Virginia teacher sues school after being fired for not using transgender student's pronouns... (1 Viewer)

[crosswatt]

A Virginia high school teacher who was fired for refusing to use a transgender student's preferred pronouns has filed a lawsuit against school officials and the board.
Peter Vlaming, who was a French teacher at West Point High School, said he was fired because he would not use pronouns such as "him" and "his" to refer to a female student who was transitioning to male.

According to the suit filed Monday in King William County, using the male pronouns would have "violated" Vlaming's "conscience" and went against his religious beliefs, so he called the student by his preferred name during class and avoided using pronouns altogether.

Virginia teacher sues school after being fired for not using transgender student's pronouns

Peter Vlaming, who taught French, was fired from West Point High School in December 2018. He said using the preferred pronouns would violate his religious beliefs.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[SystemShock]

Where is the line though?

Why does the teacher's "deeply held moral belief" override the student's deeply held moral belief that he is a male and deserves to be referred to as such?

In this case, I think whatever the underlying reason, it is irrelevant. Calling someone by their name, and especially a name that a person chose, is not an affront. That's their name.

Who is being harmed more deeply and lastingly? The teacher saying he or the student being called she?

But the teacher didn't call the student "he" or "she". The teacher called the student by the name the student chose. What's the harm there?

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Where is the line though?

Why does the teacher's "deeply held moral belief" override the student's deeply held moral belief that he is a male and deserves to be referred to as such?

Who is being harmed more deeply and lastingly? The teacher saying he or the student being called she?

But the teacher already made a reasonable accommodation in call the student by his name. Why can't that be enough?

 

[Optimus Prime]

But the teacher didn't call the student "he" or "she". The teacher called the student by the name the student chose. What's the harm there?

But the teacher already made a reasonable accommodation in call the student by his name. Why can't that be enough?

That's fine when talking directly to the person, Name, You/Your but at some point you're going to have to use a pronoun when talking about the person

It would be very odd not to

If you were to transition as told us all that you would like to now be called SystemShockette

It would be weird to say something like "I really like SystemShockette, SystemShockette makes some very good points, especially when we get a new crazy bible thumper and SystemShockette lays the smack down. I also appreciate SystemShockette's point of view being in Mexico"

You can't use the person's name instead of a pronoun every single time. it's weird and hard to keep track of and makes you sound like an android

 

[RobF]

That's fine when talking directly to the person, Name, you your but at some point you're going to have to use a pronoun when talking about the person

It would be very odd not to

If you were to transition as told us all that you would to now be called SystemShockette

It would be weird to say something like "I really like SystemShockette, SystemShockette makes some very good points, especially when we get a new crazy bible thumper and SystemShockette lays the smack down. I also appreciate SystemShockette's point of view being in Mexico"

You can't use the person's name instead of a pronoun every single time. it's weird and hard to keep track of and makes you sound like an android

Right. And if the teacher isn't routinely using only names and avoiding pronouns for everyone, they're singling out the child for different treatment to all the other children. That's pretty bad.

 

[SystemShock]

That's fine when talking directly to the person, Name, you your but at some point you're going to have to use a pronoun when talking about the person

No you don't. You can use that person's name. Again, a pronoun is a word used instead of a noun or name. You can definitely use proper names when you talk about someone.

If you were to transition as told us all that you would to now be called SystemShockette

It would be weird to say something like "I really like SystemShockette, SystemShockette makes some very good points, especially when we get a new crazy bible thumper and SystemShockette lays the smack down. I also appreciate SystemShockette's point of view being in Mexico"

Try it now with Pam, or Julie...

"I really like Julie. Julie makes very good points, especially when we get a new crazy bible thumper and Julie lays the smack down. I also appreciate Julie's point of view being in Mexico"

You can't use the person's name instead of a pronoun every single time.

Why not?

it's weird and hard to keep track of and makes you sound like an android

Even if I grant you all of that, still, calling someone by the name they chose, either in front of them or when talking about them, is not an affront, and it definitely should not be cause for firing someone from their job.

On a side note, in Spanish, pronouns aren't used that often. Maybe you have noticed that I do that when I post, instead of posting "pronoun should have done this", I'd post "should have done this". That's a thing that remains with me.

Even when talking to people directly. "You have to do this" (tu tienes que hacer esto) is habitually said "have to do this" (tienes que hacer esto).

 

[Optimus Prime]

Try it now with Pam, or Julie...

"I really like Julie. Julie makes very good points, especially when we get a new crazy bible thumper and Julie lays the smack down. I also appreciate Julie's point of view being in Mexico"

That is just as weird to me

It could and should be:

"I really like Julie. She makes very good points, especially when we get a new crazy bible thumper and she lays the smack down. I also appreciate her point of view being in Mexico"

 

[SystemShock]

That is just as weird to me

It could and should be:

"I really like Julie. She makes very good points, especially when we get a new crazy bible thumper and she lays the smack down. I also appreciate her point of view being in Mexico"

Well, maybe it is weird to you, but "it should be", no. But more importantly, no one should get fired from their job for it, which is really the crux of the situation.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Well, maybe it is weird to you, but "it should be", no. But more importantly, no one should get fired from their job for it, which is really the crux of the situation.

If the teacher was fired for the belief that their actions were disrespectful to the student, that is a valid reason to fire a teacher.

The only thing that is debatable is whether or not the teacher was being disrespectful. It's not debatable that a teacher refusing to treat a student with respect is a valid reason to fire a teacher.

 

[coldseat]

Schools are about the students. We wouldn't have schools if we didn't need to teach students. As such, the needs of the student in school, should take precedence over the vague and ever shifting religious beliefs (yesterday it's bathrooms, today it's pronouns) of teachers. Teachers, while they do and should have academic independence, are at the end of the day employees. If an employers rules are to acknowledge a students chosen pronouns (for the students well being), then teachers need to comply while at school. They can go home and be jerks if they want too, but not while at school. It's the same for any other employee that works for an employer.

If they do not want to use the students pronouns, go start a charter school or work for a conservative religious school were that's the stated policy. He wasn't fired because of his "sincerely held religious beliefs" , he was fired for defying an employers request that prioritized the well being of the student. And no, his opinion didn't really matter.

 

[fooferdoggie]

Where is the line though?

Why does the teacher's "deeply held moral belief" override the student's deeply held moral belief that he is a male and deserves to be referred to as such?

Who is being harmed more deeply and lastingly? The teacher saying he or the student being called she?

you keep forgetting there is only one deeply head belief that's real silly.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Right. And if the teacher isn't routinely using only names and avoiding pronouns for everyone, they're singling out the child for different treatment to all the other children. That's pretty bad.

Exactly this.

 

[SystemShock]

If the teacher was fired for the belief that their actions were disrespectful to the student, that is a valid reason to fire a teacher.

Disrespectful... is it disrespectful to call or refer to someone by their name?

 

[SystemShock]

Schools are about the students. We wouldn't have schools if we didn't need to teach students. As such, the needs of the student in school, should take precedence over the vague and ever shifting religious beliefs (yesterday it's bathrooms, today it's pronouns) of teachers. Teachers, while they do and should have academic independence, are at the end of the day employees. If an employers rules are to acknowledge a students chosen pronouns (for the students well being), then teachers need to comply while at school. They can go home and be jerks if they want too, but not while at school. It's the same for any other employee that works for an employer.

If they do not want to use the students pronouns, go start a charter school or work for a conservative religious school were that's the stated policy. He wasn't fired because of his "sincerely held religious beliefs" , he was fired for defying an employers request that prioritized the well being of the student. And no, his opinion didn't really matter.

That's great and all, but there's nothing harmful in calling someone by their name, or referring to someone by their name when talking about them.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Disrespectful... is it disrespectful to call or refer to someone by their name?

Same ol' SystemShock.

I was very clear that my point is that if any teacher is disrespectful to a student, that is a valid reason to fire the teacher. You do know what "if" means, don't you?

To answer your question, it is possible to refer to someone by their name in a way that is intentionally disrespectful or belittling. It's a very common thing. We communicate a lot more with our tone and body language than we do with the words we use. Think about how many times Trump has accurately said someone's name while speaking them with nothing but contempt and disrespect for that person.

The teacher referring to the student by their name does not prove one way or another if they were being respectful to the student or not. That's why I think it would be unreasonable of me to jump to any conclusions with what scant details have be reported.

 

[brandon]

I always love it how @SystemShock will blast religion at any and every opportunity he gets until it’s about LGBTQ issues, and then for some reason he’s as stupid as they are but can’t see it.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Well, maybe it is weird to you, but "it should be", no. But more importantly, no one should get fired from their job for it, which is really the crux of the situation.

Yes it should be

People should use pronouns, they exist for a reason

If a student converted to Islam changed his name to Akbar and a teacher refused to call him that

“I don’t believe in that, I’m going to keep calling you by your birth name Jeremy”

I believe that there would be a process and escalation of discipline and I believe firing would be at the end of that process

 

[SystemShock]

I always love it how @SystemShock will blast religion at any and every opportunity he gets until it’s about LGBTQ issues, and then for some reason he’s as stupid as they are but can’t see it.

First, thank you for calling me stupid. It's always appreciated when discussions devolve into name calling. However, I am offended you didn't use my preferred insult, pompous know-it-all arse clown.

For the record, I don't "blast" religion at any and every opportunity I get.

I do have discussions about the validity/interpretation of religious texts, usually around Christianity; it's the dominant religion in this hemisphere. It's rare that I get the opportunity to discuss Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism... I do sometimes...

I do speak often against the Catholic church because of the church's practices, like aiding an abetting sexual predators of children. But that has nothing to do with Christianity or Catholicism, and everything to do with an organization which aids and abets sexual predators of children.

As for LGBTQ+ issues: I do express opinions mostly about sports, and around the ideology of gender. And it surely has become an ideology... sometime ago, either here or over at SR, I made a post in which I simply expanded the + in LGBTQ+ using the NYC chart of recognized genders, and got. well, blasted by people who found that offensive, not even knowing what it was. Then, when I explained what it was, I still got blasted for my explanation, when a "my bad" was in order. That's what ideologies do; it's 100% compliance or you become the enemy.

As for the issue at hand: in this case, I find the motivation irrelevant, even if the motivation is religion, or even if religion is just being used as a reason. Regardless of the motivation, we look at the actions, at what was done, and what was done, a teacher was fired from his job for using someone's name instead of a pronoun, which I find ridiculous, (and ironically, I find the firing of the teacher ideology driven as well).

I was going to expand on the last paragraph, but frankly, I've typed way more than your comment deserves, and no matter what I say, I'm not 100% compliant to your ideology, so I'll away your next insult.

 

[SystemShock]

Yes it should be

So if your name is "John" and I wanted to say good morning to you, I should say "Good morning, he"?
"She, could you please pass the salt"? "

People should use pronouns, they exist for a reason

Pronouns exist, but there is no law that says anyone must use pronouns. Yet again, pronouns are merely substitutes for proper names or nouns. I'll ask again, what is wrong with using proper names or nouns?

If a student converted to Islam changed his name to Akbar and a teacher refused to call him that

But the teacher in this case did not do that, right? Actually, in this case, the student changed their name and the teacher used that name.

“I don’t believe in that, I’m going to keep calling you by your birth name Jeremy”

But the teacher didn't do that, right? He called the student by the student's preferred name.

I believe that there would be a process and escalation of discipline and I believe firing would be at the end of that process

You believe that someone should be fired from his job for using someone else's proper name instead of a pronoun. Not much of a difference from the other side, frankly. You don't see it, because you think your ideology is righteous, like, well...