Virginia teacher sues school after being fired for not using transgender student's pronouns... (1 Viewer)

[crosswatt]

A Virginia high school teacher who was fired for refusing to use a transgender student's preferred pronouns has filed a lawsuit against school officials and the board.
Peter Vlaming, who was a French teacher at West Point High School, said he was fired because he would not use pronouns such as "him" and "his" to refer to a female student who was transitioning to male.

According to the suit filed Monday in King William County, using the male pronouns would have "violated" Vlaming's "conscience" and went against his religious beliefs, so he called the student by his preferred name during class and avoided using pronouns altogether.

Virginia teacher sues school after being fired for not using transgender student's pronouns

Peter Vlaming, who taught French, was fired from West Point High School in December 2018. He said using the preferred pronouns would violate his religious beliefs.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Optimus Prime]

So if your name is "John" and I wanted to say good morning to you, I should say "Good morning, he"?
"She, could you please pass the salt"? "

You're smarter than this

 

[SystemShock]

Same ol' SystemShock.

Cute.

I was very clear that my point is that if any teacher is disrespectful to a student, that is a valid reason to fire the teacher. You do know what "if" means, don't you?

Could you possibly get to the point, instead of trying to feel superior with all of the condescending jabs?

To answer your question, it is possible to refer to someone by their name in a way that is intentionally disrespectful or belittling.

Like I don't know that... I'm Mexican.

The teacher referring to the student by their name does not prove one way or another if they were being respectful to the student or not. That's why I think it would be unreasonable of me to jump to any conclusions with what scant details have be reported.

I bet.

So body language and tone of voice should be policed now. Great.

There is no indication that this teacher was disrespectful in any way (unless, of course, if you think that merely referring to someone by their proper name is disrespectful), using body language, tone of voice, whatever, and all indication that because this student wasn't 100% catered to by this teacher, the teacher was fired.

 

[SystemShock]

You're smarter than this

I am just pointing out the silliness of the idea that pronouns must be used.

 

[Optimus Prime]

I am just pointing out the silliness of the idea that pronouns must be used.

and I pointed out the silliness of not using them

as you unintentionally did as well

"I really like Julie. Julie makes very good points, especially when we get a new crazy bible thumper and Julie lays the smack down. I also appreciate Julie's point of view being in Mexico"

If someone spoke like this you'd think there was something wrong with them

 

[coldseat]

That's great and all, but there's nothing harmful in calling someone by their name, or referring to someone by their name when talking about them.

As it pertains to this case, I don't know if the firing was justified based on the little I've read. I find it had to belive that the teacher can avoid pronouns at all times, but using the students name in and of itself isn't problematic.

 

[Dragon]

So if your name is "John" and I wanted to say good morning to you, I should say "Good morning, he"?
"She, could you please pass the salt"? "


Pronouns exist, but there is no law that says anyone must use pronouns. Yet again, pronouns are merely substitutes for proper names or nouns. I'll ask again, what is wrong with using proper names or nouns?


But the teacher in this case did not do that, right? Actually, in this case, the student changed their name and the teacher used that name.


But the teacher didn't do that, right? He called the student by the student's preferred name.


You believe that someone should be fired from his job for using someone else's proper name instead of a pronoun. Not much of a difference from the other side, frankly. You don't see it, because you think your ideology is righteous, like, well...

The point being made is that if a teacher uses a different pronoun or name for one specific student, while using "he" or "she" for everyone else, it could indeed be offensive as it singles that student out as "different."

As someone with two transgender family members—a cousin who transitioned from male to female, and my husband’s nephew who transitioned from female to male—I understand the challenges transgender individuals face. My cousin, in particular, had a very difficult time, especially due to a lack of support from her father, who could not accept her identity. She knew she was female from around 5 years old, long before anyone could have "influenced" her. Despite her father’s attempts to make her more masculine, her identity was clear to her.

If a student wishes to be addressed in a certain way at school, it is crucial to respect that request. Failing to do so can cause serious harm to a child who is already struggling with identity issues.

 

[RobF]

To add some detail to this discussion, this is the Virginia Supreme's Court opinion that reinstated the lawsuit from December 2023:

Vlaming v. West Point School Board

In this case, the Virginia Supreme Court ruled in favor of Peter Vlaming, a high school French teacher who was terminated by the West Point School Board for refusing to use a transgender student's preferred pronouns. Vlaming had chosen to use the student's preferred name but avoided using any...

law.justia.com

 

[Optimus Prime]

let's say i'm teaching a class of 19 with 'traditionally normal american' like Tom and Beth
and then i have a new student of color with a name that has plenty of vowels and strings of consonants and diacritical marks - the student tells me their name and it's pronounced in ways that make no sense to how language works as i know it
so i say, 'i can't say your name, I'm just going to call you 'T'"
and the student says 'it's very important to me that you call me by my proper name'
and i'm like "sorry, T'

The principle tells me to address the student by their proper name
i refuse

now what?

What would your advice be to a student who was struggling with a particular topic?

A. Study and practice until you get it right

B. You tried, it was too hard, just put what you think the answer should be

 

[Optimus Prime]

yup
and students get ****** if you get their names wrong (some do)
one of the problems im encountering this year is 2 students in 2 different classes with the same name spelling but different pronunciations

Like Caroline?

 

[GrandAdmiral]

It's a shame there can be no middle ground. The consistent "all or none" approach from both sides is exactly why this country - this planet - is so forked. If we want to know the blame, look in the mirror and out the finger.

 

[Optimus Prime]

It's a shame there can be no middle ground. The consistent "all or none" approach from both sides is exactly why this country - this planet - is so forked. If we want to know the blame, look in the mirror and out the finger.

In general I agree but not always

“I just want to live my life in peace and be treated like a human being with all the rights and respect that entails”

“I hear you, but we really need to find a middle ground on that”

 

[LA - L.A.]

Could you possibly get to the point...

I've already stated my point very clearly twice. You've ignored it both times.

If any teacher is disrespectful to any student, that is a valid reason to fire a teacher. If a teacher is disrespectful in how they refer to or address a student, then that is a valid reason to fire them.

Third time's a charm?

 

[LA - L.A.]

The point being made is that if a teacher uses a different pronoun or name for one specific student, while using "he" or "she" for everyone else, it could indeed be offensive as it singles that student out as "different."

As someone with two transgender family members—a cousin who transitioned from male to female, and my husband’s nephew who transitioned from female to male—I understand the challenges transgender individuals face. My cousin, in particular, had a very difficult time, especially due to a lack of support from her father, who could not accept her identity. She knew she was female from around 5 years old, long before anyone could have "influenced" her. Despite her father’s attempts to make her more masculine, her identity was clear to her.

If a student wishes to be addressed in a certain way at school, it is crucial to respect that request. Failing to do so can cause serious harm to a child who is already struggling with identity issues.

This is one of those issues that reveals whether a person leans toward an authoritarian approach to life and relationships, or toward an accepting approach to life and relationships.

 

[LA - L.A.]

It's a shame there can be no middle ground.

You're inaccurately saying no one has stated a "middle ground" opinion in this discussion. Several people have stated nuanced, middle ground opinions.

The consistent "all or none" approach from both sides...

Which is what you are doing right now. You're inaccurately saying that only two directly opposing and absolute opinions have been stated. Several people have expressed more than two different opinions with varying degrees of nuanced differences.

...is exactly why this country - this planet - is so forked. If we want to know the blame, look in the mirror and out the finger.

You're blaming people for screwing up the world by blaming people. Not everyone sees someone who blames people when they look in the mirror.

 

[SystemShock]

As it pertains to this case, I don't know if the firing was justified based on the little I've read. I find it had to belive that the teacher can avoid pronouns at all times, but using the students name in and of itself isn't problematic.

I don't don't think is hard to do... maybe if you are constantly talking about someone, you'll slip here and there, but ...

 

[SystemShock]

The point being made is that if a teacher uses a different pronoun or name for one specific student, while using "he" or "she" for everyone else, it could indeed be offensive as it singles that student out as "different."

But the teacher in the case we are discussing wasn't using a different pronoun or different name, the teacher was using the name the student gave the teacher.

And the post you quoted, I was being facetious, yet, as I have said many times, no one addresses anyone directly by the 3rd person, but while talking about someone else that's not there.

As someone with two transgender family members—a cousin who transitioned from male to female, and my husband’s nephew who transitioned from female to male—I understand the challenges transgender individuals face. My cousin, in particular, had a very difficult time, especially due to a lack of support from her father, who could not accept her identity. She knew she was female from around 5 years old, long before anyone could have "influenced" her. Despite her father’s attempts to make her more masculine, her identity was clear to her.

If a student wishes to be addressed in a certain way at school, it is crucial to respect that request. Failing to do so can cause serious harm to a child who is already struggling with identity issues.

No matter the request? Or just when it refers to gender? And again, the case at hand, the teacher already addressed the student by the student's preferred name.

All sorts of people face all sorts of challenges in life (many of which are ignored or even make fun of), and many people lack paternal support for a variety of reasons beyond gender. Of course, that doesn't mean we can be butt crevasses and completely ignore them or even attack them over it, but there is such a thing as reasonable accommodations, and in the case we are discussing, calling someone by their name seems to me a very reasonable accommodation.

I'll add, Identity issues aren't exclusive to transgender either, and some identity issues, some even get angry at the people with them, ironically, many are the same people who demand 100% compliance to their gender philosophy.

And given that "ifs" were thrown at me, let me throw something at you: even if this teacher was forced to use pronouns, you know that doesn't mean the teacher accepts that student as what the student claims to be. If ask directly about acceptance, should the teacher lie to keep their job? Or do you fire the teacher purely for his beliefs?

 

[LA - L.A.]

In my opinion, every teacher should except every student for who they are without judgement. If a teacher's beliefs keep them from accepting some students for who they are or causes them to judge who some students are as wrong, then that teacher is in the wrong profession or the wrong school.

If a teacher has beliefs that keeps them from accepting some students for who they are, then they need to find a school founded on their belief system. They have no business teaching in a school that has students who they believe are inherently wrong just for being who they are.

How many people would champion the right of a white supremacist teacher to keep their job if they refused to refer to non-white students with human pronouns? Imagine a teacher saying, "my beliefs say they are not human, so I will not refer to them with human pronouns, I'll just refer to them by name." Even though the excuse for the bigotry is different, the inherent bigotry is the same. I know that bigotry has a difficult time recognizing bigotry when they see it.

Science has proven that gender is not biologically binary. There is not just a "female" or a "male" brain. Our identities and personalities are in our brains, not our genitals. A person's gender identity comes from inside their head, not from between their legs. I know that's a difficult truth for some people to accept, just like some people find it difficult to accept the truth that the Earth is not flat.

A student asking a teacher to refer to them by a specific name or common pronouns is a small, simple ask. If a teacher believes it's a request their beliefs don't allow them to honor, then they've got no business teaching any students in my opinion.

 

[Optimus Prime]

What about if I want my teacher to call me "most exalted Sultan of the 13th Galaxy of Our Master of Ambruelia? Because I sincerely identify as a star being? Since my body is composed of stardust (scientific fact)?

“You’re saying two men can get married? Just because they want to? What if I want to marry my dog? Or marry my toaster?”

There isn’t a legitimate argument or debate out there there can’t be diminished, cheapened or belittled by tossing a strawman down a slippery slope