This is why I am finding it hard to vote either party (1 Viewer)

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Krodwhodat

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Conversations like this are happening a lot more often on social media and this is the mindset of the progressive left. I’m thinking I need to reevaluate my voting this election.

 

RobF

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Is it really the Republican Party creating the unrest? If Trump wins there will be looting, riots and death, if Biden wins do you think Republicans will take to the streets and burn down cities?
Quite possibly, and for the absolute wrong reasons.

Thing is, you've already touched on why yourself, you just haven't realised it:

I disagree with this, I think extremist are the loudest in each party but not the majority. I think that there are things the dems support that I just can get behind. I think that to come here and give bible quotes and discuss Christian beliefs and then turn around and vote for a party that believe in killing babies would fall right under the hypocrisy you speaking about correct?
The highlighted part is at best, highly disingenuous, and at worst - and we're very much in worst territory these days - it's dangerous inflammatory rhetoric. Because, if you actually started to believe it and weren't just employing a deliberate exaggeration for shock value, of course there would be unrest. If a governing party literally believed in killing actual babies, would you really expect people to shrug and wait for the next election?

And that's just one of many, many, ways in which Trump and the Republican party have actively sought to misrepresent Democrat policies and Democrats themselves.

That is why portraying opposing political parties as evil by misrepresenting their beliefs and positions is highly dangerous. Even a cursory awareness of history should let you know it leads to terrible places. You should not vote for a party that makes that a key part of that platform.

(But note: the misrepresenting part is an essential element there. Portraying an opponent's policies as dangerous, or even evil, is obviously acceptable if they actually are. But even then, it should be carefully stated to be specific and not overarching).
 
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Krodwhodat

Krodwhodat

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Bruh, i guess you havent been paying attention. Trump Supporters were blocking a Biden bus and rammed an escort vehicle. They harass and intimidate at almost every juncture.

Can you tell me when the last time you saw 4x4s with 8 ft flag poles in the bed riding around en masse? Never.

this is what Trump wants. pure chaos. If you cannot see this, and the destruction to our society and think you are immune or above it all, then sit idly by. The man has just said SOON AS ELECTION IS OVER IM SENDING LAWYERS INTO SWING STATES.
When was last time an incumbent or challenger SAID THIS BEFORE THE ELECTION?

I suggest you watch the HBO doc on the 2000 election and the Republican party.
So no orgs on the left are causing chaos?
 

Saint by the Bay

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I disagree. I understand that the term most likely comes from a procedure used in Canada to document and address the history and damage done by the Canadian Indian residential school system. It was in issue largely unknown by most Canadians and the government sanctioned a panel to do the deep dive and produce a report - it led to a national apology from the Prime Minister.

But when those like Reich use that terminology to discuss what they see are the rise and abuses of Trumpism, a movement of national United States politics - when he says that supporters should be "named" - I think he is talking about something with a potential to be much more sinister. After Communist takeovers in Southest Asia in the middle of the 20th Century, such commissions were established to identify and publicly name supporters of the imperial systems they overthrew. The result of those commissions was reeducation camps that people typically did not return from.

There's nothing wrong with law enforcement investigations of law-breaking. There's nothing wrong with legislative efforts, including committee hearings, to attempt to shore up weaknesses in American law, including anti-corruption law. But I think we have to be very careful about the rhetoric we use and the tools we use to accomplish those legitimate ends.

A "Truth and Reconciliation Committee" designed to publicly name those who the committee believes committed some injury upon American democracy is very dangerous IMO. It has a very authoritarian ring to it and isn't much different than the "lock them up" mantra that pervades some of Trump's support systems with their own obvious authoritarian tones.
I agree with all your points. My point was that it wasn't the same as the screenshot that was posted.

I think this is one of those cases where three different points are being made that get overlapped.
 

Infoman

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That is why portraying opposing political parties as evil by misrepresenting their beliefs and positions is highly dangerous. Even a cursory awareness of history should let you know it leads to terrible places. You should not vote for a party that makes that a key part of that platform.
Well said.
 

MT15

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What names were you called, Krod? How

I vote my conscience. Always. I don’t have to agree with every position of a politician, that’s unreasonable. There are a couple of issues that are close to deal breakers for me though.Trying to take away a woman’s rights is one of them. Trying to take away people’s rights in general is another.

You or anyone else can make excuses all you want, but you know Trump isn’t fit for office in multiple ways. If he is re-elected we will have so many more unnecessary deaths from the virus, that our total now will be dwarfed. And our total now is a national disgrace.

you have to vote your own values. Just don’t cop out by saying that freaking Joe Biden is some sort of radical leftists, you lose all credibility that way.
 

brandon

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I’m a multiple issue voter.
Then put abortion to the side for a minute. What other issue is so pressing that we need to continue 4 more years of the current downward spiral?
Are you voting for Biden because Trump is a terrible person or because you believe in the democratic platform?
Both. Trump is terrible and needs to be out of office. The Democratic platform also offers many new ideas that I think will be great for our country, including expanded healthcare access, a legitimate COVID response, plans for addressing climate change, equal rights, infrastructure plans, and better social safety nets.
If there was a good Republican running that had an agenda of fixing illegal immigration, bringing back family values, took a stand against abortion, wanted lower taxes and believed in the American dream for everyone. Would you vote for him?
Probably not, but probably because I would disagree on how to fix illegal immigration, and I would probably disagree on what "family values" meant. While I expect our government to try to create policies that lead to fewer abortions, such as free access to birth control and sex education, I generally support the right to an abortion.

I'm definitely in support of lower taxes, provided that the bulk of the benefit is going to the middle and lower classes, and that we actually are funding our government well enough that infrastructure and education are well-funded.

I do believe in supporting the American dream for everyone, however. I would obviously want to see specifics on how that was to occur.

Basically what I'm getting at is I'm not a "platitudes" voter. Don't just tell me what - show me how. Then I'll decide.

I voted for GWB twice, by the way. After I saw the direction of the country post Iraq/Afghanistan/Katrina, I decided that the country needed a new direction and new leadership. So I voted D. Since then, I've seen nothing from either side to indicate that I was wrong then. And I'm certainly not wrong now.
Never, I will never excuse it. Sorry to disappoint but it’s wrong no matter who does it.
What if it looks different though? What if it's not buildings being burned, but counter-protestors being shot? What if it's Trump using the military or police? What if it's cars with Trump flags running Biden buses off the road?
 

Saint by the Bay

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So let me ask you guys, do you vote based on whether you like a candidates personality or based on where they stand on political issues that mean the most to you?
I don't have a single way I approach voting because circumstances change. I evaluate the totality of the situation, personality, positions, current political climate, and make a decision. I'm not an ideologue, I'm just very pragmatic.
 

efil4

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So no orgs on the left are causing chaos?
Do you see 4x4s with Biden flags ramming the escort vehicles of a Trump bus?

Do you see Biden rallies where the crowd is whipped into a frenzy calling for a Governor to be ousted, by locking her up a mere week after a kidnap plot was foiled?

There are extreme left wing groups that are looking for answers. But you dont see Biden/Harris start chants on stage with them do you?
 

wardorican

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So let me ask you guys, do you vote based on whether you like a candidates personality or based on where they stand on political issues that mean the most to you?
Both.

I also consider their thought process. How they tackle an issue. How they address people. How they listen and respond.
 

efil4

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@Krodwhodat

Do you think Fauci is an idiot?
Do you think Harris is a monster?
Do you think servicemen and women are losers and suckers?
Do you think that we are rounding the corner on COVID 19?

If you answer yes to those, go vote.

If you answer no to those, go vote.

Im no longer here to sway your stance. You have multiple stances you adhere to ( like this "american dream and family values" - would REALLY like to know what you define those as )

If all those stances take precedent over civility, dignity and respect, thats for you to grapple with. I cant help you.
 

Brandon13

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So let me ask you guys, do you vote based on whether you like a candidates personality or based on where they stand on political issues that mean the most to you?
It's a combination of everything, but I'm voting for Biden because I believe it's fairly obvious that Trump is dangerous and damaging to our democracy and society in a way that Joe Biden and Kamala Harris simply are not.

If you yourself see an equal amount of danger in a Joe Biden administration compared to what we're seeing right now with our sitting president who's straight up and in plain English voicing his support for an act of right-wing terrorism.. then I just don't know man. I know we're all different but man it is absolutely frightening to me as a citizen of this country that intelligent people like you and like my dad either don't seem to care how far Trump pushes anything, or they "both sides" everything to the point of absurdity because it couldn't be much more clear that Trump is doing horrific stuff that there's no realistic reason to believe would also be done by Joe Biden or Kamala.
 
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zztop

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As a "progressive left" person, what China is doing to the Uighurs is essentially genocide and there is no way I would ever get behind such an act. If you base your decision to vote on president because of some dumbass conversation between two idiots, then that is pretty sad. You have FOUR YEARS of evidence to know what kind of a pieces of shirt Trump and all his spineless enabler republican cronies are, and what ruin they have caused this country
 

Saint by the Bay

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It's a combination of everything, but I'm voting for Biden because I believe it's fairly obvious that Trump is dangerous and damaging to our democracy and society in a way that Joe Biden Kamala Harris simply are not.
If we are speaking strictly of this year, and not in general...

I'm not excited about Biden, but I think any potential damage he can do in 4 years is absolutely dwarfed by the damage Trump will do in that time. An emboldened Trump and his rabid supporters will absolutely do irreparable harm to the American experiment.

In addition, I'm voting for my children. I can't fix what they have gone through the last 4 years due to the grotesque rise in racial animus. I know it's something most white families haven't had to face, but despite my best efforts, the trajectory of my son's life is forever changed by the collapse in race relations in the last 4 years. I'm voting to try and restore some sense of normalcy and get back the 3 or 4 DECADES of progress on race relations we've lost.
 

Nebaghead

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Never, I will never excuse it. Sorry to disappoint but it’s wrong no matter who does it.
They are harassing Biden campaign buses. Observing polls armed. Is that ok? Trump tweeted support for harassing the Biden campaign. Show me where any Dems supported that kind of behavior and not some random person from Twitter. An elected official or person running for office.
 

UncleTrvlingJim

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I think the main point to consider is between Trump and Biden, which one seems to be encouraging the type of behavior you hate? Does it really appear equal? Sure, there are absolutely extreme "leftists", and extreme "right-wingers", but you aren't voting for them, you're voting between Trump, Biden or third party.

You have to weigh how much that behavior is worth compared to whatever policy goals you think they'll try to achieve, weighed with the ability to get those policy goals achieved, and so on.
 

UncleTrvlingJim

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And for the record, I voted for GWB in my first presidential election, then I wrote in Homer J Simpson for his second term. Voted Obama for his first term (because of Sarah Palin), and then went back to voting for Homer J Simpson for Obama's second term.

I voted for Kasich in the 2016 primaries, and that would have been my vote if he made it to the general, but he didn't so I voted for Clinton and didn't even think twice about it because of how bad I think Trump is. It wasn't even close, and I don't have a high opinion of the Clintons.
 

Brandon13

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And for the record, I voted for GWB in my first presidential election, then I wrote in Homer J Simpson for his second term. Voted Obama for his first term (because of Sarah Palin), and then went back to voting for Homer J Simpson for Obama's second term.

I voted for Kasich in the 2016 primaries, and that would have been my vote if he made it to the general, but he didn't so I voted for Clinton and didn't even think twice about it because of how bad I think Trump is. It wasn't even close, and I don't have a high opinion of the Clintons.
Voted for libertarian Bob Barr I think was his name in 2008 (was a Ron Paul guy back then).. that Obama in 2012 though I afterwards regretted not voting third party... And then Hillary in 2016.

So I've regretted my 2012 vote for Obama and even though I dislike Hillary much more than Obama.. I don't regret my 2016 vote for her because it's clear we were correct to believe that Trump is terrible.

The only difference now is that I know more about him and even though I thought he was terrible back then I still somehow severely underestimated just how truly awful a person he is and what the consequences of his presidency would be.
 

BayouSAINTJoe

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Hi guys...long time lurker, 2nd time poster (apparently 9th). I don't usually speak on politics because I'm not all that versed in all of the nuances of policy and so on, but Krod, if that one little twitter exchange has you questioning whether "libs" are extreme, then I invite you to venture on over to the political board on Tiger----- to get an idea of what the "other" side looks like. Read some of the stuff over there and really, really think about if you have more in common w/ them or...the seemingly normal people over here.
 

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