Trump Election Interference / Falsification of Business Records Criminal Trial (1 Viewer)

[MT15]

I couldn’t find a thread just about this case, and thought we should have one since it’s Trump’s first criminal trial. He has to attend every day, as I understand it. Here is a quick reminder of what it’s about. His former lawyer Michael Cohen already went to prison for his involvement in this case.

 

[SaintForLife]

It is accurate as stated - but I wouldn’t take any conclusion from it because it misses what is actually happening.

He’s not charged with “conspiracy to suppress politically damaging information” but what he is charged with are 34 felony counts of falsifying business records with intent to defraud and intent to commit another crime and aid and conceal in the commission thereof.

It is that part that (a) makes them felony counts under NY law and (b) makes relevant the context of the reason why the records were falsified. I believe that there are a few different election laws alleged to be violated, for example under New York and federal election laws, campaign expenditures and their sources must be tracked and reported.

So the prosecution is establishing that the payments were very much indeed a function of Trump’s campaign - without the campaign, there wouldn’t have been the payments. But the payments were made with various procedures designed to conceal them violation of election law and the course of doing so, business records were falsified under New York law.

It’s not a conspiracy case - but because the case requires connecting the two crimes, it is prosecuted as a single narrative. It comes off sounding like a conspiracy case but it isn’t.

Reposting this as a response and as a question to you:

I looked at the indictment and every charge is Falsifying business records in the 1st degree.

Falsifying business records in NY is a misdemeanor and the statute of limitations ran out in 2019.

It can be upgraded to a felony to falsify business records if you also have the intent to further or conceal another criminal offense and the statute of limitations is for 5 years and it ran out in 2022. They were only able to charge Trump in 2023 because NY extended their statute of limitations due to Covid.

What's the other criminal offense that is alleged? Election Interference? He's not charged with that.

 

[superchuck500]

Reposting this as a response and as a question to you:

I looked at the indictment and every charge is Falsifying business records in the 1st degree.

Falsifying business records in NY is a misdemeanor and the statute of limitations ran out in 2019.

It can be upgraded to a felony to falsify business records if you also have the intent to further or conceal another criminal offense and the statute of limitations is for 5 years and it ran out in 2022. They were only able to charge Trump in 2023 because NY extended their statute of limitations due to Covid.

What's the other criminal offense that is alleged? Election Interference? He's not charged with that.

He doesn’t have to be charged with the other crime - only that it was part of the intent. In other words, the intent included conduct that violated election law . . . but he doesn’t have to also be charged with those crimes.

It is similar to the felony murder charge: the defendant can be charged with felony murder if the defendant has killed someone while participating in conduct that is an applicable felony under the felony murder law. The state doesn’t have to first charge and convict on the underlying felony.

I’m sure that the prosecutors laid all of this out in the opening statement and pre trial filings. Perhaps we can pull them from the docket to be more precise.

 

[FullMonte]

What's the other criminal offense that is alleged? Election Interference? He's not charged with that.

That's literally like saying "they can't charge him with attempted murder, he didn't murder anyone and isn't charged with murdering anyone."

Here is what the law says, verbatim: "....and when his intent to defraud includes an intent to commit another crime or conceal the commission thereof." So, simply falsifying his business records because they INTENDED to commit another crime upgrades the charge to a felony.

 

[MT15]

You guys are so patient. Kudos.

 

[LA - L.A.]

What's the other criminal offense that is alleged?

Asked and answered by several posters above.

What this post shows is that reality is starting to set in with MAGA that Trump is at serious risk of being convicted, especially after this weeks testimony from Pecker and Hicks.

Not being able to accept that reality, they are...

...with their denial.

 

[Lapaz]

I looked at the indictment and every charge is Falsifying business records in the 1st degree.

Falsifying business records in NY is a misdemeanor and the statute of limitations ran out in 2019.

It can be upgraded to a felony to falsify business records if you also have the intent to further or conceal another criminal offense and the statute of limitations is for 5 years and it ran out in 2022. They were only able to charge Trump in 2023 because NY extended their statute of limitations due to Covid.

What's the other criminal offense that is alleged? Election Interference? He's not charged with that.

I believe there are 2 other unstated crimes. One of the crimes could be exceeding the amount that can be donated to a campaign, because $150k is way past the limit for state and federal. Another crime could be state and federal tax fraud since I believe Trump claimed he paid Cohen twice as much ($300k) as he did in “legal” fees.

 

[superchuck500]

 

[efil4]

In the event of subsequent contempt violations, if Judge Merchan issues jail time, but decides to rule his time to be served post-trial ( to avoid trial delays ) he will have to announce at that time, right?

 

[fooferdoggie]

In the event of subsequent contempt violations, if Judge Merchan issues jail time, but decides to rule his time to be served post-trial ( to avoid trial delays ) he will have to announce at that time, right?

or will he appeal it as soon as it happens and delay it?

 

[superchuck500]

In the event of subsequent contempt violations, if Judge Merchan issues jail time, but decides to rule his time to be served post-trial ( to avoid trial delays ) he will have to announce at that time, right?

I'm not sure - there's additional details that relate to jailing Trump that aren't part of the normal considerations. Normally, a criminal defendant being jailed during the trial doesn't cause a delay - they're simply now in custody instead of being out on bond. Going to jail on contempt during trial is not the same as going to prison. It is through whatever the court's holding/jail process is. A trial judge can hold a defendant in contempt and placed in custody - but apart from the intake process, everything else moves like a trial with a defendant in custody . . . and that's certainly not uncommon.

But with Trump and security and whatnot, I wouldn't be surprised if the judge were to have to take other measures before ordering jail. Some kind of house arrest with a no-social media order. Hopefully Trump doesn't violate it anymore but it's certainly possible or even likely that as it goes closer to the end and he gets more and more anxious, he will probably violate it.

 

[efil4]

I'm not sure - there's additional details that relate to jailing Trump that aren't part of the normal considerations. Normally, a criminal defendant being jailed during the trial doesn't cause a delay - they're simply now in custody instead of being out on bond. Going to jail on contempt during trial is not the same as going to prison. It is through whatever the court's holding/jail process is. A trial judge can hold a defendant in contempt and placed in custody - but apart from the intake process, everything else moves like a trial with a defendant in custody . . . and that's certainly not uncommon.

But with Trump and security and whatnot, I wouldn't be surprised if the judge were to have to take other measures before ordering jail. Some kind of house arrest with a no-social media order. Hopefully Trump doesn't violate it anymore but it's certainly possible or even likely that as it goes closer to the end and he gets more and more anxious, he will probably violate it.

"Normally" for folks like me. Unknown, unfamous etc lol. My trial would probably get fast tracked lol.

I had listened to a prosecutor bring up the "post trial" detention in regards to this trial because he felt any sort of detention during trial will cause some disturbances and allow for the "unfair" narrative to continue, even ramp up.

And yes i agree with the last part, as things begin to wind down, closing arguments etc and the stark reality sets in, i suspect that, sans someone taking his phone/tablet/computer, he will most likely lash out. I suspect he might do during Cohen testimony.

 

[DaveXA]

I'm not sure - there's additional details that relate to jailing Trump that aren't part of the normal considerations. Normally, a criminal defendant being jailed during the trial doesn't cause a delay - they're simply now in custody instead of being out on bond. Going to jail on contempt during trial is not the same as going to prison. It is through whatever the court's holding/jail process is. A trial judge can hold a defendant in contempt and placed in custody - but apart from the intake process, everything else moves like a trial with a defendant in custody . . . and that's certainly not uncommon.

But with Trump and security and whatnot, I wouldn't be surprised if the judge were to have to take other measures before ordering jail. Some kind of house arrest with a no-social media order. Hopefully Trump doesn't violate it anymore but it's certainly possible or even likely that as it goes closer to the end and he gets more and more anxious, he will probably violate it.

I think he wants the judge to incarcerate him. In his mind, this would galvanize his supporters and another avenue to fleece his supporters out of their money. I'd bet my house that he'll violate the gag order again and dare the judge to do something about it.

 

[fooferdoggie]

I think he wants the judge to incarcerate him. In his mind, this would galvanize his supporters and another avenue to fleece his supporters out of their money. I'd bet my house that he'll violate the gag order again and dare the judge to do something about it.

but once he gets it he is going to hate it like no enter. that wil be good make him afraid of jail.

 

[MT15]

I think he wants the judge to incarcerate him. In his mind, this would galvanize his supporters and another avenue to fleece his supporters out of their money. I'd bet my house that he'll violate the gag order again and dare the judge to do something about it.

I agree that he will violate it. But it’s hard to say if he has that amount of political cunning, or if he is simply so far gone psychologically that he cannot stop himself. I don’t think he has much, if any, self-control verbally.

 

[efil4]

I agree that he will violate it. But it’s hard to say if he has that amount of political cunning, or if he is simply so far gone psychologically that he cannot stop himself. I don’t think he has much, if any, self-control verbally.

I dont think its cunning in the "smart sense" - i think it gins up his supporters that will "chant his name" at rallys- THATS what gets him off. Its the adoration of 1000s that fills that black hole in the center of his soul.

 

[FullMonte]

Something I haven’t seen mentioned, and it just occurred to me. Perhaps it was discussed earlier and I missed it.

Michael Cohen has copies of the checks he was issued in 2017 reimbursing him
For the Stormy Daniels payment. Some are signed by Trump and some are signed by Don Jr.

Why was Donald Trump, the president of the United States, who had placed his businesses in a revocable trust, signing checks from that company?

 

[DaveXA]

Something I haven’t seen mentioned, and it just occurred to me. Perhaps it was discussed earlier and I missed it.

Michael Cohen has copies of the checks he was issued in 2017 reimbursing him
For the Stormy Daniels payment. Some are signed by Trump and some are signed by Don Jr.

Why was Donald Trump, the president of the United States, who had placed his businesses in a revocable trust, signing checks from that company?

I believe the checks were written before he became President, so I'm not sure that would apply. I could be wrong though.

Edit: Actually, written for "services rendered" prior to becoming Presidet.

 

[superchuck500]

LAST WARNING
The former president is all out of chances to avoid prison for violating his gag order, the judge said in court Monday morning as he found Trump in contempt one more time.

Judge Gives Trump Final Warning: Jail Is Next

The former president is all out of chances to avoid prison for violating his gag order, the judge said in court Monday morning as he found Trump in contempt one more time.

www.thedailybeast.com

“I’ll find you in criminal contempt for the tenth time,” Merchan said in a stark tone. “It appears that the $1,000 fines are not serving as a deterrent. Therefore, going forward, this court will have to consider a jail sanction. Mr. Trump, it’s important to understand the last thing I was to do is put you in jail. You are the former president of the United States, and possibly the next one as well.”

Trump keeps ignoring the judge’s order forbidding him from speaking publicly about witnesses and jurors in a menacing way, something the former president keeps doing anyway on social media. Merchan last week fined Trump $9,000 for nine separate violations of a previous gag order—a step he only took after making repeated warnings.

******************************************
Do you think he will stop or he will end up in jail over this?

I don’t think he can help himself. He doesn’t have any self-control.

If he wants to continue the "unfair/witch hunt" narrative, getting tossed in jail ( or home detention/removal of ability to post to social media as @superchuck500 mentioned on the NY case thread ) he will absolutely do it. If it stirs up his supporters and makes him look like a martyr, he all about self-promotion. Consequences be damned.

*Opens FanDuel acct to check odds

Sorry, I tried to merge this thread and it stuck the posts back in mid-April for some reason.