What happens to the Democratic Party now? (2 Viewers)

[Heathen]

I’m sure much of us are having 2016 flashbacks this morning with a sick feeling to our stomachs..

2 of the last 3 elections Democrats have lost to a far right demagogue

Harris didn’t get close in many states to even Biden’s performance. We could very well lose the Presidency, Senate AND House depending on results the next few days…..

What went wrong?
What could’ve been done better?
What can we change in the future to ensure voters are motivated like they were when Obama was elected?

Democrats have no choice but to admit there’s a huge problem with some aspect of their platform— and to do a deep introspection of what’s going wrong..

 

[Optimus Prime]

Everything is relative and I believe that things are going to be so bad for 90% of voters that they will lash out at who's in control when they vote in 2026 and there won't be any way for Republicans to convince a meaningful amount of them that the Democrats were in control.

But that won't stop them from trying

I think the majority of voters will either not vote at all, vote for Democrats or vote against Republicans.

If you think things are bad, know why it bad, and know who's the blame for it being bad and don't vote that's a major problem

Bonus points if the narrative is "yes things are bad, but it's really the Dems fault for not running a better campaign with a better candidate in 2024, so this is all their fault from a certain point of view"

 

[TampaJoe]

But that won't stop them from trying


If you think things are bad, know why it bad, and know who's the blame for it being bad and don't vote that's a major problem

Bonus points if the narrative is "yes things are bad, but it's really the Dems fault for not running a better campaign with a better candidate in 2024, so this is all their fault from a certain point of view"

You have a funny way of looking at things.

If things are bad then the majority owns it. If they lose in the mid terms, the majority owns it. Dems won’t be to blame if the GOP loses control of either the house or the senate. That will squarely be on the GOP. Not the voters. Not the Dems.

Now apply that simple basic logic to 2024. It isn’t the GOP’s fault or the voters fault that Harris didn’t win. See how this works?

 

[LA 2 L.A.]

But that won't stop them from trying


If you think things are bad, know why it bad, and know who's the blame for it being bad and don't vote that's a major problem

Bonus points if the narrative is "yes things are bad, but it's really the Dems fault for not running a better campaign with a better candidate in 2024, so this is all their fault from a certain point of view"

I hear you, but in this case people who can only vote for Republicans choosing not to vote is a good thing outcome wise.

Those tactics will work on some voters, but I don't think it will fly with enough voters for Republicans to keep control of Congress. It's just what I think. I'm not counting any chickens, because I don't even have any eggs yet.

 

[Optimus Prime]

You have a funny way of looking at things.

If things are bad then the majority owns it. If they lose in the mid terms, the majority owns it. Dems won’t be to blame if the GOP loses control of either the house or the senate. That will squarely be on the GOP. Not the voters. Not the Dems.

Now apply that simple basic logic to 2024. It isn’t the GOP’s fault or the voters fault that Harris didn’t win. See how this works?

Trump still hasn't conceded 2020, and got an army to attack the Capitol to prevent it

Classic 'owning the loss' behavior

Trump's never 'owned' a thing in his life - everything is always someone else's fault

 

[LA 2 L.A.]

Now apply that simple basic logic to 2024. It isn’t the GOP’s fault or the voters fault that Harris didn’t win. See how this works?

Nice try, but no dice. Trump and Republicans lied to voters, that's the only reason they won. Trump and Republicans are responsible for their lying, no one else is.

The voters who chose to believe the obvious lies that Trump and Republicans told are also responsible for choosing to believe the lies. If they don't choose to believe the obvious lies, then Trump doesn't win.

Quit blaming others for the lies, deceptions and dirty tricks that Trump and Republicans pulled to win the election. Quit blaming others for the people who voted for Trump and Republicans even though they knew they were lying, being deceitful and dirty.

Every single one of us is solely responsible for our votes. No one else is.

Before you get all triggered, please be aware that you were speaking directly about a presidential election involving Trump, so of course I'm going to mention Trump.

 

[TampaJoe]

Trump still hasn't conceded 2020, and got an army to attack the Capitol to prevent it

Classic 'owning the loss' behavior

Trump's never 'owned' a thing in his life - everything is always someone else's fault

You aren’t telling me anything I don’t already know. That doesn’t make it anymore valid when Dems do the same thing. It is just as stupid.

 

[LA 2 L.A.]

Trump still hasn't conceded 2020, and got an army to attack the Capitol to prevent it

Classic 'owning the loss' behavior

Trump's never 'owned' a thing in his life - everything is always someone else's fault

TampaJoe replied to the above post with the post below.

You aren’t telling me anything I don’t already know. That doesn’t make it anymore valid when Dems do the same thing. It is just as stupid.

So TampaJoe admits that he knows that Trump still hasn't conceded the 2020 election and got an army to attack the Capitol to stay in power. I can't stress enough that TampaJoe just admitted he knows both of those things are true.

Knowing that he still once again repeats his false belief that Democratic presidents have been just as bad as Trump.

So this is where I challenged TampaJoe to put his money where his mouth is and name the Democratic Presidents who have:

• Never conceded losing an election
• Got an army to attack the Capitol to stay in power.

What comes next is TampaJoe completely failing to name the Democratic Presidents who have done the above, because no other president of any party has done those two things that Trump did.

No president in the entire history of the US has ever been as deceitful and corrupt as Trump is. Implying that any other US president is as bad as Trump is just stupid and proves that the person saying it is a Trump supporter, no matter how much they whine that they aren't.

 

[TampaJoe]

TampaJoe replied to the above post with the post below.


So TampaJoe admits that he knows that Trump still hasn't conceded the 2020 election and got an army to attack the Capitol to stay in power. I can't stress enough that TampaJoe just admitted he knows both of those things are true.

Knowing that he still once again repeats his false belief that Democratic presidents have been just as bad as Trump.

So this is where I challenged TampaJoe to put his money where his mouth is and name the Democratic Presidents who have:

• Never conceded losing an election
• Got an army to attack the Capitol to stay in power.

What comes next is TampaJoe completely failing to name the Democratic Presidents who have done the above, because no other president of any party has done those two things that Trump did.

No president in the entire history of the US has ever been as deceitful and corrupt as Trump is. Implying that any other US president is as bad as Trump is just stupid and proves that the person saying it is a Trump supporter, no matter how much they whine that they aren't.

Show me where I admitted to both of those things. If you have to lie to make your point, you have no point.

You cannot have an honest conversation. You aren’t capable.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Show me where I admitted to both of those things. If you have to lie to make your point, you have no point.

You cannot have an honest conversation. You aren’t capable.

Ooh! Ooh! Pick me! I know!

Trump still hasn't conceded 2020, and got an army to attack the Capitol to prevent it

Classic 'owning the loss' behavior

Trump's never 'owned' a thing in his life - everything is always someone else's fault

You aren’t telling me anything I don’t already know. That doesn’t make it anymore valid when Dems do the same thing. It is just as stupid.

It's right here.

 

[TampaJoe]

Ooh! Ooh! Pick me! I know!





It's right here.

In this conversation what I acknowledged was blaming others. Always somebody else’s fault.

That’s what we were discussing.

It is right there.

 

[MT15]

In this conversation what I acknowledged was blaming others. Always somebody else’s fault.

That’s what we were discussing.

It is right there.

To be fair you quoted Optimus’ entire post, not only the one statement.

It’s fair for us to think you were agreeing with the entire post.

So, you don’t think that first sentence is true? You think Trump HAS conceded he lost in 2020? You think Trump didn’t mean for his ragtag bunch of dissidents to attack the Capitol, and that he didn’t hope it would cause the legislators to cave and not certify Biden’s victory?

What do you think Jan 6 was? Oh with context please.

 

[LA 2 L.A.]

Show me where I admitted to both of those things.

I already did and so did someone else. I didn't lie, I quoted word for word what you said in response to someone else who you quoted word for word.

You said "you're not telling me anything I don't know" and they told you "Trump still hasn't conceded 2020, and got an army to attack the Capitol to prevent it."

Since they didn't tell you anything you didn't already know, that means you already knew that "
Trump still hasn't conceded 2020, and got an army to attack the Capitol to prevent it," because they told you that.

It's basic grade school logic. Surely, you're intelligent enough to understand that, aren't you?

Now it's your turn. I challenge you to name the Democratic presidents, hell any president besides Trump really, who have:

• Never conceded losing an election.
• Got an army to attack the Capitol to stay in power.

You cannot have an honest conversation.

There you go again saying I'm dishonest without quoting a single thing that I said that wasn't honest.

Your anger towards me is not that I can't have an honest conversation with you, because I am only honest in all my conversations with you.

Your anger toward me is that it's hard for you to get away with dishonesty and hypocrisy in conversations with me. That really grinds your gears. That's a you problem, that's not a me problem.

 

[TampaJoe]

To be fair you quoted Optimus’ entire post, not only the one statement.

It’s fair for us to think you were agreeing with the entire post.

So, you don’t think that first sentence is true? You think Trump HAS conceded he lost in 2020? You think Trump didn’t mean for his ragtag bunch of dissidents to attack the Capitol, and that he didn’t hope it would cause the legislators to cave and not certify Biden’s victory?

What do you think Jan 6 was? Oh with context please.

Oh I definitely think that Trump didn’t concede. I also definitely think he encouraged the crowd to protest. That’s all I know. Do I think he coordinated with elements in the crowd to stage a coup. I haven’t seen proof of that. So to answer directly, I don’t believe it was a coup.

Do I agree with or “like” what happened. No. Said so at the time. I believed he should have conceded on or before by the time the last state certified.

I don’t believe there is anyway a case can be made of election fraud between Nov and the inauguration. The courts and the government don’t work that fast. All his protestation of election fraud accomplished is undermining the very government institutions he wants or wanted to lead. It is divisive and counterproductive. Was then and it is now.

But was it a coup? Not in my view. That case hasn’t been made.

 

[TampaJoe]

I already did and so did someone else. I didn't lie, I quoted word for word what you said in response to someone else who you quoted word for word.

You said "you're not telling me anything I don't know" and they told you "Trump still hasn't conceded 2020, and got an army to attack the Capitol to prevent it."

Since they didn't tell you anything you didn't already know, that means you already knew that "
Trump still hasn't conceded 2020, and got an army to attack the Capitol to prevent it," because they told you that.

It's basic grade school logic. Surely, you're intelligent enough to understand that, aren't you?

Now it's your turn. I challenge you to name the Democratic presidents, hell any president besides Trump really, who have:

• Never conceded losing an election.
• Got an army to attack the Capitol to stay in power.

There you go again saying I'm dishonest without quoting a single thing that I said that wasn't honest.

Your anger towards me is not that I can't have an honest conversation with you, because I am only honest in all my conversations with you.

Your anger toward me is that it's hard for you to get away with dishonesty and hypocrisy in conversations with me. That really grinds your gears. That's a you problem, that's not a me problem.

If you bothered to follow the conversation, we were discussing blaming others for election defeats. In addition, reading the second paragraph should have clued you in. But you were too busy trying to play gotcha to think at grade level higher the 4th.

So no, you aren’t capable of having an honest discussion. You just want to fight. You prove it over and over.

 

[MT15]

But was it a coup? Not in my view. That case hasn’t been made.

Maybe you need to learn more about the plan then. He was putting pressure on state legislators, Senators, Representatives, Governors, and his own VP. He wanted them to all do things that would prevent Biden’s win being certified. He and his people arranged for fake slates of electors to be convened. In some cases they went out of their way to meet in the same way that the real electors had met because they hoped Pence would discard the real electoral votes and use theirs. Trump famously pressured Georgia to just “find” the exact number of votes for him he needed to win the state. “Just say you re-calculated”. Remember that? He called the Governor of Arizona as he was certifying the vote in that state, he refused to pick up the call. It didn’t work, but the effort for the autocoup was definitely there.

It’s called an autocoup when someone who is already in power tries to retain power illegally after being voted out.

Even Ted Cruz made the argument on the floor of the joint meeting of Congress (before all hell broke loose) that they should refuse to certify the election that day, declare a 10-day pause, and do an investigation. They cannot constitutionally do that, as the date of certification is set. But he argued that it could and more to the point that it should be done - as he put it - to set everyone’s mind at ease.

The effort was there.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Maybe you need to learn more about the plan then. He was putting pressure on state legislators, Senators, Representatives, Governors, and his own VP. He wanted them to all do things that would prevent Biden’s win being certified. He and his people arranged for fake slates of electors to be convened. In some cases they went out of their way to meet in the same way that the real electors had met because they hoped Pence would discard the real electoral votes and use theirs. Trump famously pressured Georgia to just “find” the exact number of votes for him he needed to win the state. “Just say you re-calculated”. Remember that? He called the Governor of Arizona as he was certifying the vote in that state, he refused to pick up the call. It didn’t work, but the effort for the autocoup was definitely there.

It’s called an autocoup when someone who is already in power tries to retain power illegally after being voted out.

Even Ted Cruz made the argument on the floor of the joint meeting of Congress (before all hell broke loose) that they should refuse to certify the election that day, declare a 10-day pause, and do an investigation. They cannot constitutionally do that, as the date of certification is set. But he argued that it could and more to the point that it should be done - as he put it - to set everyone’s mind at ease.

The effort was there.

And allegedly had a much better framework and plan in place if he had lost the election last year

Which would have been very ugly to watch unfold

 

[LA 2 L.A.]

If you bothered to follow the conversation,...

I did follow the conversation between you and @Optimus Prime .

Just like I followed the conversation a couple of weeks ago in which Optimus Prime said "So kinda like ‘woke’?" to which you replied "Yep. Exactly." I had followed that conversation as well, so I knew that Optimus Prime was saying that all the "woke" criticism was fascist demonizing.

So I said to you, "I'm glad that you agree that there are fascists and they are in fact doing fascist things," because that was the context of what Optimus had said that you said, "yep, exactly" to.

You got all bent out of shape and said this to me, "I was responding to a specific statement in plain written English and not all the other crap you think I should know about OP. So stating I agreed to anything more than what I responded to is false and misleading."

Yet, when I point out that you said you already knew everything in the quote you responded to, now you do a complete about face to say that you were not directly responding to just what you quoted, but were responding to the entire conversation.

That's a classic example of bad faith double standards and a form of moving the goal posts.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

If you bothered to follow the conversation, we were discussing blaming others for election defeats. In addition, reading the second paragraph should have clued you in. But you were too busy trying to play gotcha to think at grade level higher the 4th.

So no, you aren’t capable of having an honest discussion. You just want to fight. You prove it over and over.

You responded to a whole post and literally said, "You aren’t telling me anything I don’t already know".

I think the problem isn't that LA is unable to have an honest conversation. I think the problem is that you are incapable of identifying what an honest, intellectual conversation looks like.