Tyre Nichols killing by Memphis police (1 Viewer)

[Lapaz]

I wanted to discuss the odd statistical anomaly about the races of the 5 cops that killed Tryre Nichols. I looked up the demographics of the Memphis police department, and 67% are white, 9% hispanic, and only 13% are black. That's only 89%, so I guess the rest are either a smaller racial group such as asians, or they didn't declare a race, in which case they are probably of mixed race. The 5 cops that were charged were all clearly black, not mixed race. I'm not a statistical expert, but I think the odds that all of the cops would be clearly black are 0.13^5, which is a 0.0037% chance of all cops being black, without any other intervening factors. It got me wondering about whether this extremely unlikely statistical anomaly could've happened without some type of internal Memphis policy. There could be other explanations, but I have a suspicion that it has to do with an internal decision within the Memphis police department to match the cop's race to the the suspect's race in order to try to avoid some of the racial bias claims that have been levied on other police departments. I haven't heard this anywhere, but I'm expecting this angle to be explored. If the Memphis police department is using such a policy, I blame it on our society making everything so racial that it is affecting how the police department decides to assign cops to avoid bad perceptions.

I'm also wondering if there will be claims that the cops were charged more quickly because they were black, whereas if the cops had been white, some may claim that they would not have been charged as quickly. Just after I wrote this, I heard a couple of blacks making this claim on the Dan Abrams Show. They were saying that they had never seen such quick charges, so it must be because they were black. I'm looking forward to seeing the videos, because maybe they were so egregious that any delays would've been an injustice. If so, then the Memphis police department deserves praise for acting quickly, rather than spinning it as a negative.

I'm also wondering how this incident would've been covered if the victim had been white, and all black cops. Maybe such an extremely unlikely scenario would've still been covered, but I have my doubts, because I've looked up the statistics, and more whites are killed by police than blacks, yet I don't remember the last white incident that was in the media. I know the demographics argument, but I think the problem is more of a media creation. I just heard a black lady on the Abrams show about how much more she has to be worried about her kid than a white lady. We may not even be hearing about this if the victim was white, and that over-coverage by the media is what creates the fear of cops in black mothers. Dan Abrams just told his callers that it is a media creation about black men being killed more often, but then he also went on to say that more blacks have unjustified interactions, which I think is also more of a media creation. I think the interactions are probably mostly based on suspicious actions, rather than race. Media over-coverage is the same reason that many people seem to believe that murder rates are much worse today than decades ago, despite the data indicating that murder rates have drastically declined.

 

[Lapaz]

The video is out and they are clearly and absolutely guilty of murder.

I don’t think it is that clear cut. They couldn’t subdue Tyree even with tasers. I’ve been tased, and it knocked me out. It didn’t seem to faze Tyree. He may have been on a drug that made him handle it. They kept asking him to lay flat, but he kept refusing and resisting. 3 or 4 cops couldn’t subdue him, even with mace.

They continued to struggle with hlm, and I saw one cop kick him in the face while he struggled. Later another hit with a stick, and another punched him on the gut. Clearly they should’ve been able to subdue a normal person, but nothing was working before they resorted to the violence after several minutes of struggling.

The main thing I saw was incompetence, because 3 or 4 cops should’ve been able to subdue Nichols. Also, Nichols died 3 days later in the hospital, presumably from injuries sustained. However if he was on a drug, that may be the cause, even indirectly due to making him feel less pain.

I would not be surprised if some of these cops are acquitted of at least the worst of the charges. They said Nichols was supposedly driving wildly against traffic, and then his subsequent actions imply he was not innocent. I see fault on both sides, but I definitely see mitigating factors that will help the cops.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Two deputies who were at the scene have been suspended.

 

[bdb13]

I don’t think it is that clear cut. They couldn’t subdue Tyree even with tasers. I’ve been tased, and it knocked me out. It didn’t seem to faze Tyree. He may have been on a drug that made him handle it. They kept asking him to lay flat, but he kept refusing and resisting. 3 or 4 cops couldn’t subdue him, even with mace.

They continued to struggle with hlm, and I saw one cop kick him in the face while he struggled. Later another hit with a stick, and another punched him on the gut. Clearly they should’ve been able to subdue a normal person, but nothing was working before they resorted to the violence after several minutes of struggling.

The main thing I saw was incompetence, because 3 or 4 cops should’ve been able to subdue Nichols. Also, Nichols died 3 days later in the hospital, presumably from injuries sustained. However if he was on a drug, that may be the cause, even indirectly due to making him feel less pain.

I would not be surprised if some of these cops are acquitted of at least the worst of the charges. They said Nichols was supposedly driving wildly against traffic, and then his subsequent actions imply he was not innocent. I see fault on both sides, but I definitely see mitigating factors that will help the cops.

Did you not see the two officers hold him for the other to come over and kick him?

His resistance does not justify any of what I saw.

 

[Lapaz]

Did you not see the two officers hold him for the other to come over and kick him?

His resistance does not justify any of what I saw.

I think the cops are guilty of excessive force, but they tried non-violent methods to subdue Nichols for several minutes. That kick came after a struggle using non-violent methods that should’ve been able to subdue a normal person. I’m looking forward to drug tests in his system. I think there will be mitigating circumstances that will lead to reduced charges.

 

[bdb13]

I think the cops are guilty of excessive force, but they tried non-violent methods to subdue Nichols for several minutes. That kick came after a struggle using non-violent methods that should’ve been able to subdue a normal person. I’m looking forward to drug tests in his system. I think there will be mitigating circumstances that will lead to reduced charges.

Don't want to but I'll have watch it again because I wasn't looking so much for his resistance.. but regardless and going with that, the methods they used to subdue him were extraordinarily excessive and brutal. There's no way they had to do that, absolutely no way.. I watched them mercilessly beat the forking shirt out of a mostly defenseless person.

Was he cuffed? I thought he was but not sure.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

Don't want to but I'll have watch it again because I wasn't looking so much for his resistance.. but regardless and going with that, the methods they used to subdue him were extraordinarily excessive and brutal. There's no way they had to do that, absolutely no way.. I watched them mercilessly beat the forking shirt out of a mostly defenseless person.

Was he cuffed? I thought he was but not sure.

He was cuffed when they sucker-punched him in the head and face about 5 times. He was cuffed when they kicked him. At first, when they kept telling him to lie down, he WAS down on the ground. And then they did nothing, after they beat him, to help him. Nothing! No medical assistance at all for about ten to 15 minutes.

 

[bdb13]

Don't want to but I'll have watch it again because I wasn't looking so much for his resistance.. but regardless and going with that, the methods they used to subdue him were extraordinarily excessive and brutal. There's no way they had to do that, absolutely no way.. I watched them mercilessly beat the forking shirt out of a mostly defenseless person.

Was he cuffed? I thought he was but not sure.

Just wanted to add that while it's obviously not smart to resist the police, resistance on its own isn't justification for use of lethal force. It calls for doing what's necessary to reasonably subdue the subject, yes, but it doesn't call for going beyond what's necessary and I can't see how one could argue that they didn't go well beyond what was necessary after witnessing that video.

 

[brandon]

I don’t think it is that clear cut. They couldn’t subdue Tyree even with tasers. I’ve been tased, and it knocked me out. It didn’t seem to faze Tyree. He may have been on a drug that made him handle it. They kept asking him to lay flat, but he kept refusing and resisting. 3 or 4 cops couldn’t subdue him, even with mace.

They continued to struggle with hlm, and I saw one cop kick him in the face while he struggled. Later another hit with a stick, and another punched him on the gut. Clearly they should’ve been able to subdue a normal person, but nothing was working before they resorted to the violence after several minutes of struggling.

The main thing I saw was incompetence, because 3 or 4 cops should’ve been able to subdue Nichols. Also, Nichols died 3 days later in the hospital, presumably from injuries sustained. However if he was on a drug, that may be the cause, even indirectly due to making him feel less pain.

I would not be surprised if some of these cops are acquitted of at least the worst of the charges. They said Nichols was supposedly driving wildly against traffic, and then his subsequent actions imply he was not innocent. I see fault on both sides, but I definitely see mitigating factors that will help the cops.

This kind of excuse-making is why police brutality continues to plague this country.

 

[J-DONK]

This kind of excuse-making is why police brutality continues to plague this country.

It's wild. It's interesting that these excuses are wrapped around the idea of subduing vs endangerment of life. Were the cops life's in endanger? No, then why are they beating the man?

America has something like 30x the use of deadly force by LEO vs Europe.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

He was cuffed when they sucker-punched him in the head and face about 5 times. He was cuffed when they kicked him. At first, when they kept telling him to lie down, he WAS down on the ground. And then they did nothing, after they beat him, to help him. Nothing! No medical assistance at all for about ten to 15 minutes.

Apparently he wasn't cuffed during the actions by police that I describe, but his hands were being held in some fashion behind his back. In other words he was helpless and as J-DONK posted no danger to the police.

 

[Lapaz]

Apparently he wasn't cuffed during the actions by police that I describe, but his hands were being held in some fashion behind his back. In other words he was helpless and as J-DONK posted no danger to the police.

I think y’all are not seeing the danger. The cops said he tried to grab their guns. This was not routine resistance. Nichols was flailing and twisting himself to avoid being cuffed. He was on the ground, but he had turned on to his side where he could be a threat. The cops must’ve told him to lay flat over 30 times. They kept telling him that they would taze him if he didn’t comply, and eventually did taze him. Nichols was belligerent and a threat.

I didn’t see 5 punches. I saw 1 punch to the stomach, 1 kick that appears to be to the head while he was on the ground (that’s the one that should lead to the worst charge), and 1 or 2 strikes to the body with a baton. By the way, it was after those 4 blows that they were finally able to subdue Nichols. Also all of this happened after he escaped the first time. During the first encounter, Nichols hit the cops that were macing him which caused the mace to hit a couple of cops. The cops also tazed him once on the ground and claimed that 1 lead of the tazor hit him again as he ran away from the first encounter, yet it had no effect. The cops had to be frustrated and resorted to more violent techniques. In such a situation, many cops would’ve shot him after attacking them and reaching for their guns. Nichols could’ve easily been killed on the spot, and there might’ve been justification.

The main blame is that there were enough cops there to subdue an elephant without abusing him, so they should’ve been able to subdue even a drugged out suspect. I expect some cops to be fired and the kicker to be charged with attempted murder, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the others get very reduced charges or even dropped.

The subsequent care is a different matter to assess. Nichols died days later, so an exam will be needed to determine how the treatment delays affected his death.

Edit: I re-watched the video this morning, and I counted 4 or 5 punches, rather than just the 1. I think that cop will be convicted of assault. The cop that kicked him in the head will probably get manslaughter. The others will be fired and possibly accessories to the manslaughter.

 

[Lapaz]

This kind of excuse-making is why police brutality continues to plague this country.

I think you’re making grand generalizations. There are probably over a million police encounters annually without abuse. Almost without exception, the abuse happens when the suspect acts dangerously and belligerent. This country is more dangerous than any other advanced country due to our culture, so that is also a factor. Cops in this country probably do their job far better than you give them credit for.

 

[MT15]

I will not be watching the video, but I’ve read some opinions. I read that the “he went for your gun” was offered after the fact as they seem to be trying to getting their stories straight. I read that police escalated the situation immediately, and gave contradictory demands, I read that Nichols was clearly terrified and calling for his mother. I read the opinion that he seemed to be attempting to curl up in a ball as a defense against the beating, which is a natural reaction. Try to lay flat while being beaten, it’s not possible.

So many times, when a person is clearly under an adrenaline surge (fight or flight) tasers don’t have the intended effect. He may have been on drugs, but adrenaline alone could cause this.

Okay, so when do we acknowledge that when human beings get into a situation they perceive as posing peril to their lives, they do things that look unusual to people not in the situation? This goes for the cops and the victim. But in this situation, the cops far outnumbered him, they are supposed to be trained to de-escalate potentially violent situations, and supposed to be experienced in how to conduct themselves in chaos. Clearly, none of that happened and a man died. The cops lost control of the situation badly. They lost control of themselves and killed a man.

Blaming the victim, and speculating that this happened because he was on drugs, or excusing the inappropriate responses from trained professionals is not helpful. They clearly didn’t treat him like a person, a citizen. They treated him as if he were an animal.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

I think y’all are not seeing the danger. The cops said he tried to grab their guns. This was not routine resistance. Nichols was flailing and twisting himself to avoid being cuffed. He was on the ground, but he had turned on to his side where he could be a threat. The cops must’ve told him to lay flat over 30 times. They kept telling him that they would taze him if he didn’t comply, and eventually did taze him. Nichols was belligerent and a threat.

I didn’t see 5 punches. I saw 1 punch to the stomach, 1 kick that appears to be to the head while he was on the ground (that’s the one that should lead to the worst charge), and 1 or 2 strikes to the body with a baton. By the way, it was after those 4 blows that they were finally able to subdue Nichols. Also all of this happened after he escaped the first time. During the first encounter, Nichols hit the cops that were macing him which caused the mace to hit a couple of cops. The cops also tazed him once on the ground and claimed that 1 lead of the tazor hit him again as he ran away from the first encounter, yet it had no effect. The cops had to be frustrated and resorted to more violent techniques. In such a situation, many cops would’ve shot him after attacking them and reaching for their guns. Nichols could’ve easily been killed on the spot, and there might’ve been justification.

The main blame is that there were enough cops there to subdue an elephant without abusing him, so they should’ve been able to subdue even a drugged out suspect. I expect some cops to be fired and the kicker to be charged with attempted murder, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the others get very reduced charges or even dropped.

The subsequent care is a different matter to assess. Nichols died days later, so an exam will be needed to determine how the treatment delays affected his death.

Then I would suggest you go re-watch the video, especially from the camera pole angle.

And cops say a lot of stuff to justify their actions once they realize the cameras are running. Several former LEOs started as such on multiple networks.

 

[Lapaz]

I will not be watching the video, but I’ve read some opinions. I read that the “he went for your gun” was offered after the fact as they seem to be trying to getting their stories straight. I read that police escalated the situation immediately, and gave contradictory demands, I read that Nichols was clearly terrified and calling for his mother. I read the opinion that he seemed to be attempting to curl up in a ball as a defense against the beating, which is a natural reaction. Try to lay flat while being beaten, it’s not possible.

So many times, when a person is clearly under an adrenaline surge (fight or flight) tasers don’t have the intended effect. He may have been on drugs, but adrenaline alone could cause this.

Okay, so when do we acknowledge that when human beings get into a situation they perceive as posing peril to their lives, they do things that look unusual to people not in the situation? This goes for the cops and the victim. But in this situation, the cops far outnumbered him, they are supposed to be trained to de-escalate potentially violent situations, and supposed to be experienced in how to conduct themselves in chaos. Clearly, none of that happened and a man died. The cops lost control of the situation badly. They lost control of themselves and killed a man.

Blaming the victim, and speculating that this happened because he was on drugs, or excusing the inappropriate responses from trained professionals is not helpful. They clearly didn’t treat him like a person, a citizen. They treated him as if he were an animal.

Some of what you said didn’t happen. You need to watch it to see for yourself. If you’ve seen violent movies, then you’ve seen worse.

 

[Dragon]

To me this sure looks bad. A few points

- If he was under the influence of drugs they would know it by now and the information would surely have been made public. The Memphis PD would be looking at any kind of mitigating circumstances. As MTT writes desperate people feeling their lives being threatened will definitely have a high adrenalin level. I watched the video and it made me sick and he was definitely hit more than once before the kick, several of those hits were done while 2 men where holding him and others were doing the hitting.

- The total lack of help after the assault, and other police officers just standing by without trying to stop the violence. Just as in the Floyd killing, the observers did NOTHING to help in any way. To wait 20 minutes to call an ambulance after a beating like that is absolutely disgusting

 

[Lapaz]

Then I would suggest you go re-watch the video, especially from the camera pole angle.

And cops say a lot of stuff to justify their actions once they realize the cameras are running. Several former LEOs started as such on multiple networks.

Yeah, even cops are piling on, because most are afraid of the backlash. I just watched Smerconish, and I pretty much agree with his assessment. It’s the first and only nuanced assessment I’ve seen. I think almost everyone else is acting like lemmings.

 

[Lapaz]

To me this sure looks bad. A few points

- If he was under the influence of drugs they would know it by now and the information would surely have been made public. The Memphis PD would be looking at any kind of mitigating circumstances. As MTT writes desperate people feeling their lives being threatened will definitely have a high adrenalin level. I watched the video and it made me sick and he was definitely hit more than once before the kick, several of those hits were done while 2 men where holding him and others were doing the hitting.

- The total lack of help after the assault, and other police officers just standing by without trying to stop the violence. Just as in the Floyd killing, the observers did NOTHING to help in any way. To wait 20 minutes to call an ambulance after a beating like that is absolutely disgusting

It was bad, just not as bad as most are claiming. The suspect was obviously extremely hard to handle. Cops should still be able to handle that, but that may indicate pitiful training of these cops. Eventually the cops became abusive, but they didn’t resort to violence immediately, whereas many cops would’ve done worse quicker.