The extreme left agenda: What are some elements of it? (1 Viewer)

[TheRealTruth]

This thread is in reference to Richard stating he did not like the extreme left agenda and I was curious to the finer points of what he had said. (Also this is not singling out Richard, just starting a thread of its own because he didn't want to address it in the other thread) What exactly do people not like about the extreme left agenda.

(There will also be a post about the extreme right agenda as well for fairness)

 

[EmBeeFiveOhFour]

That's literally a list of some of the greatest cities in the country.

They're all too crowded and there is too much demand for limited housing! No one wants to live there any more.

 

[Farb]

That's literally a list of some of the greatest cities in the country.

Planning on moving to any of them? I hear it is a huge real estate buyers market.
You should also check out Pripyat, Ukraine. Sounds about up your alley.

 

[rajncajn]

In the first two lines you seem to be making way too many assumptions about me and that response is not productive. I posed a few honest questions to something that both impacts me directly and that I have concerns about and I didn't do so by making any sort of accusations or baseless claims.

What's being said is that basic state college education should be available to everyone at a cost that's reasonable.

In all practicality, that means an expansion of state universities and community colleges. It should also mean a drastic increase in technical schools that are not private, for-profit institutions of financial rape. What it absolutely doesn't mean is that Harvard will be free to the kid that makes a 2.5 in general studies.

I don't disagree with this. Believe me, I have one in college now & another who will be in a couple of years. Scholarships certainly don't pay for everything, even when your child is a 30+, straight A student (slight dad-brag there).

States used to fund higher education, but they really don't much anymore. It's all become big business and instead of focusing on quality and NORMAL education, the big schools compete for high dollar students with giant stadiums, condo dorms and things completely unnecessary for learning. We've lost track of how to teach efficiently and that's got to change whether it's via the market or higher education reform including federally funded higher education.

That's a huge ask for states like Mississippi, Louisiana & Alabama who are typically some of the poorest states in the nation. We can't even replace crumbling bridges or pay our lower education teachers, so if that were left up to the states I'd imagine there'd be an awful lot of universities shutting their doors. As for stadiums, most of the bigger stadiums these days are funded by sponsors and private donors. As for the "condo" dorms, again, my daughter is in a brand new dorm and it's very nice as dorms go, but I'd hardly describe it as a condo. I wouldn't even call it a hotel. I've also seen a lot of our friends post pictures of their kids dorms from some bigger colleges like Ms State, Ole Miss, Auburn, Notre Dame, Florida & Harvard & many are not even on the level of hers and none are any better that I've seen, but honestly, I'd say a little bit of comfort should be expected and does help with learning IMO. On teaching efficiency, I'm not sure what you mean by that and would like to hear more. I'm not sure if you're talking about overall school costs or what we get out of the education system or what we get out of teachers vs what they're paid or a combination of all or something else. I'd like to hear a couple of our educators here weigh in on that or this subject in general.

So, what it sounds like you're saying is that colleges need to find ways to drive down operating costs, which I agree with but have no idea how that even may be accomplished (part of my original question). Is that going to be done through federal regulations, lower pay, less money for programs etc? If you go by the lower education model then you're talking underpaid teachers, arts program cuts, old & outdated equipment etc, but I digress. Those lower costs should transfer to students presumably and the rest would likely be federally and/or state funded? Of course the richer states would have the better colleges because they could afford to unless each state would be forced into providing for a college fund based on their individual economy which would then be divided equally depending on needs such as attendance etc. I'm not sure you could ever get congress to all agree on that though. I have doubt that you could get states like California & New Hampshire to agree to supplement schools in Mississippi. After all, they are representing their states, not ours.

Then the elephant in the room is, of course, taxes. On the surface, taxes for schools makes sense to me. I agree that we have a responsibility, whether we have children or not, to educate our people. if not for the betterment of ourselves & our children then for the betterment of our nations future as a whole. But when you start combining the taxpayer cost of education and balancing the budget & universal healthcare & gun buy-backs & police reform & Green New Deal.. all of that is taxpayer funded and that's just a very scary thought to me. I'm not saying that none of it should be done, I just can't see how without breaking the taxpayer.

 

[dtc]

In the first two lines you seem to be making way too many assumptions about me and that response is not productive. I posed a few honest questions to something that both impacts me directly and that I have concerns about and I didn't do so by making any sort of accusations or baseless claims.

The word "you" doesn't always indicate a specific person. I could have used the phrasing "When one" and made the point more accurately.

 

[Booker]

Planning on moving to any of them? I hear it is a huge real estate buyers market.
You should also check out Pripyat, Ukraine. Sounds about up your alley.

I'm quite content living right outside of Denver, another of the great, big cities in the country that happens to have a long history of Democratic leadership.

And just to point out, you live in Alabama -- one of the worst states in the country (49th out of 50 by the ranking below). I'd gladly move to any of those cities before I'd ever consider moving anywhere in Alabama.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/alabama

 

[Ayo]

Toronto makes a lot of progressive cities in the US look moderate. And it's really, really nice here.

 

[dtc]

In the first two lines you seem to be making way too many assumptions about me and that response is not productive. I posed a few honest questions to something that both impacts me directly and that I have concerns about and I didn't do so by making any sort of accusations or baseless claims.

I don't disagree with this. Believe me, I have one in college now & another who will be in a couple of years. Scholarships certainly don't pay for everything, even when your child is a 30+, straight A student (slight dad-brag there).

That's a huge ask for states like Mississippi, Louisiana & Alabama who are typically some of the poorest states in the nation. We can't even replace crumbling bridges or pay our lower education teachers, so if that were left up to the states I'd imagine there'd be an awful lot of universities shutting their doors. As for stadiums, most of the bigger stadiums these days are funded by sponsors and private donors. As for the "condo" dorms, again, my daughter is in a brand new dorm and it's very nice as dorms go, but I'd hardly describe it as a condo. I wouldn't even call it a hotel. I've also seen a lot of our friends post pictures of their kids dorms from some bigger colleges like Ms State, Ole Miss, Auburn, Notre Dame, Florida & Harvard & many are not even on the level of hers and none are any better that I've seen, but honestly, I'd say a little bit of comfort should be expected and does help with learning IMO. On teaching efficiency, I'm not sure what you mean by that and would like to hear more. I'm not sure if you're talking about overall school costs or what we get out of the education system or what we get out of teachers vs what they're paid or a combination of all or something else. I'd like to hear a couple of our educators here weigh in on that or this subject in general.

So, what it sounds like you're saying is that colleges need to find ways to drive down operating costs, which I agree with but have no idea how that even may be accomplished (part of my original question). Is that going to be done through federal regulations, lower pay, less money for programs etc? If you go by the lower education model then you're talking underpaid teachers, arts program cuts, old & outdated equipment etc, but I digress. Those lower costs should transfer to students presumably and the rest would likely be federally and/or state funded? Of course the richer states would have the better colleges because they could afford to unless each state would be forced into providing for a college fund based on their individual economy which would then be divided equally depending on needs such as attendance etc. I'm not sure you could ever get congress to all agree on that though. I have doubt that you could get states like California & New Hampshire to agree to supplement schools in Mississippi. After all, they are representing their states, not ours.

Then the elephant in the room is, of course, taxes. On the surface, taxes for schools makes sense to me. I agree that we have a responsibility, whether we have children or not, to educate our people. if not for the betterment of ourselves & our children then for the betterment of our nations future as a whole. But when you start combining the taxpayer cost of education and balancing the budget & universal healthcare & gun buy-backs & police reform & Green New Deal.. all of that is taxpayer funded and that's just a very scary thought to me. I'm not saying that none of it should be done, I just can't see how without breaking the taxpayer.

I like it. Good stuff and it is sort of scary, but let's face the facts.

In the US we spend more wasted money on excessively priced healthcare than anyone else. We spend multiples of what the rest of the world spends on our military and we don't even have any allies left to defend. We waste money on the dumbest of things willingly and with full throated support yet somehow we can't figure out how to afford the basics necessities of society.

Infrastructure, education, healthcare are all just as important as anything else yet we can have every tiny city in the US driving mechanized infantry vehicles to traffic stops. We can build color changing hospital towers. We can build 100k stadiums for college football and the top 1% owns half of the nation. The top 10% owns 90% of the US yet we are afraid to actually tax corporations and people at the top at the same rates I pay.

We are sissies that have been fully bought and owned by the rich. The sooner we all come to terms with that, things like education and infrastructure will become easy to fix. And, for what it's worth, things like the Green New Deal and Education are likely to be more than self-funding as they provide new technologies and savings that offset the investment cost.

 

[rajncajn]

The word "you" doesn't always indicate a specific person. I could have used the phrasing "When one" and made the point more accurately.

The point didn't need to be made at all and starts off your reply in a negative & confrontational manner. Whether it was directed at me or not is both unclear & irrelevant and unless ignored, it sets the tone for your entire response.. I chose to bypass it and continue the conversation, but I did feel the need to remark on it because it's that very tone which derails good conversation.

 

[Farb]

I'm quite content living right outside of Denver, another of the great, big cities in the country that happens to have a long history of Democratic leadership.

And just to point out, you live in Alabama -- one of the worst states in the country (49th out of 50 by the ranking below). I'd gladly move to any of those cities before I'd ever consider moving anywhere in Alabama.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/alabama

I do live in Alabama- Home of 19 national championships in football. Please feel free to bow your head in respect.

Also:
https://www.al.com/news/2019/11/thousands-moving-to-alabama-from-illinois-every-year.html

And:
https://www.census.gov/library/stor...uth-west-dominate-recent-migration-flows.html
Lots of poeple are moving south, terrible no good Alabama too. Maybe because of taxes but lots of other reasons as well

 

[Booker]

I do live in Alabama- Home of 19 national championships in football. Please feel free to bow your head in respect.

Also:
https://www.al.com/news/2019/11/thousands-moving-to-alabama-from-illinois-every-year.html

And:
https://www.census.gov/library/stor...uth-west-dominate-recent-migration-flows.html
Lots of poeple are moving south, terrible no good Alabama too. Maybe because of taxes but lots of other reasons as well

I admit, college football in Colorado leaves something to be desired.

 

[bdb13]

I admit, college football in Colorado leaves something to be desired.

Maybe they can make the fifth down a standard thing when you guys have the ball.

Roll Damn Tide lol

 

[brandon]

I do live in Alabama- Home of 19 national championships in football. Please feel free to bow your head in respect.

Also:
https://www.al.com/news/2019/11/thousands-moving-to-alabama-from-illinois-every-year.html

And:
https://www.census.gov/library/stor...uth-west-dominate-recent-migration-flows.html
Lots of poeple are moving south, terrible no good Alabama too. Maybe because of taxes but lots of other reasons as well

So we're just gonna ignore that the map you posted has Alabama as the 40th best state in terms of tax climate?

 

[dtc]

The point didn't need to be made at all and starts off your reply in a negative & confrontational manner. Whether it was directed at me or not is both unclear & irrelevant and unless ignored, it sets the tone for your entire response.. I chose to bypass it and continue the conversation, but I did feel the need to remark on it because it's that very tone which derails good conversation.

It's probably a combination of my being prone to being an arse and my writing style, but that's now how it was meant. I actually made a conscious decision when I wrote it to be applicable to both extremes - right and left. It wasn't very clear, but I did not mean to have a tone that was offputting.

How about this. If one listens only to the extremes of right or left wing rhetoric....

I do appreciate the input and were the tone to have changed it may have made it easier to generate the quality of response you've made. Thanks for overlooking it civilly even when it appeared I was being less nice than I intended. The discussion is worth it.

 

[SaintForLife]

So if you already know what the far left believes, or what you think they believe, and didn’t want to hear what we think, I guess I’m confused.

I admit I am not “far left” but I do inhabit a bit of a left leaning community on line. I havent seen anyone advocating for open borders or banning all guns. That may be a really radical fringe.

I guess I don‘t get the point of this thread.

Wouldn't decriminalization of border crossing fall into open borders? I remember every Democratic Presidential candidate raising their hands when the moderator asked them if they were for decriminalization of the borders.

 

[donato]

So we're just gonna ignore that the map you posted has Alabama as the 40th best state in terms of tax climate?

Only a guy from Alabama would brag about being 40th out of 50 in something.

 

[Farb]

Only a guy from Alabama would brag about being 40th out of 50 in something.

says the guy from Louisiana.
Besides, the whole self loathing movement seem to be a lefty thing.

 

[SaintForLife]

The reimbursement rates would have to be changed with a single payer system. Also, doctors, and other medical professionals would start to make comparable incomes to the rest of the developed world. That means overall less compensation. We were crazy to try a free market solution to a market that is inelastic. You won't shop hospitals in the ambulance.

Another on the list:

Tuition free college

The reimbursement rates would have to be changed, but I'm referring to the reimbursement rates in the plans of Sanders and others. I believe they decrease them in their plans from where they are now.

I agree that doctors pay can be reduced, but nurses pay shouldn't be reduced unless we want to have less young people going into the field.

There is no way we should have tutition free college at their current rates. Maybe after big reductions in what they charge for tuition, but we don't need to subsidize unnecessary luxury items like LSU's new lazy river.

 

[Ayo]

I agree that doctors pay can be reduced, but nurses pay shouldn't be reduced unless we want to have less young people going into the field.

The acknowledgment that increased pay is an incentive to go into a necessary field is a good step. Now let's be mindful when it's extended to others.

There is no way we should have tutition free college at their current rates. Maybe after big reductions in what they charge for tuition, but we don't need to subsidize unnecessary luxury items like LSU's new lazy river.

Part of this is the result of universities being treated as 'businesses.'

Administrative hallways are increasingly filled with Business Majors (Margaret Spellings, Sec of Ed under Bush was a Business grad from UM I believe) and MBAs and wanna be CEOs.

Not educators.

Bloat and glitze and gimmicks to draw students in are PR, not education. Other nations, including up here, have free or much cheaper postsecondary education, but there's less mid management bloat, less CEO-ization of university administration, and fewer of the 'sillier' (somewhat objective) amenities.

U of Toronto has 93k students and there are some differences between the mid management (per capita) and some of the amenities/facilities it seems to me.

So I would say that we should be very careful flatly advocating for "Treat Universities as Businesses!" because this is what we end up with.