Tyre Nichols killing by Memphis police (1 Viewer)

[Lapaz]

I wanted to discuss the odd statistical anomaly about the races of the 5 cops that killed Tryre Nichols. I looked up the demographics of the Memphis police department, and 67% are white, 9% hispanic, and only 13% are black. That's only 89%, so I guess the rest are either a smaller racial group such as asians, or they didn't declare a race, in which case they are probably of mixed race. The 5 cops that were charged were all clearly black, not mixed race. I'm not a statistical expert, but I think the odds that all of the cops would be clearly black are 0.13^5, which is a 0.0037% chance of all cops being black, without any other intervening factors. It got me wondering about whether this extremely unlikely statistical anomaly could've happened without some type of internal Memphis policy. There could be other explanations, but I have a suspicion that it has to do with an internal decision within the Memphis police department to match the cop's race to the the suspect's race in order to try to avoid some of the racial bias claims that have been levied on other police departments. I haven't heard this anywhere, but I'm expecting this angle to be explored. If the Memphis police department is using such a policy, I blame it on our society making everything so racial that it is affecting how the police department decides to assign cops to avoid bad perceptions.

I'm also wondering if there will be claims that the cops were charged more quickly because they were black, whereas if the cops had been white, some may claim that they would not have been charged as quickly. Just after I wrote this, I heard a couple of blacks making this claim on the Dan Abrams Show. They were saying that they had never seen such quick charges, so it must be because they were black. I'm looking forward to seeing the videos, because maybe they were so egregious that any delays would've been an injustice. If so, then the Memphis police department deserves praise for acting quickly, rather than spinning it as a negative.

I'm also wondering how this incident would've been covered if the victim had been white, and all black cops. Maybe such an extremely unlikely scenario would've still been covered, but I have my doubts, because I've looked up the statistics, and more whites are killed by police than blacks, yet I don't remember the last white incident that was in the media. I know the demographics argument, but I think the problem is more of a media creation. I just heard a black lady on the Abrams show about how much more she has to be worried about her kid than a white lady. We may not even be hearing about this if the victim was white, and that over-coverage by the media is what creates the fear of cops in black mothers. Dan Abrams just told his callers that it is a media creation about black men being killed more often, but then he also went on to say that more blacks have unjustified interactions, which I think is also more of a media creation. I think the interactions are probably mostly based on suspicious actions, rather than race. Media over-coverage is the same reason that many people seem to believe that murder rates are much worse today than decades ago, despite the data indicating that murder rates have drastically declined.

 

[Lapaz]

To me this sure looks bad. A few points

- If he was under the influence of drugs they would know it by now and the information would surely have been made public. The Memphis PD would be looking at any kind of mitigating circumstances. As MTT writes desperate people feeling their lives being threatened will definitely have a high adrenalin level. I watched the video and it made me sick and he was definitely hit more than once before the kick, several of those hits were done while 2 men where holding him and others were doing the hitting.

- The total lack of help after the assault, and other police officers just standing by without trying to stop the violence. Just as in the Floyd killing, the observers did NOTHING to help in any way. To wait 20 minutes to call an ambulance after a beating like that is absolutely disgusting

It was definitely bad that they took too long to treat him once he was subdued. That will lead to firings too.

There may be more than 1 cop that threw punches. I can’t tell, but if so, then each cop that punched Nichols should be charged with assault. I also saw 2 kicks, not just 1, so the kicker or kickers should be charged with manslaughter. The others holding him should also be charged with assault. So the cops should be punished, but I also see a suspect that was complicit, which is why this probably doesn’t merit 2nd degree murder.

 

[bdb13]

It was bad, just not as bad as most are claiming. The suspect was obviously extremely hard to handle. Cops should still be able to handle that, but that may indicate pitiful training of these cops. Eventually the cops became abusive, but they didn’t resort to violence immediately, whereas many cops would’ve done worse quicker.

Man it is as bad as most are claiming, his resistance becomes largely inconsequential to what happens to him when he's no longer a legitimate threat to the officers' safety. They took out retribution on him and unnecessarily beat him to the point that he succumbed to the terrible injuries they unjustly caused.

I don't really get the distinction you're making, okay it could have been worse I guess if the officers had started in earlier or something.. it doesn't negate the fact that they did what they did which was unnecessarily kill the guy.

 

[brandon]

It was definitely bad that they took too long to treat him once he was subdued. That will lead to firings too.

There may be more than 1 cop that threw punches. I can’t tell, but if so, then each cop that punched Nichols should be charged with assault. I also saw 2 kicks, not just 1, so the kicker or kickers should be charged with manslaughter. The others holding him should also be charged with assault. So the cops should be punished, but I also see a suspect that was complicit, which is why this probably doesn’t merit 2nd degree murder.

They literally beat a man to death.

When someone is beating you to death, you generally try to resist that.

It was murder.

 

[bdb13]

They literally beat a man to death.

When someone is beating you to death, you generally try to resist that.

It was murder.

Right. THEY HELD HIM STILL SO THE OTHER OFFICER COULD COME OVER AND forkING KICK HIM IN THE HEAD!! Amongst other things they did to him.

This is contrarian for the sake of being contrarian.

 

[Lapaz]

They literally beat a man to death.

When someone is beating you to death, you generally try to resist that.

It was murder.

He was resisting and flailing for minutes in the first encounter, and I didn't see anyone hit him during the first encounter. They repeatedly warned him that they would taze him and spray him if he didn't lay flat, but he refused. Nichols was acting crazy and belligerent, and almost superhuman due to his reactions to the tazing. All of the beating took place after they caught him the second time, and were very frustrated that they had not been able to subdue him. Also, he died 3 days later, so they didn't beat him to death. They beat him, and he died later of unrevealed causes, but it is likely related to the beatings. That's not murder. That can and should be manslaughter for some and assault for others. If Nichols had been more compliant, he would be alive today. I see fault on both sides.

 

[Lapaz]

Right. THEY HELD HIM STILL SO THE OTHER OFFICER COULD COME OVER AND forkING KICK HIM IN THE HEAD!! Amongst other things they did to him.

This is contrarian for the sake of being contrarian.

No it's not contrarian. It's assessing the whole situation. The abuse you just cited happened after they caught him the second time. Before that they had tried to subdue him with non-violent methods. The cops at the first scene were different than the cops at the second scene. It was the latter that lost their composure, but by that point, it appeared that Nichols had attacked the cops at the first scene with the spray. I don't know if the cops at the 2nd scene realized that the spraying occurred when Nichols hit the spray can. In any event, there will be plenty more information in the coming days, and I think we'll learn about plenty of bad actions on both sides.

 

[Lapaz]

Man it is as bad as most are claiming, his resistance becomes largely inconsequential to what happens to him when he's no longer a legitimate threat to the officers' safety. They took out retribution on him and unnecessarily beat him to the point that he succumbed to the terrible injuries they unjustly caused.

I don't really get the distinction you're making, okay it could have been worse I guess if the officers had started in earlier or something.. it doesn't negate the fact that they did what they did which was unnecessarily kill the guy.

Yes, they took out retribution, and for that some will get jail time. Retribution is an important point. They were pissed at Nichols for his continued belligerence, and I think they thought he had attacked some cops at the first scene. The cops claimed he tried to grab their guns, and that might've been relayed to the cops at the 2nd scene. I also believe the cops said that he was driving against traffic, tried to hit the police cars by swerving into them, and repeatedly refused to pull over, in which case they might've also been pissed that he tried to use his vehicle as a weapon. It doesn't excuse the actions at the 2nd scene, but it makes it a heck of a lot more understandable.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Right. THEY HELD HIM STILL SO THE OTHER OFFICER COULD COME OVER AND forkING KICK HIM IN THE HEAD!! Amongst other things they did to him.

This is contrarian for the sake of being contrarian.

The one that got me was as they were holding him up, the office throws a punch from left field. That's the type of shirt you see thugs do.

 

[bdb13]

Yes, they took out retribution, and for that some will get jail time. Retribution is an important point. They were pissed at Nichols for his continued belligerence, and I think they thought he had attacked some cops at the first scene. The cops claimed he tried to grab their guns, and that might've been relayed to the cops at the 2nd scene. I also believe the cops said that he was driving against traffic, tried to hit the police cars by swerving into them, and repeatedly refused to pull over, in which case they might've also been pissed that he tried to use his vehicle as a weapon. It doesn't excuse the actions at the 2nd scene, but it makes it a heck of a lot more understandable.

I haven't claimed or implied that they just grabbed an entirely innocent guy off the streets and just decided to do this to him.. yes, that all may help us understand the background but it doesn't help me understand their decision(s) as officers of the law to brutally beat him without regard for his life.

We all know we have to control ourselves and that someone pissing us off or previously subjecting us to danger is not grounds to arbitrarily play judge, jury, and executioner.

 

[samiam5211]

I'll say it. They took a completely innocent guy off the street and did this.

There isn't any reason for us to believe the one cop's claim that he was driving erratically.

Even if he was, them pulling him from the car the way they did, eliminates any blame for anything Tyre did. He had a right to believe that his life was in danger from the start. He had a right to flee.

Once they pulled him from the car, this stopped being a legitimate police stop. He was clearly complying up to that point, because he had pulled over.

3 people shouting "give me your hands" isn't an instruction any of us could follow.

Even if he had taken one of their guns and shot one of them, it would not be acceptable to hold him up and beat him the way they did.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

I think y’all are not seeing the danger. The cops said he tried to grab their guns. This was not routine resistance. Nichols was flailing and twisting himself to avoid being cuffed. He was on the ground, but he had turned on to his side where he could be a threat. The cops must’ve told him to lay flat over 30 times. They kept telling him that they would taze him if he didn’t comply, and eventually did taze him. Nichols was belligerent and a threat.

I didn’t see 5 punches. I saw 1 punch to the stomach, 1 kick that appears to be to the head while he was on the ground (that’s the one that should lead to the worst charge), and 1 or 2 strikes to the body with a baton. By the way, it was after those 4 blows that they were finally able to subdue Nichols. Also all of this happened after he escaped the first time. During the first encounter, Nichols hit the cops that were macing him which caused the mace to hit a couple of cops. The cops also tazed him once on the ground and claimed that 1 lead of the tazor hit him again as he ran away from the first encounter, yet it had no effect. The cops had to be frustrated and resorted to more violent techniques. In such a situation, many cops would’ve shot him after attacking them and reaching for their guns. Nichols could’ve easily been killed on the spot, and there might’ve been justification.

The main blame is that there were enough cops there to subdue an elephant without abusing him, so they should’ve been able to subdue even a drugged out suspect. I expect some cops to be fired and the kicker to be charged with attempted murder, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the others get very reduced charges or even dropped.

The subsequent care is a different matter to assess. Nichols died days later, so an exam will be needed to determine how the treatment delays affected his death.

Edit: I re-watched the video this morning, and I counted 4 or 5 punches, rather than just the 1. I think that cop will be convicted of assault. The cop that kicked him in the head will probably get manslaughter. The others will be fired and possibly accessories to the manslaughter.

Let me see. Nichols is dead and the only injuries the cops have are a bad foot from kicking Nichols and a bad hand from punching Niichols. Now you tell me who was in danger?

 

[MT15]

This is a bit ghoulish:

 

[Saintamaniac]

No it's not contrarian. It's assessing the whole situation. The abuse you just cited happened after they caught him the second time. Before that they had tried to subdue him with non-violent methods. The cops at the first scene were different than the cops at the second scene. It was the latter that lost their composure, but by that point, it appeared that Nichols had attacked the cops at the first scene with the spray. I don't know if the cops at the 2nd scene realized that the spraying occurred when Nichols hit the spray can. In any event, there will be plenty more information in the coming days, and I think we'll learn about plenty of bad actions on both sides.

I'm wondering if you'd be willing to change your stance if some of the rumors that are circulating turn out to be true, namely the rumor that Nichols was sleeping with one of the killers' wife. The Chief of Police even stated that she saw no legitmate reason for the stop. Will you end your excuse making for this murder if it turns out that this was nothing more than a revenge killing?

 

[Taurus]

What I can't understand is why normal cops are allowing a system to form whose logical conclusion is open season on LEOs.
How many George Floyds and Tyre's does the nation need to see before it becomes the case that *any* interaction between a citizen and the cops is a case of reasonable fear for your life?
"I heard the sirens and slowed down, then they pulled me over."
"And it was at this point, Mr Smith, that you began to fear for your life, correct?"
"You damn right. You see that Tyre footage? May as well be getting stopped by the Klan or a cartel."
"What happened then?"
"I pulled my 6.5 Creedmoore from under the passenger side and started shooting. I wasn't goin' out like that, choked and beaten, spend hours in agony just to die. Eff *that* noise. You know they don't even call for an ambulance? Dudes are straight up monsters in uniform."
"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, it's clear my client was in fear for his life, in mortal terror as any of us would be. Except you of course, Bailiff Murphy."

 

[bdb13]

What I can't understand is why normal cops are allowing a system to form whose logical conclusion is open season on LEOs.
How many George Floyds and Tyre's does the nation need to see before it becomes the case that *any* interaction between a citizen and the cops is a case of reasonable fear for your life?
"I heard the sirens and slowed down, then they pulled me over."
"And it was at this point, Mr Smith, that you began to fear for your life, correct?"
"You damn right. You see that Tyre footage? May as well be getting stopped by the Klan or a cartel."
"What happened then?"
"I pulled my 6.5 Creedmoore from under the passenger side and started shooting. I wasn't goin' out like that, choked and beaten, spend hours in agony just to die. Eff *that* noise. You know they don't even call for an ambulance? Dudes are straight up monsters in uniform."
"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, it's clear my client was in fear for his life, in mortal terror as any of us would be. Except you of course, Bailiff Murphy."

Clear case of "stand your ground."

 

[Lapaz]

I'm wondering if you'd be willing to change your stance if some of the rumors that are circulating turn out to be true, namely the rumor that Nichols was sleeping with one of the killers' wife. The Chief of Police even stated that she saw no legitmate reason for the stop. Will you end your excuse making for this murder if it turns out that this was nothing more than a revenge killing?

I haven’t heard those rumors, but that sounds like nonsense. The cops that stopped him initially didn’t hit him. If he had complied, he’d be alive. If there is evidence of a revenge killing, it would be from the second group of cops. How would they have arranged that killing? Would they have planned for him to not comply and escape after being tazed? That seems far-fetched.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

From Sacramento to Memphis, Tyre Nichols Cut His Own Path

Social media posts show that Mr. Nichols harbored a mistrust of prevailing government and economic systems, yet, a friend says, he also considered trying to change policing from the inside.

www.nytimes.com

Before Tyre Nichols moved to Memphis — before he was brutally beaten on a Saturday night by police officers there — he lived in California, in the Sacramento area, where he hung out with a crowd of skateboarders.

They were a pack of teenage nonconformists. “Our friend group, we were a bunch of little rebels,” said Angelina Paxton, one of Mr. Nichols’s closest friends in Sacramento. But Mr. Nichols, she said, tended to be the voice warning them away from confrontation and serious trouble.

“If anything, he was the one in the back saying, ‘Come on, guys,’” Ms. Paxton recalled. “He was chill. He was peaceful. He was laid back.”

Mr. Nichols, she also said, was wary, as a Black man, of the police. His social media posts show that he identified with the Black Lives Matter movement and harbored a mistrust of prevailing government and economic systems.

And yet recently, Ms. Paxton said, Mr. Nichols had considered becoming a police officer.

“He was talking about how maybe that would be the easiest way to change things in the system — by becoming the system,” she said.

=================================================

I have to say, without knowing, that Mr. Nichols seemed pretty chilled originally to me during the event that led to his death. Yes, he didn't want to be cuffed at first but his comments to the police originally were those of a very puzzled, but controlled and chilled man.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

I haven’t heard those rumors, but that sounds like nonsense. The cops that stopped him initially didn’t hit him. If he had complied, he’d be alive. If there is evidence of a revenge killing, it would be from the second group of cops. How would they have arranged that killing? Would they have planned for him to not comply and escape after being tazed? That seems far-fetched.

What makes you think that none of the officers who pulled him over were part of the group of officers that beat him? I haven't seen that pointed out one way or the other.