inferring that there aren't and never were any other US policy solutions available to what has happened in Gaza?

No, I didn't infer anything with what I wrote, because a person can't infer something with what they write, they can only insinuate. I didn't insinuate anything either.

However, you inferred something completely absent and unrelated to what I wrote. What I clearly stated was that you kept complaining and blaming without mentioning any thing you saw as a solution. I clearly said you weren't stating what you thought were solutions.

I wasn't talking about the US at all. I was talking directly to you about you.

No worries though. I'm not annoyed or perturbed that you keep grossly misinterpreted what I write. I know it's not personal, because I see you do it regularly to pretty much everyone. I don't think it's in bad faith either. I think your perception and thinking are skewed by your anger and upset. I'm upset and angry about what's happening in Gaza too, so I get it.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

I wasn't talking about you in particular. I was referencing the US in terms of 'supporting with their silence/inaction'.

Also FTR, I have no problem generally with the need for retaliation for what occurred on Oct. 7th. However, you'd always hope that in retaliation a nation doesn't commit atrocities themselves.

Agree

 

[Heathen]

Yes, you keep making strawman arguments by ascribing to me things that are not true.

I didn't ascribe anything to you other than you objectively being annoyed that I am talking about genocide in the context of Biden.

I've very clearly pointed out your constant complaining and blaming of everything on Biden is played out. It's not annoying or perturbing, it's monotonous. It's yawn inducing, not anger inducing.

Well, again - you are on a thread titled 'Israel-Hamas', where our country - the United States, is directly involved with military, intel, and overall allied support of a country that is participating in a genocide of a certain people. The President of the United States is currently Joe Biden.

Once more - your persistent perceived irritation with me bringing up a primary, relevant figure within this thread is noted.

And I'll also repeat that I do support a lot of what Biden has done. I galvanized a lot of support for him here where I live during the 2020 campaign.

Just not this. Especially, excruciatingly, not this.

See there you go again. I'm not invested in you or your comments enough to be annoyed by you or your comments. I've already told you that.

I'm just pointing out to you that only complaining and blaming causes problems, it doesn't create solutions.

In the context of this issue, not generally, I'm assuming.

I mean, I'm not just complaining and blaming. I'd feel pretty awful if all I did about an issue was rant and rave on the internet about it.

I've shared and assisted the movement of pushing for ceasefire resolutions within my state as well as being a consistent donor to the Palestinian Children's relief fund.

I've also spoken out pretty consistently against anti-semitic and anti-muslim rhetoric amongst people I don't know,and changed (not many) but a few minds on the issue...from my observations many folks think those with opposing views are actively AGAINST what they believe. And I find that often times, they are extremely open and friendly when they realize that it isn't true.

Anyway, of course...I'm sure I could do a lot more and I'd love to.

I was referring specifically what's happening in Gaza and I haven't seen you blame anyone other than Biden.

Oh, there are so many to blame. All across the political spectrum but primarily those in positions of power who refuse to act against genocide.

And not just in the US, but all over the world. India - sending drones to assist in the ethnic cleansing of Gazans. Austria, Czechia, Guatemala, Liberia, Micronesia, Nauru, Papua New Guinea, and Paraguay have all been against a ceasefire, which would objectively preserve innocent human lives. Many arabic countries who have refused to be involved. The list goes on..

FTR, I'm not saying these countries all don't have valid reasons for their decisions. I'm saying that in my view they deserve blame for exacerbating the problem in one way or the other.

What would you do if Israel ignored your threats and Congress made it clear they would approve military aid and override your veto?

Well, again, Biden took action to circumvent Congress to approve extra military stock to Israel. Not the other way around.

But as to your hypothetical - I'm not sure of every situation available. Public advocacy is one avenue, I think - I'm assuming there'd be a way to draw up support amongst allies and the international community to build a coalition and apply pressure, along with making clear that the US-Israel relationship would be at stake for what they are doing.

It's obvious that the ruling right wingers in Israel knew it would happen and let it happen either out of arrogance or exploitation. What's the point of investigating it?

What's the point of further investigating anything? I don't know without a shadow of a doubt all the details. I think it's important we investigate to the fullest everything we can, especially something that within the chain of events has lead to thousands of Palestinians and Israeli deaths.

Biden not publicly doing what you want him to do is not the same thing as sitting idly by. This is a strawman argument. You want to paint him as completely disengaged from the situation so you can falsely blame him for that too.

In the context of what Biden could be doing? I think it could be seen as sitting idly by. By the way, I'm not meaning it so literally as Joe sitting there in a room, ignoring the world around him. I'm talking about him + administration in a collective way.

For instance - even one of the many things I have already mentioned to you that he could do....like NOT repeat lies about beheaded babies, and instead speak up more about the 30,000 people slaughtered? There's one thing that he could do.

Another one is actually NOT bypassing Congress to send more weapons to Israel. So in a sense, he's not just sitting by - he's actively exacerbated the genocide issue.

Are any of those examples untrue or logically inconsistent? They're factual occurrences.

I don't like what I've seen publicly and It turns my stomach to see what's happen to the innocent people in Gaza, but I'm rational enough to understand that what we publicly know isn't even the tip of of the iceberg as far as what's playing out around Gaza.

You seem to think you know what's happening, being planned and being said in private. None of us know that and none of us ever will know that.

I publicly know that people are being massacred because of their ethnicity, where they live and who they are associated with. I work alongside people who's relatives have seen people blown to bits by US bombs with their very eyes ( i work p/t at a nonprofit ).

I publicly know that the US is giving many of the same weapons that have been used in this genocide, and have not called for a ceasefire or cessation of this genocide through any substantive means within the lens of the US-Israel relationship.

Is this not enough to make an assertion that there are people within our government to blame?

You can pretend it is, but it isn't. The language and rhetoric that you use to complain and blame Biden is the language and rhetoric of radicalism and radicalization. My mentioning that is completely relevant to the nature of your posts complaining and blaming Biden.

What is 'radicalism' and 'radicalization' to you? What connotation does it hold? I'm legitimately interested in your response.

You should note that I'm perfectly fine with being called a 'radical' simply because I grill our political leaders on the choices they make. All of them.

Are you also going to claim I'm a 'radical' because I pretty much nonstop chided Trump for the last 8 years?

I'm sure you could look at my posting history back to 2019 and find countless complaints and blaming of Donald and his goons.

However, you inferred something completely absent and unrelated to what I wrote. What I clearly stated was that you kept complaining and blaming without mentioning any thing you saw as a solution. I clearly said you weren't stating what you thought were solutions.

Fair point on the infer/insinuate. Thanks for the catch.

Does it bother you that someone complains about something that is an actual issue, even if they don't have an immediate solution themselves?

I wasn't talking about the US at all. I was talking directly to you about you.

No worries though. I'm not annoyed or perturbed that you keep grossly misinterpreted what I write. I know it's not personal, because I see you do it regularly to pretty much everyone. I don't think it's in bad faith either. I think your perception and thinking are skewed by your anger and upset. I'm upset and angry about what's happening in Gaza too, so I get it.

Okay. And to be clear, it isn't personal.

My intent isn't to misinterpet what you say - truly. I'd object to the claim that I've done it to 'everyone'. Disagree with everyone? Maybe. Most here just don't share my views specific to US involvement, and that's fine. I don't expect them to. But I don't believe I've 'grossly misinterpeted' everyone in this thread.

Made some snide comments and misinterpeted more than a few people? I'm sure that I have. And that's wrong of me, ultimately. I may consistently get angry with things, but I'm also cognizant of the need to be respectful. It's a work in progress....

That being said, you're right. I am angry and upset. I think many people are so disconnected in this American life that we care more about a football game and who's dating who and Netflix than we do about real, life altering issues that our country is in a very impactful way involved in - like genocide.

I just can't sit by and talk about other things. Some call it being an incessant complainer, agitator, person who 'want all the free stuff', impractical, radical, extremist, or bleeding heart leftist.. I've heard it all, man.

Ultimately I think I'm probably just a pretty regular dude with an apparently irregular view. And probably a lot to learn. But I mean no harm.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I didn't ascribe anything to you other than you objectively being annoyed...

I'm not annoyed by anything you've posted.

Once more - your persistent perceived irritation...

I'm not irritated with anything you've posted.

Are you also going to claim I'm a 'radical'...

I didn't claim you were a radical, I pointed out that the language and tone of your posts are similar to those of radicals. I pointed it out as food for thought, not as an accusation.

Does it bother you that someone complains about something that is an actual issue, even if they don't have an immediate solution themselves?

No, it doesn't bother me. It doesn't annoy, irritate or bother me to point out what I see as time and energy that could be spent in a more productive and solution oriented way. I do it with myself as well.

Made some snide comments and misinterpeted more than a few people? I'm sure that I have. And that's wrong of me, ultimately. I may consistently get angry with things, but I'm also cognizant of the need to be respectful. It's a work in progress...

None of us are perfect and all any of us can do is keep working at doing the best we can do.

That being said, you're right. I am angry and upset. I think many people are so disconnected in this American life...

I think there's a lot of truth to that, but it's a mistake to think that someone not expressing their anger and upset in the same manner as you means they aren't also angry and upset.

 

[Heathen]