Obviously, I am not conservative. I have been struggling with the way a lot of conservatives are responding to the election. I do not understand their willingness to go along with obvious lies by Trump sycophants at all, and their willingness to undermine a presidential election, and by doing so, undermine our very form of government. This thread is from a former conservative journalist, well, he’s still conservative I think, but has left his positions in traditional conservative organizations. It’s a long thread but fascinating.
Understanding The Conservative Mindset (1 Viewer)
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insidejob
"Trained Marxist"
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That's basically meant by saying leaders, plural. I was just too busy with work stuff to clarify further.
I mean politically. I want to live my life without fear of having accidentally broken some ridiculous law, or having some benign behavior suddenly made taboo and punishable by law. Or to have existing such laws removed like these stupid blue laws so that the involved parties can be free to do as they please - provided that they don't directly harm anyone.
And every now and then I get a masochistic streak and engage partisans like you for a while, but I'll eventually get bored with it like I get bored with some TV shows.
Liberals call me conservative because I support free markets, don't believe that supporting taxation makes one charitable, believe that minimum wage laws hurt far more than they help, don't support the vast majority of gun control laws, and want government out of Education and Healthcare because I believe they have completely destroyed these areas in their attempts to help.
Conservatives call me liberal because I want to end the drug war and decriminalize all drugs for all purposes, stop no-knock raids and civil asset forfeiture, want to "let" homosexuals get married if they want to, repeal the aforementioned blue laws, etc.
The second you rob another of their life¹, liberty, or property, you've committed a crime and are subject to punishment by the people by way of the state. I don't buy into "crimes against society". Society is people and their interactions - people make those rules organically. Making laws to regulate the things people can or can't do if they don't affect others in the ways I mentioned is an attempt to manipulate/shape society in a way the lawmakers envision and I reject that.
This puts me at odds with both sides of the 1-dimensional political spectrum, because they both want to be the guiding hand for society.
¹To include bodily injury or reasonable mental trauma²
²Getting "PTSD" from shooting an AR-15 at a gun range, for instance, doesn't count
I'm not as into politics as most of you guys, so I don't post a lot. I don't even lurk here too often. I follow it a little because I have to know at least a something, but I can't rattle off my favorite politicians like they're football players on my favorite team. I don't weep with joy when one side wins or become apoplectic when the other wins. Maybe I just live in a bubble. A stupid, selfish bubble!
I don't understand the vitriol involved and, from an outsider's perspective, I think both camps are nuts.
I also believe each feels like they're literally saving the world with their politics, and that the other side is doing the opposite. The NY Times article I linked resonated with me because it matches my perception of politics in this country.
The original point of this thread was to understand that Conservatives feel like they're on the side of righteousness, and it's true. It's also scary.
My original point was that Liberals/Progressives/Democratic Socialists/whatever feel the exact same way. Just because their beliefs aren't rooted in religion doesn't mean it's significantly different because the behaviors on the left and the right all tap into the same part of the brain.
That's impossible - I have psoriasis.
Also, since you went straight to the Ad Hominem, I'm going to go ahead and declare victory.
Would you mind elaborating on that for me?
insidejob
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Wasn't going ad hominen really in bad faith. Trust me, I know where you're coming from. I was a registered Republican who supported W both times but lost faith in the GOP because of the unnecessary wars and Cheney's profiting because of Haliburton. I now prefer to be registered as "no affiliation" but then I can't vote in the primaries.
The difference between the conservatives who feel they're on the side of righteousness and liberals/progressives/democratic socialists/whatever is that the left feels much more marginalized, and rightfully so, after the continued execution of black men on forking video year after year in "The Land of the Free." That's the kind of shirt that started groups like BLM and the ANTIFA ideology - and they were necessary under someone like Trump, and still will be under Biden. I was one of the few people on the old board who was a supporter of his from the beginning because he could actually beat Trump because he wouldn't be successfully labeled as a socialist/communist/whatever else they'd have called Warren or Sanders or whoever.
I didn't mean to come off so harsh in my reply. Politics have gotten the best of me lately. I apologize. You're good in my book regardless of who/what you support.
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MT15
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Denzien, I think POTUS qualifies as the power structure of the R party by now. And we don’t have any pushback from McConnell, Graham, Kennedy, etc. All of them are enabling his power grab by pretending there may have been enough voter fraud to overturn the election despite no evidence being offered. They have looked the other way during numerous money grabs by Trump, numerous ethical violations, and while he has openly used the DOJ as his personal law firm, rewarding cronies and pursuing political enemies.
I agree that extremism from either side is undesirable. I just cannot agree that at this point in history they are equally bad. One side is overachieving right now, imo.
And just on cue, I read that Trump Jr. and his girlfriend are moving to take over the RNC. That’s just great.
I agree that extremism from either side is undesirable. I just cannot agree that at this point in history they are equally bad. One side is overachieving right now, imo.
And just on cue, I read that Trump Jr. and his girlfriend are moving to take over the RNC. That’s just great.
DaveXA
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Denzien, I think POTUS qualifies as the power structure of the R party by now. And we don’t have any pushback from McConnell, Graham, Kennedy, etc. All of them are enabling his power grab by pretending there may have been enough voter fraud to overturn the election despite no evidence being offered. They have looked the other way during numerous money grabs by Trump, numerous ethical violations, and while he has openly used the DOJ as his personal law firm, rewarding cronies and pursuing political enemies.
I agree that extremism from either side is undesirable. I just cannot agree that at this point in history they are equally bad. One side is overachieving right now, imo.
And just on cue, I read that Trump Jr. and his girlfriend are moving to take over the RNC. That’s just great.
I don't think anyone here suggested they're equally bad. Potentially? Sure, but one is indeed worse right now. That much is clear.
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rajncajn
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I logged in just to give you a thumbs up. Every word resonated. It is frustrating and, at times, scary.
superchuck500
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When you're talking about an authoritarian executive, that person IS the authority. Medicine, science, law, philosophy, etc. have no intrinsic authority. Any divergence from the will of the authoritarian is illegitimate and subversive - and therefore must be suppressed. There cannot be divergence, only conformance.
Trump evidences this trait regularly. He touts science and law that supports his views. He dismisses, discredits, and even suppresses it when it diverges from his view.
insidejob
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From federal prison? Good luck with that.
SystemShock
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How dare you, Sir, not neatly fitting a label? Shame on you.
DaveXA
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What if he's actually a black, gay guy pretending to be a white, straight Republican and didn't realize he was on his fake account?
Just to be clear, the guy is an idiot for doing what he did. And he may not realize it, but there are a few actual black, gay Republicans out there. They're few, but they do actually exist, which makes what he did more dumb.
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V Chip
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Almost all of it, yeah I do.
I’ll try to expound more later when I have more time to do so.
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superchuck500
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More "Facebook Adventures with Trump-Conservatives":
This is my wife's friend from growing up, I know her quite well. She has a Masters in Psychology from a fairly well regarded state university. In more recent years, especially after a serious health scare with her second child (post-birth issue that did not resolve for several years), she has become very evangelical. And in those circles, she has become fully politicized and a strong Trump supporter.
Her: Posts what appears to be a Tik-Tok video of young adult male in a yellow safety vest in a nondescript white room happily showing paper to the camera that looks like ballots, marked as Trump votes, and then ripping them up. Her tagline says something to the effect of "Can't believe this is America #allvotescount" or similar. I just happened to see it within a couple minutes of her posting it. The post immediately gets two shares and a comment like "Disgusting! So blatant!"
Me: You don't honestly think that's credible do you?
Her: Yep. And I have seen others. But then again, I'm one of those people who will believe anything!" (This is a distorted reference to a conversation we had last week where I countered her "media censorship" with a comment about the fact that the right-wing media and social media base is so widespread and strong that it gets many in its audience to believe pure nonsense).
- - - So I fire up google and find the Politfact entry debunking it, which includes a statement from the man saying that he was just joking, he's actually an Amazon worker and he was just trying to get Tik-Tok views. He has since turned his account to private.
Me: Well that took all of six minutes of research: https://www.politifact.com/factchec...-show-election-worker-destroying-tr/?src=ilaw
Her: (Right away): Ha! I don't believe fact checker sites!
Me: How about basic common sense:
Clue #1: There is nothing to suggest this man is a genuine post office or election worker. He's not a nondescript vest on and it's a close up shot in a white room. There's nothing to evidence that he's actually doing what he says he's doing.
Clue#2: People don't typically post public videos of themselves committing simultaneous federal election, post, and property felonies along with various state crimes associated with the most high-profile public event in the world right now."
Her: Yes they do, people are stupid. But I agree that this one is fake, you're right. But there are others.
Me: Okay, can you share them and let's take a look.
Her: Not on Facebook.
Her: *deletes post
__________________________________
A few observations here. One, this person clearly has no quality filter. It was obvious to me at first glance that the video was highly suspect. She had no problem posting it with some disgusted comment - but even worse, backed it up by claiming to believe it was true when I questioned it.
Another is how quickly it was shared. It had two shares almost instantaneously and a third by the time she deleted it (maybe 15 minutes after posting it). Three shares of pure junk.
Then upon my presentation of a fairly well regarded fact checking site that included a statement from the man himself that it was just a joke for views her response is "I don't believe fact checker sites."
Finally, upon realizing that it actually was fake (she's not an unintelligent person after all), she claims to have other evidence that she can't share.
I don't care whether you're right or left, conservative or liberal, Trumper or Never-Trumper, information quality is essential to public debate and without quality information there can be no credibility.
Along with some other serious concerns, I think one of the most dangerous developments in the past decade has been the overall deterioration of both the quality of information that people use in the public discourse but also the degraded appreciation of even the need for quality information the first place . . . perhaps even a true inability to judge what information is quality and what isn't. It's frightening because it moves us away from a common reality, and that's where things get really precarious.
There are many reasons for this, including the merging of news media with opinion media, and the politicization of news no matter its source. I think that, coupled with the paradox of the information age (as volume of information increases, quality of information decreases) and the overall negative trend of education in America, are the primary factors that have influenced where we are right now.
This is my wife's friend from growing up, I know her quite well. She has a Masters in Psychology from a fairly well regarded state university. In more recent years, especially after a serious health scare with her second child (post-birth issue that did not resolve for several years), she has become very evangelical. And in those circles, she has become fully politicized and a strong Trump supporter.
Her: Posts what appears to be a Tik-Tok video of young adult male in a yellow safety vest in a nondescript white room happily showing paper to the camera that looks like ballots, marked as Trump votes, and then ripping them up. Her tagline says something to the effect of "Can't believe this is America #allvotescount" or similar. I just happened to see it within a couple minutes of her posting it. The post immediately gets two shares and a comment like "Disgusting! So blatant!"
Me: You don't honestly think that's credible do you?
Her: Yep. And I have seen others. But then again, I'm one of those people who will believe anything!" (This is a distorted reference to a conversation we had last week where I countered her "media censorship" with a comment about the fact that the right-wing media and social media base is so widespread and strong that it gets many in its audience to believe pure nonsense).
- - - So I fire up google and find the Politfact entry debunking it, which includes a statement from the man saying that he was just joking, he's actually an Amazon worker and he was just trying to get Tik-Tok views. He has since turned his account to private.
Me: Well that took all of six minutes of research: https://www.politifact.com/factchec...-show-election-worker-destroying-tr/?src=ilaw
Her: (Right away): Ha! I don't believe fact checker sites!
Me: How about basic common sense:
Clue #1: There is nothing to suggest this man is a genuine post office or election worker. He's not a nondescript vest on and it's a close up shot in a white room. There's nothing to evidence that he's actually doing what he says he's doing.
Clue#2: People don't typically post public videos of themselves committing simultaneous federal election, post, and property felonies along with various state crimes associated with the most high-profile public event in the world right now."
Her: Yes they do, people are stupid. But I agree that this one is fake, you're right. But there are others.
Me: Okay, can you share them and let's take a look.
Her: Not on Facebook.
Her: *deletes post
__________________________________
A few observations here. One, this person clearly has no quality filter. It was obvious to me at first glance that the video was highly suspect. She had no problem posting it with some disgusted comment - but even worse, backed it up by claiming to believe it was true when I questioned it.
Another is how quickly it was shared. It had two shares almost instantaneously and a third by the time she deleted it (maybe 15 minutes after posting it). Three shares of pure junk.
Then upon my presentation of a fairly well regarded fact checking site that included a statement from the man himself that it was just a joke for views her response is "I don't believe fact checker sites."
Finally, upon realizing that it actually was fake (she's not an unintelligent person after all), she claims to have other evidence that she can't share.
I don't care whether you're right or left, conservative or liberal, Trumper or Never-Trumper, information quality is essential to public debate and without quality information there can be no credibility.
Along with some other serious concerns, I think one of the most dangerous developments in the past decade has been the overall deterioration of both the quality of information that people use in the public discourse but also the degraded appreciation of even the need for quality information the first place . . . perhaps even a true inability to judge what information is quality and what isn't. It's frightening because it moves us away from a common reality, and that's where things get really precarious.
There are many reasons for this, including the merging of news media with opinion media, and the politicization of news no matter its source. I think that, coupled with the paradox of the information age (as volume of information increases, quality of information decreases) and the overall negative trend of education in America, are the primary factors that have influenced where we are right now.
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DaveXA
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Because of the work I do, I can't really post political stuff on my FB. Kinda sucks, but it is what it is. My wife unfortunately trusts her FB friends a bit too much. She forwarded these 2 things to me, and I asked he if she researched to fact check them and she said no. I told her, until you fact check them first, please don't send them to me or anyone else.
Study: Trump-Voting Counties Use More Opioids
The authors suggested that socioeconomic factors such as poverty were contributing factors.
www.newsweek.com
Saint by the Bay
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Study: Trump-Voting Counties Use More Opioids
The authors suggested that socioeconomic factors such as poverty were contributing factors.
It stands to reason. Opioid use is a bigger issue in rural America. Not that it's not an issue elsewhere, just much more prevalent there.
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