US strikes deal w/ Taliban to remove troops from Afghanistan (1 Viewer)

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Heathen

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Surprised I didn't see it posted anywhere. And to preface -- I know there are too many contextual complexities to name regarding this.

Props to this administration for pushing to get this done. Endless war shouldn't be what American citizens view as 'normal'.

This would be a huge win for Americans and Afghanis if this works out as planned:

The US and Nato allies have agreed to withdraw all troops within 14 months if the militants uphold the deal.

President Trump said it had been a "long and hard journey" in Afghanistan. "It's time after all these years to bring our people back home," he said.

Talks between the Afghan government and the Taliban are due to follow.

Under the agreement, the militants also agreed not to allow al-Qaeda or any other extremist group to operate in the areas they control.
 

bdb13

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Don’t misunderstand me. I’m not saying Biden is blameless, there were definitely mistakes made, especially the one you mentioned-to defer to the Afghan government’s wishes that evacuations not start sooner than they did.

I just see far too many people eager to blame Biden for everything when the situation was largely set by the Trump administration. Trump essentially gave the Taliban the country, he ordered the release of 5000 prisoners on the word of the Taliban. If Biden had done that, then you could lay almost everything at his feet. But the disastrous foreign policy pursued by Trump dealt the US this hand.
That's definitely fair. It's been a joint effort in getting to this point, no doubt. The Biden admin was handed a situation in Afghanistan by the previous admin that was destined for a disastrous ending and when the Biden admin stepped into the role itself it seems they did not recognize that the situation was an imminently dire one where a higher level of thoughtfulness and urgency was required of them.
 

The moose

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I have to disagree with the last few posts. The buck stops with Biden, he’s the commander in chief. We should have had evacuations done before any withdrawal, not after. Maybe that means not sticking to Trump’s deal, but the potential loss of life is worth it. It definitely means don’t take the Taliban their word they will let us get everyone out.

Ultimately, I think Biden was so laser focused on the what, he ignored the how. This was sloppy, and I thought so even before lives were lost. I don’t think the Taliban push is significantly different under anyone else, but our withdrawal needed to be.

Maybe ISIS-K still attacks under the above circumstances, maybe they don’t. But knowing the Taliban pushing in didn’t enable this would certainly make it less hazy.
So realistically what would you want?

Send troops in and start this crap all over again? Only two options here.

I guess the glossing over the facts that the last administration did not do one thing to help our afgan friends to get out even intentionally screwed them. You know like process a single visa!

This is a two way street here. You can't blame the person cleaning up the shirt bed when you know the last administration shirt the bed.
 

bdb13

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So realistically what would you want?

Send troops in and start this crap all over again? Only two options here.

I guess the glossing over the facts that the last administration did not do one thing to help our afgan friends to get out even intentionally screwed them. You know like process a single visa!

This is a two way street here. You can't blame the person cleaning up the shirt bed when you know the last administration shirt the bed.
I think it's pretty obvious that Biden didn't properly prepare for the "it all goes to hell very very quickly" scenario, which honestly seems like it probably should have been viewed as the most likely scenario to play out.

Biden's been President since January of this year, I flatly refuse to believe that this is the best his admin could muster in the months they've had since they've assumed power. If it is, it's been pretty pathetic.
 

bdb13

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So realistically what would you want?

Send troops in and start this crap all over again? Only two options here.

I guess the glossing over the facts that the last administration did not do one thing to help our afgan friends to get out even intentionally screwed them. You know like process a single visa!

This is a two way street here. You can't blame the person cleaning up the shirt bed when you know the last administration shirt the bed.
That being said, I do get it with the general feeling towards a lot of the criticism emanating from the right here. Screw most of them who've acted here like they give a shirt about the Afghans and the Afghans who've helped us. Gee wow, so these are the foreigners/refugees you give a fork about huh? Come the fork on, you don't and we know you obviously don't.

Wouldn't be a second thought to those Afghani lives by them if this was going down under Trump and the ones that would say otherwise are liars.
 

coldseat

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I have to disagree with the last few posts. The buck stops with Biden, he’s the commander in chief. We should have had evacuations done before any withdrawal, not after. Maybe that means not sticking to Trump’s deal, but the potential loss of life is worth it. It definitely means don’t take the Taliban their word they will let us get everyone out.

Ultimately, I think Biden was so laser focused on the what, he ignored the how. This was sloppy, and I thought so even before lives were lost. I don’t think the Taliban push is significantly different under anyone else, but our withdrawal needed to be.

Maybe ISIS-K still attacks under the above circumstances, maybe they don’t. But knowing the Taliban pushing in didn’t enable this would certainly make it less hazy.

We had already started the withdrawal a 10 months before Biden was even in office. What you wanted to happen was impossible for Biden to do. We had already reduced our troop level for 9,800 to 2,500 by the time Biden took office. I still think Biden made a mistake by continuing to reduce the troop level from there, but I don't think that makes any difference in how the Taliban took over Afghanistan. Considering we were no longer involved in combat operation, it's hard for me to see how that made a substantial difference in the outcome. Just like it's hard for me to see how withdrawing from Bagram airfield made a substantial difference in the outcome (another popular claim). The only way for Biden to really have made any difference in this outcome was to reengage in combat operations and increase the troop level at the start of his administration. Something he was never going to do (unless necessary to evacuate, which we saw).

This shirt show is bad, it was always going to be bad. It would have been 100 times worse under Trump and his hapless administration.
 

bdb13

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We had already started the withdrawal a 10 months before Biden was even in office. What you wanted to happen was impossible for Biden to do. We had already reduced our troop level for 9,800 to 2,500 by the time Biden took office. I still think Biden made a mistake by continuing to reduce the troop level from there, but I don't think that makes any difference in how the Taliban took over Afghanistan. Considering we were no longer involved in combat operation, it's hard for me to see how that made a substantial difference in the outcome. Just like it's hard for me to see how withdrawing from Bagram airfield made a substantial difference in the outcome (another popular claim). The only way for Biden to really have made any difference in this outcome was to reengage in combat operations and increase the troop level at the start of his administration. Something he was never going to do (unless necessary to evacuate, which we saw).

This shirt show is bad, it was always going to be bad. It would have been 100 times worse under Trump and his hapless administration.
That backlog of Afghani visa applicants, are we getting those people out now? I assume they're probably largely included in the numbers we've already evacuated right? So if we're able to just go ahead and do it here at the end anyway once everything's gone to hell, it seems like had the Biden admin come into office with heightened urgency to push and deal with that situation left to them by the Trump admin, that maybe we wouldn't be having to coordinate and trust the Taliban in the way that we're having to now.

It was always going to end in disaster of some sort, I recognize that. I just contend that it didn't necessarily have to go down like this.
 

Saint by the Bay

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We had already started the withdrawal a 10 months before Biden was even in office. What you wanted to happen was impossible for Biden to do. We had already reduced our troop level for 9,800 to 2,500 by the time Biden took office. I still think Biden made a mistake by continuing to reduce the troop level from there, but I don't think that makes any difference in how the Taliban took over Afghanistan. Considering we were no longer involved in combat operation, it's hard for me to see how that made a substantial difference in the outcome. Just like it's hard for me to see how withdrawing from Bagram airfield made a substantial difference in the outcome (another popular claim). The only way for Biden to really have made any difference in this outcome was to reengage in combat operations and increase the troop level at the start of his administration. Something he was never going to do (unless necessary to evacuate, which we saw).

This shirt show is bad, it was always going to be bad. It would have been 100 times worse under Trump and his hapless administration.

The only thing I really believe is we should have started the civilian withdrawal sooner and in a more orderly fashion. By creating such a bottleneck to evacuate well over 100k people in less than a month we created chaos. The evacuation plan should have stretched over 90 days.
 

coldseat

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That backlog of Afghani visa applicants, are we getting those people out now? I assume they're probably largely included in the numbers we've already evacuated right? So if we're able to just go ahead and do it here at the end anyway once everything's gone to hell, it seems like had the Biden admin come into office with heightened urgency to push and deal with that situation left to them by the Trump admin, that maybe we wouldn't be having to coordinate and trust the Taliban in the way that we're having to now.

It was always going to end in disaster of some sort, I recognize that. I just contend that it didn't necessarily have to go down like this.

We all know what Pompeo and Trump did to the State department, it was well reported. They made a concerted effort to gut it and basically fill it with sycophants and reduce its effectiveness to ruble.

I don't know how long it takes to undo that, but I imagine it takes time. Given that the SIV program was at a complete stand still when they took office, I imagine this was one of their initial blind spots with all of the focus on Coronavirus and the Insurrection.

The incompetent schorched earth approach that the Trump administration took to our government has a long, devastating and lingering effects far beyond what many of us can fathom. It's nice to believe that Biden could fix all of that in 7 months and not make any mistakes along the way, but here we are. This is more reality hitting us in the face than anything. While it should be a wake up call for all as to the effects that one disastorous leader can cause on our country, it won't be.
 
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coldseat

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The only thing I really believe is we should have started the civilian withdrawal sooner and in a more orderly fashion. By creating such a bottleneck to evacuate well over 100k people in less than a month we created chaos. The evacuation plan should have stretched over 90 days.

I can't argue with you there.
 

bdb13

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I can't argue with you there.
He said it more succinctly but I think that's basically the same thing I'm trying to say as well.

Beyond that, it's stuff like the statement that Kabul was not in imminent danger and then seeing it fall two days later, or Biden's condescending butt crevasse response to George Stephanopoulos with the "come on that was four or five days ago" bit in reference to the horrible images that were actually from only for two days prior at that point that comes off.. not good.

But yes, more than anything it's the bottleneck that's been created that has put everyone in such danger that bothers me.
 

coldseat

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He said it more succinctly but I think that's basically the same thing I'm trying to say as well.

Beyond that, it's stuff like the statement that Kabul was not in imminent danger and then seeing it fall two days later, or Biden's condescending butt crevasse response to George Stephanopoulos with the "come on that was four or five days ago" bit in reference to the horrible images that were actually from only for two days prior at that point that comes off.. not good.

But yes, more than anything it's the bottleneck that's been created that has put everyone in such danger that bothers me.

No doubt. I'm not trying to deflect any criticism from the administration handling. There were concerns raised from members of Congress and other aid organizations that the SIV processing wasn't happening fast enough when something could have been done about it earlier. There was also concern form the military that the State department wasn't drawing down it's embassy and evacuating Americans fast enough once it became apparent that the Taliban was advancing quickly. So it's not like there was a total blindness on this. I just don't know how steadfastly the Biden administration was working on correcting the problems. I think by May the SIV process had sped up significantly, but clearly it wasn't enough.
 
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Saintman2884

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That being said, I do get it with the general feeling towards a lot of the criticism emanating from the right here. Screw most of them who've acted here like they give a shirt about the Afghans and the Afghans who've helped us. Gee wow, so these are the foreigners/refugees you give a fork about huh? Come the fork on, you don't and we know you obviously don't.

Wouldn't be a second thought to those Afghani lives by them if this was going down under Trump and the ones that would say otherwise are liars.

But this would no
We all know what Pompeo and Trump did to the State department, it was well reported. They made a concerted effort to gut it and basically fill it with sycophants and reduce its effectiveness to ruble.

I don't know how long it takes to undo that, but I imagine it take time. Given that the SIV program was at a complete stand still when they took office, I imagine this was one of their initial blind spots with all of the focus Coronavirus and the Insurrection.

The incompetent schorched earth approach that the Trump administration took to our government has a long, devastating and lingering effects far beyond what many of us can fathom. It's nice to believe that Biden could fix all of that in 7 months and not make any mistakes along the way, but here we are. This is more reality hitting us in the face than anything. While it should be a wake up call for all as to the effects that one disastorous leader can cause on our country, it won't be.
It probably was a scorched earth foreign policy job, but if it was "incompetent" it was criminally and intentionally incompetency. Which seems hyperbolic perhaps to some people, but I also believe that some Trump State or Defense department officials knew foreign policy has never been one of Biden's biggest strengths, he's developed a reputation over his career as a Senator and then Obama's VP as being overly skeptical, stubborn, unwilling to make potentially successful Black-Op raids decisions like Obama signed off an with the raid on Bin Laden's Abbotobad compound (Biden opposed it) 10 years ago.

Some more prescient Trump administration officials, likely Pompeo too, knew that the situation in Afghanistan would be a slow-burn then accelerating detiorating situation as Taliban advanced much further then Biden would assume with Afghani refugees, American and foreign nationals, correspondents applying for visas, and more then likely Biden would be so focused on the Insurrection investigation, handling the mass government-run coronavirus vaccine response, he might not notice it until its too late.

Trump and Pompeo and the MAGA cult are probably having this high-and-mighty attitude with liberal Democrats trying to scramble and salvage this situation and blame them like an everything going on is their fault, because it makes liberal Dems seem petty and trying to shift responsibility or blame shift these issues like its some black-and-white one-dimensional issue. They can also try and rearrange this implementation of the Afghani evacuation or withdrawal debacle as them trying to avoid responsibility, and its "all the other side's fault".
 

JRad

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The only thing I really believe is we should have started the civilian withdrawal sooner and in a more orderly fashion. By creating such a bottleneck to evacuate well over 100k people in less than a month we created chaos. The evacuation plan should have stretched over 90 days.
I agree ☝️
I recognize the withdrawal had already started, but the above is where my disappointment lies. Biden didn’t seem prepared for the worst. Or didn’t care because he just wanted out.
 

Saintman2884

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I agree ☝️
I recognize the withdrawal had already started, but the above is where my disappointment lies. Biden didn’t seem prepared for the worst. Or didn’t care because he just wanted out.
Or perhaps a combination of both. I do sincerely believe he, and most of his administration, were caught completely off-guard by the rapid military advances and elevated tactical capabilities of the Taliban, but if they were caught off-guard, it was due to the intense, challenging issues of combating and immunizing Americans against Coronavirus, preventing larger spike trends as related to more positive tests, trying to find some pretense or measure of common ground to get his massive infrastructure bill passed(which he did), and supporting a congressional investigatory committee on the Jan. 6 insurrection, its easy to see how Biden and his cabinet might take their collective eyes off the ball in regards to implementing a Afghani civilian/refugee withdrawal plan that didnt end with some disasters occuring.
 

coldseat

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I will say that even if the Biden administration made mistakes in not getting people out faster before the Afghan government/military collapse, I do believe they've made urgent and competent decisions since the situation became critical. I don't think you get 100,000+ people in a weeks time without doing so. This could have been so much worse and would definitely have been so if Trump were still in office.
 

insidejob

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I will say that even if the Biden administration made mistakes in not getting people out faster before the Afghan government/military collapse, I do believe they've made urgent and competent decisions since the situation became critical. I don't think you get 100,000+ people in a weeks time without doing so. This could have been so much worse and would definitely have been so if Trump were still in office.
No way would it have been worse with Trump at the helm. We'd have our special forces in Kabul right now with their Rambo Trump flags telling the Taliban to eff their feelings and killing everyone while magically evacuating everyone with zero American casualties because TFG has the best brain. With the best ideas. And, don't forget the most important part, his plans make everything great again.
 

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