The Voting Thread (Procedures, Turnout, Legal Challenges)(Update: Trump to file suit in PA, MI, WI, AZ, NV, GA) (7 Viewers)

[Lapaz]

There is a lot of push-back from Trump on voting by mail, but most states allow it, and 1/3 allow it without any excuse. His rationale is that it will lead to vast fraud, but of course that isn't his real reason. His real reason is that he thinks it will be worse for conservatives, but studies have shown that states that have instituted much broader voting by mail haven't had any statistical changes in party voting.

Stanford study: Mail voting doesn't benefit one party over another

Coronavirus-spurred limits have intensified a push to allow more mail balloting in November.

www.politico.com

Voting Outside the Polling Place: Absentee, All-Mail and other Voting at Home Options

Most states offer at least one method for any eligible voter to cast a ballot before Election Day. While some states provide early in-person voting, this webpage addresses absentee voting and all-mail voting.

www.ncsl.org

Although, normally voting by mail doesn't affect party votes, I bet it might this year if we have another resurgence of Covid, because I think the right is much more apt to discount the virus than the left. I know that is why Trump is against it.

Whether you're left or right wing, expanding mail in votes is the right thing to do to reduce the likelihood of spreading the virus, to expand voter participation, and to make it easier for those that do show up to stay distant. It will also allow any people with susceptibilities to remain safer. I think voting by mail could be made extremely secure by having people vote using traditional postal mail, coupled with requiring a confirmation either by phone, email or text. If done by phone, then voters can provide confirmation that can include confirming their form number. If done by email or text, it can include a picture of their form, and then confirmation that that was their form. Rather than staffers individually calling people, this can be automated by having voters call the number, text the number, or email the address provided to them on their form. A website can even be created with a database of those that have voted, and perhaps a link to allow people to confirm their vote was correctly registered. For people without computers, a site can include a means to access the database over the phone with some confirmation information. These types of systems are used extensively by banks and other sites that need security, so I think they are mature enough to use. We could even use such a site for people to confirm their vote on the day of the election.

 

[DaveXA]

Very short version, CA recently passed a law allowing party operatives to collect ballots to deliver to official ballot drop off locations.

The Republicans in the state legislature protested saying it would lead to fraud.

So what they are doing is putting up these boxes that say "official" drop box and "nana bana boo booing" the state saying that they have the legal right to collect as many ballots as they want.

The state keeps saying, yes you do, but you can't falsely label them as "official" drop boxes.

This sounds a lot like legalizing ballot harvesting. I'm not really comfortable with the idea of party operatives collecting and delivering ballots. It seems like the party with means and infrastructure would have a significant advantage over the party with fewer resources. It just looks problematic to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the rationale, but doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[LA - L.A.]

This sounds a lot like legalizing ballot harvesting. I'm not really comfortable with the idea of party operatives collecting and delivering ballots. It seems like the party with means and infrastructure would have a significant advantage over the party with fewer resources. It just looks problematic to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the rationale, but doesn't make much sense to me.

The law has safeguards in place. Republicans are ignoring those safeguards to try to self-fulfill their warnings that the law would lead to harvesting of ballots and election fraud.

Basically, they are breaking the actual rules to prove themselves right when they said the rules are bad, or put it another way "look we're breaking the actual law to commit voter fraud, see we told you this law would allow voter fraud."

The leadership of the current Republican party as a whole are corrupt and tyrannical. They are doing everything they can throughout the country to prevent equal rights and representation for anyone they see as the other. And they see the majority of us as the other.

There is absolutely no "both sides are equally bad" when it comes to that.

 

[DaveXA]

The law has safeguards in place. Republicans are ignoring those safeguards to try to self-fulfill their warnings that the law would lead to harvesting of ballots and election fraud.

Basically, they are breaking the actual rules to prove themselves right when they said the rules are bad, or put it another way "look we're breaking the actual law to commit voter fraud, see we told you this law would allow voter fraud."

The leadership of the current Republican party as a whole are corrupt and tyrannical. They are doing everything they can throughout the country to prevent equal rights and representation for anyone they see as the other. And they see the majority of us as the other.

There is absolutely no "both sides are equally bad" when it comes to that.

I'm not speaking to what the Republicans are doing. I'm talking about the law itself. I'm surprised that kind of law is on the books. It just seems like something that could could potentially create more problems than it solves.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I'm not speaking to what the Republicans are doing. I'm talking about the law itself. I'm surprised that kind of law is on the books. It just seems like something that could could potentially create more problems than it solves.

I didn't say you were speaking about Republicans. I clearly was the one speaking about that.

The law has safeguards regarding ballot harvesting. It appears the Republicans are intentionally violating or pushing the envelope on those safeguards for a gotcha moment.

Every law has it's advantages and disadvantages. When it comes to laws about voting, they should inherently err on the side of making it easier for people to vote. They should not inherently err on the side of making it harder to vote just because of fears of possible voter fraud. Prove the realistic threat of voter fraud first, before putting in place any law that makes it harder for anyone to vote or blocking any law that would make it easier for people to vote.

The only historical and significant voter fraud that has taken place in this country is voter suppression laws and practices. Fear of voter fraud is always the justification for the laws and practices that are designed to suppress voting by making it harder for certain people to vote.

 

[Foreign National]

I'm not speaking to what the Republicans are doing. I'm talking about the law itself. I'm surprised that kind of law is on the books. It just seems like something that could could potentially create more problems than it solves.

See, it is working already.

 

[DaveXA]

See, it is working already.

You know, you could elaborate and answer my question rather than making snarky comments that accomplish nothing. I'm being serious in asking what is the rationale for this law.

 

[DaveXA]

I didn't say you were speaking about Republicans. I clearly was the one speaking about that.

The law has safeguards regarding ballot harvesting. It appears the Republicans are intentionally violating or pushing the envelope on those safeguards for a gotcha moment.

Every law has it's advantages and disadvantages. When it comes to laws about voting, they should inherently err on the side of making it easier for people to vote. They should not inherently err on the side of making it harder to vote just because of fears of possible voter fraud. Prove the realistic threat of voter fraud first, before putting in place any law that makes it harder for anyone to vote or blocking any law that would make it easier for people to vote.

The only historical and significant voter fraud that has taken place in this country is voter suppression laws and practices. Fear of voter fraud is always the justification for the laws and practices that are designed to suppress voting by making it harder for certain people to vote.

This is a pretty long winded answer that avoided directly responding to what I asked entirely.

 

[coldseat]

This sounds a lot like legalizing ballot harvesting. I'm not really comfortable with the idea of party operatives collecting and delivering ballots. It seems like the party with means and infrastructure would have a significant advantage over the party with fewer resources. It just looks problematic to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the rationale, but doesn't make much sense to me.

The law does allow ballot harvesting (or collection), but under strict conditions that leave a very clear paper, ID and signature trail that can be traced if there is suspicion of fraud. I doubt it disadvantages the GOP any, but I can see how it might be a disadvantage for third party candidates. It's mostly designed to help older poor voters without family and who have difficulty with mobility. I think before this the law, only a family member could drop off a ballot for another person.

The GOP could have done it the legal way and built up an operation to do this, but they decided to go the illegal rout and do the fake "official" ballot drop off boxes.

 

[wardorican]

This sounds a lot like legalizing ballot harvesting. I'm not really comfortable with the idea of party operatives collecting and delivering ballots. It seems like the party with means and infrastructure would have a significant advantage over the party with fewer resources. It just looks problematic to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the rationale, but doesn't make much sense to me.

Well, the reason for the law, was to allow a family friend or neighbor be able to help out maybe someone elderly or injured. It wasn't meant for political operatives to harvest.

However, it doesn't prohibit it. Well, at least that's what it sounds like. I haven't read the actual law.

 

[wardorican]

Here is the bill, I'll try to give it a read later.

Bill Text - AB-1921 Elections: vote by mail ballots.

leginfo.legislature.ca.gov

Today's Law As Amended - AB-1921 Elections: vote by mail ballots.

leginfo.legislature.ca.gov

This tab (second link) goes to the bill as amended, which shows how it all flows.

 

[wardorican]

I guess one question is, if you drop it off at one of these collection sites, are you knowingly designating them to return your ballot for you? or are people confused, thinking it's an official drop box.

 

[bdb13]

I guess one question is, if you drop it off at one of these collection sites, are you knowingly designating them to return your ballot for you? or are people confused, thinking it's an official drop box.

Knowing very little about this, I'd guess their largest exposure is having labeled the drop boxes as "official."

 

[insidejob]

Indeed, it is stupid but that's the point. They want the chaos. They'll get their people all riled up by saying they have evidence that the radical left has discarded/lost mail-in ballots for trump...and it will work.

Not to mention that Orange County flipped from a Republican stranglehold for like forever to all blue in 2018. It ain't just about the presidential election as I'm sure they'd like those House seats back too.

 

[insidejob]

Early voting starts tomorrow in Louisiana. I don't plan on going tomorrow but I'll go some time next week. A list of locations here for anyone so inclined:

Early Voting

voterportal.sos.la.gov

I'll be there tomorrow morning.

 

[efil4]

Knowing very little about this, I'd guess their largest exposure is having labeled the drop boxes as "official."

my fear is something more sinister. Labeled "official" to dupe some into dropping off and that box disappearing. Not to suppress the vote.

to be an example of fraud so that the claims of voter fraud are supported by instances like this.

Im that worried with the pre-Nov 3rd narrative of voter fraud.

 

[bdb13]

my fear is something more sinister. Labeled "official" to dupe some into dropping off and that box disappearing. Not to suppress the vote.

to be an example of fraud so that the claims of voter fraud are supported by instances like this.

Im that worried with the pre-Nov 3rd narrative of voter fraud.

Oh yeah for sure, I have no doubt that they've thrown away any ballots that were going for Democrats.

 

[DaveXA]

The law does allow ballot harvesting (or collection), but under strict conditions that leave a very clear paper, ID and signature trail that can be traced if there is suspicion of fraud. I doubt it disadvantages the GOP any, but I can see how it might be a disadvantage for third party candidates. It's mostly designed to help older poor voters without family and who have difficulty with mobility. I think before this the law, only a family member could drop off a ballot for another person.

The GOP could have done it the legal way and built up an operation to do this, but they decided to go the illegal rout and do the fake "official" ballot drop off boxes.

That's helpful. I don't know what the best way to do it would be but I would want those who lack mobility to have full access to voting. I'd like to be able to vote by mail or even through a secure internet site. I don't know how secure that can be becuase security for websites has always been an issue. But there need to be other voting alternatives.

All that said, the idea that party operatives can transport completed ballots just doesn't seem like a good idea. If it's a family member or close friend, that would be one thing, but a party operatives making the rounds to transport them seems like an invitation for something to go wrong.

 

[DaveXA]

Oh yeah for sure, I have no doubt that they've thrown away any ballots that were going for Democrats.

Maybe, I don't know. I mean, wouldn't whoever it is doing this have to actually open the ballots to see who's voting? The thing is, I don't really know what is happening to those ballots.