Republicans moving ahead with Trump’s ‘big’ bill of tax breaks (5 Viewers)

[zztop]

Republicans moving ahead with Trump's 'big' bill of tax breaks and spending cuts amid tariff uproar

After a long wait, the Senate is launching action on President Donald Trump’s ”“big, beautiful bill” of tax breaks and spending cuts.

apnews.com

More than a month after House Republicans surprised Washington by advancing their framework for Trump’s $4.5 trillion in tax breaks and $2 trillion in spending cuts, Senate Republicans voted Thursday to start working on their version. The largely party-line vote, 52-48, sets the stage for a potential Senate all-nighter Friday spilling into the weekend.

 

[Heathen]

Maybe you can explain to me what rioting would accomplish and what you think would happen next.

I think the government being fearful of kidnapping its own citizens should be preferable to the other way around.

That at least becomes more likely if the government knows the citizenry will turn on them. Literally.

 

[faceman]

I think the government being fearful of kidnapping its own citizens should be preferable to the other way around.

That at least becomes more likely if the government knows the citizenry will turn on them. Literally.

A group of citizens no matter how well organized would stand a chance fighting the forces
the government could send. They would also need the military turning against Trump.

 

[Sendai]

Rioting will only hasten the process IMO. Trump is itching to declare a state of emergency and impose martial law.

Peaceful massive protests - great. Selected under the radar dirty tricks - okay in the spirit of fighting fire with fire (hacking their communications, etc.) But rioting would be a disaster.

Hacking their communications is likely illegal.

 

[MT15]

A group of citizens no matter how well organized would stand a chance fighting the forces
the government could send. They would also need the military turning against Trump.

I think you mean no chance.

I think that there are enough MAGA people in the armed forces to be a problem. And rioting - assuming this means violence, loss of innocent lives, and severe property damage - would only make it more likely that Trump and the GOP would turn the armed forces against the general population IMO.

I’ve lived through a violent period once already - I don’t think it solves anything. Rather it hardens the hearts of the opposition. I saw it first hand during the Vietnam War. Older folks when I was growing up were not in love with the Vietnam War but were tolerating it due to the “fighting communism” narrative, but when students began firebombing college buildings and so forth, a lot of older people were absolutely horrified. The public sentiment against the violent protests led to Nixon feeling emboldened enough to send in the National Guard, and ultimately led to some innocent lives being lost.

Which then was part of the pendulum swinging back against the Nixon Admin, ironically. It may have actually prolonged the war to have violent protests. At least I think that is a real possibility.

A massive peaceful protest is much more effective than violence of any sort, IMO.

 

[Dragon]

I think you mean no chance.

I think that there are enough MAGA people in the armed forces to be a problem. And rioting - assuming this means violence, loss of innocent lives, and severe property damage - would only make it more likely that Trump and the GOP would turn the armed forces against the general population IMO.

I’ve lived through a violent period once already - I don’t think it solves anything. Rather it hardens the hearts of the opposition. I saw it first hand during the Vietnam War. Older folks when I was growing up were not in love with the Vietnam War but were tolerating it due to the “fighting communism” narrative, but when students began firebombing college buildings and so forth, a lot of older people were absolutely horrified. The public sentiment against the violent protests led to Nixon feeling emboldened enough to send in the National Guard, and ultimately led to some innocent lives being lost.

Which then was part of the pendulum swinging back against the Nixon Admin, ironically. It may have actually prolonged the war to have violent protests. At least I think that is a real possibility.

A massive peaceful protest is much more effective than violence of any sort, IMO.

Agree... I saw it personally in prague before the fall of the iron curtain. People just standing quietly with candles - some singing - but thousands of them. The same was happening in all the countries from the baltic nations, poland to east germany and hungary, When people have had enough and don't care what happens to them then that is the way to do it. Don't know how it would work in the US however. It only take a few right wing idiots with guns to create a massacre

 

[Heathen]

I think it's less that nonviolent protest hasn't worked before and more that we appear to be advancing into an era of which there may be no return with truly becoming an authoritarian state a la Hungary, to which no amount of mass protest or outrage is going to work like it did before. So, we consider things we didn't before because that is where we are going, and no number of people with signs or chants or fond recitations of past movements is going to save us from what's coming next, IMHO.

We don't know what it's like to large scale be harassed in our right to protest. That will start to become much more common very quickly.

I mean, consider even the government threat to citizens for a moment. Let that sink in. Something that has never at least publicly been an American issue that now IS.

Consider that vast, vast majority of these protestors or even those with allegiances perceived to be against the US (for bullshirt reasons) being targeted for kidnapping as I said before. ICE is domestic terror under the guise of "get the scary foreigners out of here". ICE can, will and will continue to target American citizens to where it is a commonplace - not a rarity. I've seen it with my own eyes.

This isn't going to just go away. It's going to expand. There are elements of our society and what deceiving sense of a safety net that are rapidly falling away. That will only become more and more apparent to those still in denial about how many "unique" freedoms we enjoy as compared to other countries.

And if the Democrats keep with their playbook of running corporatist, jerked to the right out of necessity Dems against oligarchy-ready, christian fascism hungry populists in general elections like they've done the last several - we can ready ourselves for decades of what we're witnessing now. It is just the start.

So I don't know for a fact that it will work. But there's evidence that it can be impactful. And again, we need to stop thinking in terms of strictly what has worked before. I see a lot of people not understanding of how serious the next four years are going to be thinking they can treat it like the last forty.

It's a new ballgame.

 

[MT15]

On the other hand, if the opposition starts being violent, it will lose any support from the majority of people, and give justification for any violence the state wishes to use against US citizens.

If the opposition starts killing innocent people by rioting, it won’t strike fear into the government, in fact the worst members will be happy. It gives them license to meet violence with violence and also the opposition gives up any moral advantage they used to have over the other side.

It’s not the way, I promise. Seen it. Didn’t do any good, IMO. Just hardens hearts.

 

[Sendai]

I think you mean no chance.

I think that there are enough MAGA people in the armed forces to be a problem. And rioting - assuming this means violence, loss of innocent lives, and severe property damage - would only make it more likely that Trump and the GOP would turn the armed forces against the general population IMO.

I’ve lived through a violent period once already - I don’t think it solves anything. Rather it hardens the hearts of the opposition. I saw it first hand during the Vietnam War. Older folks when I was growing up were not in love with the Vietnam War but were tolerating it due to the “fighting communism” narrative, but when students began firebombing college buildings and so forth, a lot of older people were absolutely horrified. The public sentiment against the violent protests led to Nixon feeling emboldened enough to send in the National Guard, and ultimately led to some innocent lives being lost.

Which then was part of the pendulum swinging back against the Nixon Admin, ironically. It may have actually prolonged the war to have violent protests. At least I think that is a real possibility.

A massive peaceful protest is much more effective than violence of any sort, IMO.

The only time Nixon called out the National Guard was the New York postal workers strike. They delivered mail.

 

[MT15]

The only time Nixon called out the National Guard was the New York postal workers strike. They delivered mail.

Okay so it was the governors who felt emboldened. That’s beside the point.

 

[Bolo]

Im already at acceptance stage. But I’m still enraged every day.

I've been there for awhile now. Congress is so hopelessly lost that its over, people need to wake up to the fact its over. All these elected officials are doing is enriching themselves and their families. This is impossible to vote our way out of.

 

[Heathen]

On the other hand, if the opposition starts being violent, it will lose any support from the majority of people, and give justification for any violence the state wishes to use against US citizens.

If the opposition starts killing innocent people by rioting, it won’t strike fear into the government, in fact the worst members will be happy. It gives them license to meet violence with violence and also the opposition gives up any moral advantage they used to have over the other side.

It’s not the way, I promise. Seen it. Didn’t do any good, IMO. Just hardens hearts.

I think the point was generally that when peaceful movements no longer work against the onslaught of authoritarian oversteps, you start thinking differently.

There is no “we don’t or won’t go there”.

Do we think even millions of people peacefully protesting against ICE will keep these thugs from kidnapping more and more people? Of course not. That has only accelerated.

To be clear, I’m not directly advocating for violence. If necessary and ideally in self defense, sure - it’s not preferable but sometimes that is in fact the reality. It’s been a core part of American history too.

 

[Heathen]

I've been there for awhile now. Congress is so hopelessly lost that its over, people need to wake up to the fact its over. All these elected officials are doing is enriching themselves and their families. This is impossible to vote our way out of.

This is exactly right.

I think a lot of people think that even now we can get back to normal if we just go through the motions that have worked before.

 

[Huntn]

I've been there for awhile now. Congress is so hopelessly lost that its over, people need to wake up to the fact its over. All these elected officials are doing is enriching themselves and their families. This is impossible to vote our way out of.

We are already forked. That time has passed after Nov 6th when the people elected a twice-impeached, 34 felony, 4x bankrupt sexual assaulter.

Even if democracy somehow survives these next few years, it will be so forked up that it will probably take decades to repair (if ever)

Im already at acceptance stage. But I’m still enraged every day.

I agree and this is why the only way easy out is with hardcore economic pain and a general uprising that starts with state populaces throwing out their arse wipe leadership they send to DC. The hard way out is a Revolution or a Coup, but I’m getting to the point practically any move* that removes the current POTUS from power is a move in the right direction. I might welcome an overthrow of the Congress/POTUS by our military which I still respect, but acknowledge this still puts us in a horrible murky place that is hard to emerge from unscathed with such division in our states.

* I’m not advocating assassination.

We may recover, but it is possible the election of The Orange Ogre, The Head Felon, The Head Liar, and The Head Traitor, may have signaled the end of The United States of America.

The man is all of these things but he appears to have broad support, HOW CAN THIS POSSIBLY BE?? It’s because enough of us are, you’re choice: STUPID, corrupted, racist, sexist forks, have decided democracy is “not for me”, but surely it will be better when my (corrupt, incompetant, malevolent) dictator is calling the shots.

I’ll add ‘fools’ to not realize number one, as a Trump supporter, you’re just his tool, his livestock. And number 2 fascism is a double edged sword, and you are of minion status. Rock the boat and you may find yourself in an El Salvadoran prison, an unmarked grave or an incinerator. I’m not egaggerating.

Look to Russia for Trump’s model of control and be fully aware of what they do with the dissenters, anything from long-term incarceration to being murdered or disappeared. Oh yeah, they have courts and a military (in Putin’s pocket). That’s how you hold power without broad support and that’s exactly where we’re at. According to the polls he has somewhere between 30 and 40% support, maybe 20 to 30% hard-core support but it maybe enough to spoil the party. So that 60-80% need to get off their arses

Fortunately our courts are not yet mostly under Trump’s control and I still regard the military as a wildcard. I do know under the his last administration, he was at hard-core odds the military leadership who regarded him as a dangerous buffoon. Example: when Trump suggested the military be used in the election The Joint Chiefs told him to shove it up his arse.

Any leader of this democracy who no longer wants court or congressional oversight is a budding dictator of which he’s already publicly stated this was his intent before the election. He’s beyond ’budding’ if congressional maggots and/or the courts lay down and let him rampage.

 

[Incumbent]

I think it's less that nonviolent protest hasn't worked before and more that we appear to be advancing into an era of which there may be no return with truly becoming an authoritarian state a la Hungary, to which no amount of mass protest or outrage is going to work like it did before. So, we consider things we didn't before because that is where we are going, and no number of people with signs or chants or fond recitations of past movements is going to save us from what's coming next, IMHO.

We don't know what it's like to large scale be harassed in our right to protest. That will start to become much more common very quickly.

I mean, consider even the government threat to citizens for a moment. Let that sink in. Something that has never at least publicly been an American issue that now IS.

Consider that vast, vast majority of these protestors or even those with allegiances perceived to be against the US (for bullshirt reasons) being targeted for kidnapping as I said before. ICE is domestic terror under the guise of "get the scary foreigners out of here". ICE can, will and will continue to target American citizens to where it is a commonplace - not a rarity. I've seen it with my own eyes.

This isn't going to just go away. It's going to expand. There are elements of our society and what deceiving sense of a safety net that are rapidly falling away. That will only become more and more apparent to those still in denial about how many "unique" freedoms we enjoy as compared to other countries.

And if the Democrats keep with their playbook of running corporatist, jerked to the right out of necessity Dems against oligarchy-ready, christian fascism hungry populists in general elections like they've done the last several - we can ready ourselves for decades of what we're witnessing now. It is just the start.

So I don't know for a fact that it will work. But there's evidence that it can be impactful. And again, we need to stop thinking in terms of strictly what has worked before. I see a lot of people not understanding of how serious the next four years are going to be thinking they can treat it like the last forty.

It's a new ballgame.

The “new ballgame” is exactly the outcome many people knew would be the result if Harris didn’t win the election. All of it. Everything that is happening.

I agree with you that violence is increasingly inevitable at this point. Our best peaceful tool of resistance failed in November 2024.

 

[Huntn]

I think you mean no chance.

I think that there are enough MAGA people in the armed forces to be a problem. And rioting - assuming this means violence, loss of innocent lives, and severe property damage - would only make it more likely that Trump and the GOP would turn the armed forces against the general population IMO.

I’ve lived through a violent period once already - I don’t think it solves anything. Rather it hardens the hearts of the opposition. I saw it first hand during the Vietnam War. Older folks when I was growing up were not in love with the Vietnam War but were tolerating it due to the “fighting communism” narrative, but when students began firebombing college buildings and so forth, a lot of older people were absolutely horrified. The public sentiment against the violent protests led to Nixon feeling emboldened enough to send in the National Guard, and ultimately led to some innocent lives being lost.

Which then was part of the pendulum swinging back against the Nixon Admin, ironically. It may have actually prolonged the war to have violent protests. At least I think that is a real possibility.

A massive peaceful protest is much more effective than violence of any sort, IMO.

The important thing is there has to be pushback from a large number of people. Congressional leadership must feel threatened with the coming election. Of course, that all becomes mute if Trump declares martial law and his supremacy. To change that, you would need an active revolution emerging from the states, and ideally a military either totally against or divided regarding The Orange Don. Of course the former would be a short reign for ‘Mr. Dictator For Just A Day’

 

[Optimus Prime]

If enacted, Donald Trump’s Big Ugly Bill as it emerged on Thursday from the House of Representatives would result in the largest redistribution of income and wealth in American history – from the poor and working class to the rich.

Hidden within the bill is also a provision that would allow Trump to crown himself king.

For months now, Trump has been trying to act like a king by ignoring court rulings against him.….

So what’s the next step? Will the supreme court and lower courts hold the administration in contempt and enforce the contempt citations?

Trump and his Republican stooges in Congress apparently anticipated this. Hidden inside their Big Ugly Bill is a provision intended to block the courts from using contempt to enforce its orders. It reads:

“No court of the United States may use appropriated funds to enforce a contempt citation for failure to comply with an injunction or temporary restraining order if no security was given when the injunction or order was issued … ”

Translated: no federal court may enforce a contempt citation.

The measure would make most existing injunctions – in antitrust cases, police reform cases, school desegregation cases and others – unenforceable.

Its only purpose is to weaken the power of the federal courts.


As Erwin Chemerinsky, UC Berkeley School of Law dean and distinguished professor of law, notes, this provision would eliminate any restraint on Trump.

“Without the contempt power, judicial orders are meaningless and can be ignored. There is no way to understand this except as a way to keep the Trump administration from being restrained when it violates the Constitution or otherwise breaks the law …

“This would be a stunning restriction on the power of the federal courts. The Supreme Court has long recognized that the contempt power is integral to the authority of the federal courts. Without the ability to enforce judicial orders, they are rendered mere advisory opinions which parties are free to disregard.”

In other words, with this single measure, Trump will have crowned himself king.……..

A hidden measure in the Republican budget bill would crown Trump king | Robert Reich

The bill could stop federal courts from enforcing their rulings, eliminating any restraint on Trump

www.theguardian.com

 

[zztop]

Reagan has been a plague. He's convinced Americans that the rich would find it in their hearts to provide for the rest of america and that government is pure evil.

Yeah, I don't know why the American people keep falling for elected officials who want to push 'trickle down' policy. Because it.has.never.worked

 

[Dragon]

I think the point was generally that when peaceful movements no longer work against the onslaught of authoritarian oversteps, you start thinking differently.

There is no “we don’t or won’t go there”.

Do we think even millions of people peacefully protesting against ICE will keep these thugs from kidnapping more and more people? Of course not. That has only accelerated.

To be clear, I’m not directly advocating for violence. If necessary and ideally in self defense, sure - it’s not preferable but sometimes that is in fact the reality. It’s been a core part of American history too.

You don’t remember the people who tried to overthrow dictatorships with violence. What stays with us — what moves the world — are the peaceful protests: thousands standing with candles, singing in unison… and that lone, courageous man in China, standing defiantly before a line of tanks.

Did those moments change everything overnight? No. But they did change something far more powerful: public opinion. And over time, that shift laid the groundwork for real transformation — in places like Bulgaria, Poland, and even pre-Putin Russia.

When enough people stand up peacefully, the system can change — even in the face of brutal repression.

As Mandela said, resorting to violence costs you the moral high ground. And once you lose that, you risk losing the most powerful ally you have against authoritarianism: the people you claim to represent.