Republican Assault on Public Education (3 Viewers)

[MT15]

This probably needs its own thread. It ties in with a lot of different R culture wars: Attacks on universities, attacks on CRT and “woke”. Classifying teachers and librarians as “groomers”. Pushing vouchers to send tax money to private, often religious, schools. Betsy DeVos was an advocate for all these policies that will weaken public education, and there are several billionaires who also want to dismantle public education. Public education may have its faults, but it is responsible for an amazing amount of upward mobility. Kids from poor areas can still get a college prep education in a public school.

Vouchers (sometimes disguised as “school choice”) are a particular peeve of mine. Public money is diverted from poor schools to wealthy private schools, which aren’t required to offer accommodations for special needs or challenged students. Families with special needs kids are left out. Rural areas often suffer disproportionately because there are no private schools to attend, but their public schools still see the reduction in funding. Often the families who take advantage of the voucher money are upper class and the private schools simply raise tuition knowing the families are getting taxpayer money now.

Greg Abbot is being particularly vile in this area. No surprise. Voters will have to make a statement about public education. If we want to halt the growing divide in this country between the “haves” and “have-nots”, we need to pay attention to public education.

 

[Sendai]

The idea that the National Board for Education Sciences (NBES) has been ineffective ignores one critical fact: it wasn’t allowed to function properly under the Trump administration. For four years, Trump failed to appoint enough members to even hold a meeting—effectively silencing the board without formally abolishing it. Then came the pandemic, which brought public education to its knees and made long-term research and innovation even more essential. So when critics ask what the board accomplished in the last 10 years, they overlook the deliberate sabotage it endured. It was only under the Biden administration that efforts were finally underway to revitalize the board, refocus on data-driven education policy, and address deep-rooted achievement gaps in underserved communities—urban and rural alike.

Now, with Trump back in power, we’re watching history repeat itself: qualified experts fired en masse, research budgets gutted, and a renewed push for school vouchers. These vouchers may sound like “choice,” but in practice, they funnel public funds away from struggling public schools and into private institutions—many of which are unregulated and inaccessible to the very students who need the most support. This isn’t decentralization; it’s abandonment. It’s a calculated dismantling of public education infrastructure in favor of ideological posturing and privatization. Shutting down evidence-based research and redirecting funds to the states without oversight doesn’t solve inequality—it entrenches it.

If YOU truly cared about improving education outcomes in America’s hardest-hit communities, we need more research, more accountability, and more inclusive policy—not less.

It hasn’t been effective under any administration. It’s a waste of time and money. As I said just look at the sub par performance of rural and urban school systems systems. These researchers contribute nothing.

 

[Sendai]

So short-sighted. Painting with such a broad brush, with little or no actual knowledge of anything that is going on.

They aren’t going to give the money to the states. They are going to keep the money, and probably send it to a partisan external group to do bogus “research” that will reinforce their own biases.

Anyway, the president cannot just take funding that has been properly allocated by Congress and divert it to his own purposes. There’s a right way and a wrong way to do these things, and Trump is always, always doing it the wrong way, the illegal way. The unconstitutional way.

I’ve been working with these schools for a long, long time. Parochial, Christian, non-denominational. It’s Government money well spent.

 

[MT15]

Every Christian and catholic school in my area routinely averages 26-30 on the act. That doesn’t happen spending significant time on religious indoctrination. It’s money well spent.

What you don’t know, or seem to be unwilling to acknowledge, is that the single most determinative factor in standardized test scores is socioeconomic status of the test taker. Not the schools.

When these private schools - and I find it very curious and telling that you make a distinction between “Christian” and “Catholic”, lol - have to accept any student that applies for admission, then we can discuss. When the socioeconomic makeup of the student body reflects the same as most rural or urban schools we can discuss.

Until then you are just carrying water for an unjust system that intentionally leaves the majority of poor and disadvantaged kids behind. And uses taxpayer money to do so.

 

[Dragon]

It hasn’t been effective under any administration. It’s a waste of time and money. As I said just look at the sub par performance of rural and urban school systems systems. These researchers contribute nothing.

Subpar school performance is often the result of unequal funding structures. In many areas, especially without strong federal support, school funding is tied to local tax bases—meaning wealthier cities and counties can afford better resources, while poorer urban and rural districts are left underfunded. These disadvantaged schools serve students who may already face significant challenges at home, including food insecurity, lack of access to healthcare, and limited parental support due to economic pressures.

Instead of addressing these disparities, school voucher programs make the problem worse. They siphon public funds away from struggling schools and redirect them to families who can already afford private school tuition. In practice, this drains resources from the students who need them most and further widens the gap between privileged and underprivileged children.

 

[Sendai]

What you don’t know, or seem to be unwilling to acknowledge, is that the single most determinative factor in standardized test scores is socioeconomic status of the test taker. Not the schools.

When these private schools - and I find it very curious and telling that you make a distinction between “Christian” and “Catholic”, lol - have to accept any student that applies for admission, then we can discuss. When the socioeconomic makeup of the student body reflects the same as most rural or urban schools we can discuss.

Until then you are just carrying water for an unjust system that intentionally leaves the majority of poor and disadvantaged kids behind. And uses taxpayer money to do so.

Local catholic school system operates a very effective inner city school system. The children matriculate successfully to the best Catholic high schools. They also get scholarships to the three very best in state local non-denominational private schools - those that average 30-32 on the act. They end up in college. In large numbers. State money very well spent.

 

[Sendai]

Subpar school performance is often the result of unequal funding structures. In many areas, especially without strong federal support, school funding is tied to local tax bases—meaning wealthier cities and counties can afford better resources, while poorer urban and rural districts are left underfunded. These disadvantaged schools serve students who may already face significant challenges at home, including food insecurity, lack of access to healthcare, and limited parental support due to economic pressures.

Instead of addressing these disparities, school voucher programs make the problem worse. They siphon public funds away from struggling schools and redirect them to families who can already afford private school tuition. In practice, this drains resources from the students who need them most and further widens the gap between privileged and underprivileged children.

Funding isn’t unequal. Local urban network is brand new schools. Well paid teachers. Average 18-22 act. Except for the lone magnet school which is an average 30 act.

 

[MT15]

Local catholic school system operates a very effective inner city school system. The children matriculate successfully to the best Catholic high schools. They also get scholarships to the three very best in state local non-denominational private schools - those that average 30-32 on the act. They end up in college. In large numbers. State money very well spent.

Anecdotal at best. And you are ignoring facts. Kids who are special needs are ignored. Kids who have behavioral issues or learning disabilities will never see these wonderful schools you speak of.

Rural kids will never see these schools. What they will see, along with all the other kids who don’t manage to get a scholarship to a private school, is a hollowing out of public education funds to give the money to overwhelmingly affluent families.

 

[MT15]

Sendai, there are multiple, multiple studies that debunk what you are telling yourself about private schools. It’s telling that you want to do away with the agency who studies this stuff.

“The most crucial point should be addressed first: the high test scores observed from private school students are not a function of the schools, but rather other factors like socioeconomic status. The same NCES study that found higher standardized testing scores at private schools also found that when controlling for other factors of school success, including the percent of students eligible for free lunch, percent of students with a disability, and percent of students in the Title 1 program, private school score averages were not significantly higher than public school averages in grade four reading, grade four math, and grade eight math. Other studies generally corroborate this finding. One study compared whether a subject went to private school to their academic performance, social adjustment, and propensity for risky behavior in ninth grade. After controlling for family income, researchers found no statistically significant correlation. Another found that socioeconomic status plays a major role in determining educational outcomes. This makes sense: lower-income students face more barriers to academic success. Consider Melody Vidal, who was a high school senior when she started working at a Cinnabon in order to help her mom financially during the COVID-19 pandemic. In an interview, she said that “[her] biggest fear was being homeless.” Her situation is not unique: a quick Google search revealed an endless list of stories like hers. Time spent working takes away from the time one can dedicate to school and rest. As such, working students are more likely to struggle academically. This is just one example of the many struggles that low-income students face.”

There are multiple links to the actual studies in the above quote. The rest of the essay is here:

The Private School Myth — Davis Political Review

Virtually every child in America goes to school. Approximately 9% of these children attend a private school. These are schools that are not bound by state regulations and are privately funded, usually by charging tuition.

www.davispoliticalreview.com

 

[Sendai]

Anecdotal at best. And you are ignoring facts. Kids who are special needs are ignored. Kids who have behavioral issues or learning disabilities will never see these wonderful schools you speak of.

Rural kids will never see these schools. What they will see, along with all the other kids who don’t manage to get a scholarship to a private school, is a hollowing out of public education funds to give the money to overwhelmingly affluent families.

The catholic inner city system welcomes special needs and behavioral.

There aren’t that many overwhelmingly affluent families and they aren’t the ones taking state money.

It’s folks I know who are a family of four or five with an income range of 60k to 120k, or the single mom of two who now has an inner city catholic school providing breakfast, lunch, after school care and a good education.

The parents and the state are getting good value for the money.

 

[Sendai]

Sendai, there are multiple, multiple studies that debunk what you are telling yourself about private schools. It’s telling that you want to do away with the agency who studies this stuff.

“The most crucial point should be addressed first: the high test scores observed from private school students are not a function of the schools, but rather other factors like socioeconomic status. The same NCES study that found higher standardized testing scores at private schools also found that when controlling for other factors of school success, including the percent of students eligible for free lunch, percent of students with a disability, and percent of students in the Title 1 program, private school score averages were not significantly higher than public school averages in grade four reading, grade four math, and grade eight math. Other studies generally corroborate this finding. One study compared whether a subject went to private school to their academic performance, social adjustment, and propensity for risky behavior in ninth grade. After controlling for family income, researchers found no statistically significant correlation. Another found that socioeconomic status plays a major role in determining educational outcomes. This makes sense: lower-income students face more barriers to academic success. Consider Melody Vidal, who was a high school senior when she started working at a Cinnabon in order to help her mom financially during the COVID-19 pandemic. In an interview, she said that “[her] biggest fear was being homeless.” Her situation is not unique: a quick Google search revealed an endless list of stories like hers. Time spent working takes away from the time one can dedicate to school and rest. As such, working students are more likely to struggle academically. This is just one example of the many struggles that low-income students face.”

There are multiple links to the actual studies in the above quote. The rest of the essay is here:

The Private School Myth — Davis Political Review

Virtually every child in America goes to school. Approximately 9% of these children attend a private school. These are schools that are not bound by state regulations and are privately funded, usually by charging tuition.

www.davispoliticalreview.com

Studies by researchers that can’t fix education failures. The folks doing studies are too detached. I never run into them in the trenches.

 

[MT15]

Studies by researchers that can’t fix education failures. The folks doing studies are too detached. I never run into them in the trenches.

You cannot seriously really believe the stuff you are spouting, and then criticize actual scientific studies as being too detached. This level of gaslighting is rarely seen.

You know I respectfully asked you to disclose these magical school districts before, when you were spouting off all this stuff about how they are perfect. You didn’t. That’s your right, of course, but I am extremely skeptical of your pie-in-the-sky claims.

This fantastical school system(s) where you live are not the norm in any state that I am aware of. I would love the chance to read up on them.

Also, most school voucher programs are not means tested. Everybody gets the money. And studies have shown that the vast majority of the money goes to kids who were already enrolled in private schools. Almost no new kids are ever enrolled in private schools due to voucher money. In fact, so many private schools in one state who enacted vouchers immediately raised their tuition by the exact amount of the voucher that it made the national news last year. I don’t remember which state, but I’m sure I could find it. One member of administration at one of the private schools said this was a great opportunity for them to raise tuition.

 

[Sendai]

You cannot seriously really believe the stuff you are spouting, and then criticize actual scientific studies as being too detached. This level of gaslighting is rarely seen.

You know I respectfully asked you to disclose these magical school districts before, when you were spouting off all this stuff about how they are perfect. You didn’t. That’s your right, of course, but I am extremely skeptical of your pie-in-the-sky claims.

This fantastical school system(s) where you live are not the norm in any state that I am aware of. I would love the chance to read up on them.

Also, most school voucher programs are not means tested. Everybody gets the money. And studies have shown that the vast majority of the money goes to kids who were already enrolled in private schools. Almost no new kids are ever enrolled in private schools due to voucher money. In fact, so many private schools in one state who enacted vouchers immediately raised their tuition by the exact amount of the voucher that it made the national news last year. I don’t remember which state, but I’m sure I could find it. One member of administration at one of the private schools said this was a great opportunity for them to raise tuition.

A school district with a lone high performance magnet school and the rest at a sub par performance is hardly magical or perfect. The catholic inner city school system gives those in the district a much better opportunity.

And the distinction of Christian schools from Catholic is very real. While both are producing good results they function quite differently.

I, by the way, am a product of an education in catholic schools. But I did maintain my independence. And got a first rate education.

 

[MT15]

A school district with a lone high performance magnet school and the rest at a sub par performance is hardly magical or perfect. The catholic inner city school system gives those in the district a much better opportunity.

And the distinction of Christian schools from Catholic is very real. While both are producing good results they function quite differently.

I, by the way, am a product of an education in catholic schools. But I did maintain my independence. And got a first rate education.

I was talking about your magic private school district(s) that you keep touting. Not the public school district that you are now mentioning.

That’s fine for you to have attended private schools. I don’t mind people attending private religious schools. I just don’t want my tax dollars supporting them.

I have laid out in detail the reasons why there is disparity in test scores. They are well researched and accurate. What state legislatures have done is similar to what you have done - ignore the actual reasons and reward the schools who don’t need help with taxpayer money, which is taken away from schools who do need the help. It’s a system designed to leave poor disadvantaged and rural kids behind. It’s a system designed to cripple poor kids’ schools and then blame those schools for not achieving. Public schools have been punished by state legislatures for decades now. They were first punished with wildly divergent funding rates depending on location, as urban centers collapsed state legislatures didn’t take care of the local schools. Now all public schools are being punished with vouchers. Taking away the money that should be theirs and distributing it to affluent families.

Our public school system has been one of the main reasons the US has prospered over the past 60-70 years, even longer. Any kid could get a decent education, no matter his home situation. The GOP seems hell bent on destroying public education in the US, along with higher education, our medical research community and so much more.

This isn’t good for the country in any way, shape or form.

 

[Sendai]

“
The phrase "studies say" can sometimes be misleading because it can imply a certainty about scientific findings that may not be accurate. While research is valuable, it's important to remember that studies are not always conclusive and may have limitations or biases. Furthermore, different studies can reach different conclusions on the same topic, and the media may not always present the full picture.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

• Study Limitations:
  Studies often have specific populations, sample sizes, or methods that may limit their generalizability. For example, a study on one group of people may not apply to another group with different characteristics.
  
  
• Peer Review and Bias:
  While peer review is a crucial process in scientific publishing, it's not perfect. Peer review bias can occur where evaluators are not impartial, and studies may still be published with flaws.
  
  
• Media Presentation:
  The media often simplifies complex research findings, potentially leading to oversimplified or misleading conclusions.
  
  
• Confirmation Bias:
  People are prone to confirmation bias, where they seek out information that confirms their existing beliefs, even if the evidence is weak.
  

In short: While research is important, it's crucial to be skeptical of claims made based solely on "studies say" and to consider the potential limitations and biases associated with any study. ”

 

[Sendai]

I was talking about your magic private school district(s) that you keep touting. Not the public school district that you are now mentioning.

That’s fine for you to have attended private schools. I don’t mind people attending private religious schools. I just don’t want my tax dollars supporting them.

I have laid out in detail the reasons why there is disparity in test scores. They are well researched and accurate. What state legislatures have done is similar to what you have done - ignore the actual reasons and reward the schools who don’t need help with taxpayer money, which is taken away from schools who do need the help. It’s a system designed to leave poor disadvantaged and rural kids behind. It’s a system designed to cripple poor kids’ schools and then blame those schools for not achieving. Public schools have been punished by state legislatures for decades now. They were first punished with wildly divergent funding rates depending on location, as urban centers collapsed state legislatures didn’t take care of the local schools. Now all public schools are being punished with vouchers. Taking away the money that should be theirs and distributing it to affluent families.

Our public school system has been one of the main reasons the US has prospered over the past 60-70 years, even longer. Any kid could get a decent education, no matter his home situation. The GOP seems hell bent on destroying public education in the US, along with higher education, our medical research community and so much more.

This isn’t good for the country in any way, shape or form.

Suburban public school systems. Not so much urban inner city and rural.

All the school districts in my area are public. Not sure where you find a “ private school district”.

And Your “overwhelmingly affluent families” won’t qualify for vouchers in most states that offer them.

 

[TampaJoe]

So, if you want to go that route, then go that route. As of now, private schools are being used to enrich churches with taxpayer money, while they are not being held to the same standards as public schools.

Private schools are not required to take special needs students. If they have a difficult student, they can just refuse admission. In many cases private schools are not held to the same standards as public schools when it comes to faculty qualifications. In some states they have gone so far down the voucher rabbit hole that private schools receive more state money per student than public schools, which is insane.

Religious private schools sometimes spend a significant amount of classroom time on religious indoctrination. Daily classroom time on religious subjects. Which is fine, and their right, but they should never receive taxpayer money to do so.

Rural areas will suffer the most with this theft of taxpayer money to support religious schools. There won’t be any private schools to choose in rural areas, but the money their schools receive will be reduced as if there is a choice.

This is, as far as I am concerned, theft of taxpayer money in an unconstitutional manner used to support religions.

So if vouchers were used to send a kid to a non religious private institution, would you still have a problem? Not all private schools are religious.

As far as the qualifications of teachers and quality of curriculum, I think you could handle those issues in accreditation process. As far as special needs kids, I also think that issue can and should be addressed. Troubled kids are more difficult. Many times they aren’t interested and/or their parents don’t care. I am interested in offering kids and parent who want something better an option to a failing public institution. It doesn’t make sense to me to hold back kids and families who want better because other kids and their families don’t want to go along. You can lead a horse to water as they say.

 

[MT15]

“
The phrase "studies say" can sometimes be misleading because it can imply a certainty about scientific findings that may not be accurate. While research is valuable, it's important to remember that studies are not always conclusive and may have limitations or biases. Furthermore, different studies can reach different conclusions on the same topic, and the media may not always present the full picture.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

• Study Limitations:
  Studies often have specific populations, sample sizes, or methods that may limit their generalizability. For example, a study on one group of people may not apply to another group with different characteristics.
  
  
• Peer Review and Bias:
  While peer review is a crucial process in scientific publishing, it's not perfect. Peer review bias can occur where evaluators are not impartial, and studies may still be published with flaws.
  
  
• Media Presentation:
  The media often simplifies complex research findings, potentially leading to oversimplified or misleading conclusions.
  
  
• Confirmation Bias:
  People are prone to confirmation bias, where they seek out information that confirms their existing beliefs, even if the evidence is weak.

In short: While research is important, it's crucial to be skeptical of claims made based solely on "studies say" and to consider the potential limitations and biases associated with any study. ”

Take your googled primer on science and shove it. You’re talking to someone who spent my entire career in science. Your arrogance and condescension is laughable, but not unexpected.

If you have any actual specific issues with the studies I linked - have at it. I provided the links so that you could take a look if you so desire. When you see several studies all showing the same thing, it’s called reproducibility and it forms one of the building blocks of the scientific method.

Oh, and you, who have dismissed these studies out of hand because you don’t like what they found, might want to read up on confirmation bias yourself.

 

[MT15]

So if vouchers were used to send a kid to a non religious private institution, would you still have a problem? Not all private schools are religious.

As far as the qualifications of teachers and quality of curriculum, I think you could handle those issues in accreditation process. As far as special needs kids, I also think that issue can and should be addressed. Troubled kids are more difficult. Many times they aren’t interested and/or their parents don’t care. I am interested in offering kids and parent who want something better an option to a failing public institution. It doesn’t make sense to me to hold back kids and families who want better because other kids and their families don’t want to go along. You can lead a horse to water as they say.

I wouldn’t have as much of a problem maybe. But I still wouldn’t like it. Public money is for public schools.

If these state legislatures had linked school vouchers with additional oversight of these schools, requirements that they take special needs kids, regulations on faculty qualifications, that would have been better.

School vouchers don’t lead to more kids being able to attend private schools, not in any significant number. That’s how they sell the idea. It’s not how it works in practice. Especially when the schools take the passage of vouchers as an opportunity to raise tuition. IIRC, the average voucher is about $8k, which is less than half the average tuition to a private school. Poor kids are left out. Rural kids are left out. Kids with special needs are left out.

From this (emphasis mine):

How vouchers harm public schools: Calculating the cost of voucher programs to public school districts

Overview What this report is about Voucher programs for schools are rapidly expanding across the country. Under these programs, public budgets provide funding to parents to either send their children to private school or homeschool them. These programs’ growing popularity raises the question of...

www.epi.org

“While additional costs to provide quality education are not a problem in itself, (and we at EPI are huge advocates of increasing funding for public schools), study after study has found that voucher programs do not improve student achievement and, hence, are not a cost-effective way to spend any additional dollars that states or localities are willing to commit to K–12 education. In three states that enacted voucher programs —Louisiana, Indiana, and Ohio, researchers assessed student test scores in periods following program enactment and found that academic performance worsened.2

Students in Louisiana’s Scholarship voucher program experienced declining achievement in both language arts and mathematics during their first two years in the program (Mills and Wolf 2023). Similarly, Waddington and Berends (2018) found that voucher students in the Indiana Choice Scholarship voucher program experienced declining achievement in mathematics one year after attending private school. Under the Ed Choice Program in Ohio, voucher students who previously attended high-performing public schools performed worse than they would have had they remained in public school (Figlio and Karbownick 2016).

Instead of boosting student achievement in equitable and cost-effective ways, voucher programs generally end up putting large new demands on state and local budgets and increase the cost of educating students who remain in public school. In Arizona for example, where 75% of voucher program users are already in private school (SOS 2024), legislators grossly underestimated the cost of voucher programs—by tenfold. The voucher program was initially projected to cost $65 million in 2023 but actually cost upwards of $708 million. Because of these overruns, Arizona’s voucher policy is now leading to a state budget crisis (Hager 2024).”

Also:
There are 11 states with essentially no means tests. Meaning the vast majority of the kids in that state qualify for vouchers. It’s not a majority but it’s not rare. And guess which way the trend is going? Oh, and shocker, AZ is one of them.