Law Enforcement Reform Thread (formerly Defund the Police) (1 Viewer)

[First Time Poster]

So I got busy the other day with the intention to revisit this topic and answer some of the responses put forward but I realized the thread was deleted. But, I felt we had good dialogue happening before I left so I wanted to restart the topic to get the conversation going again. We started some dialogue about it on the liberal board but I feel this topic transcends party lines so I'm making a MCB thread. Post #2, or my next post, is the post I made on the liberal board when asked to elaborate how I felt.

 

[MT15]

That Washington Post article doesn't change the point that I've repeatedly made about Walker starting the shootout being the fatal error. In my opinion, the cops should not have raided Taylor's home, and they made other mistakes, but it was a legal raid. Whether they executed a no-knock or not, I still find it hard to believe that they didn't announce themselves as police once inside, and I find it irresponsible to start shooting at people without demanding they announce themselves. Even after they announced themselves, Walker could've further demanded IDs.

You blame a civilian, armed and scared to death, watching armed men violently break in to stop and say “who are you?” He did that once already and didn’t get a response, but you would expect him to ask again. I think you may also be assuming this all didn’t transpire in a few seconds.

To blame this horrible series of events on him is just crazy, IMO. The police are supposed to be the professionals in this and they were completely irresponsible and an innocent woman is dead.

 

[Lapaz]

Sure he could have demanded anything, and got shot while doing so....why is it so hard to believe the police didn't identify themselves adequately? You seem hung up on that one issue.

My feeling is the way the local police department/judicial system has handled this case is beyond disturbing. Offering immunity to the ex-boyfriend to testify that Taylor was part of his drug operations?

I don't trust them one bit to bring justice and do the job they are supposed to do. Their only interest is protecting themselves.....

I agree that there are many disturbing elements to how this was handled. It indicates incompetence, and in the case of the outside cop shooting blindly, wanton disregard for life. That doesn't make the other cops criminals. It also doesn't excuse, in my opinion, Walker from initiating the shooting.

It is hard to believe the police didn't identify themselves, because I don't think they want to get in a shootout. I'm of the opinion that most cops are trying to do the right thing, and most suspects are not. I know there are bad cops, and I've dealt with them, but bad is a relative term. Bad for a cop is usually much less bad than bad for a criminal. A bad cop usually abuses his authority to the point of occasionally killing someone suspected of being bad (~1000/year), while a bad criminal usually kills people (~10,000/year) often knowing they are completely innocent. I hold cops to a higher standard of behavior, and I believe that standard rationally includes announcing themselves when raiding a home to avoid an armed conflict.

 

[MT15]

Who was the criminal in this situation?

 

[Lapaz]

You blame a civilian, armed and scared to death, watching armed men violently break in to stop and say “who are you?” He did that once already and didn’t get a response, but you would expect him to ask again. I think you may also be assuming this all didn’t transpire in a few seconds.

To blame this horrible series of events on him is just crazy, IMO. The police are supposed to be the professionals in this and they were completely irresponsible and an innocent woman is dead.

You believe Walker asked "who are you". I don't believe that. I believe the cops announced themselves, especially after they entered the property. It doesn't make sense that they wouldn't have done so, but there is no way to know the truth. I can only speculate based on what I believe is logical. The only cop that was irresponsible for sure was the outside cop that shot through the blinds. The others may have been, and I believe probably were, professional.

 

[coldseat]

That Washington Post article doesn't change the point that I've repeatedly made about Walker starting the shootout being the fatal error. In my opinion, the cops should not have raided Taylor's home, and they made other mistakes, but it was a legal raid. Whether they executed a no-knock or not, I still find it hard to believe that they didn't announce themselves as police once inside, and I find it irresponsible to start shooting at people without demanding they announce themselves. Even after they announced themselves, Walker could've further demanded IDs.

You reasoning an belief that police loudly announced themselves and Walker knew who he was shooting at just doesn't pass mustard and isn't believable. You're holding on to that belief because it's what your whole reasoning stands on.

Walker shot his gun one time. The police returned a hail of gunfire. The police obviously didn't know who they where shooting at, since they didn't even know he was in the apartment. And for the ultimate irony, Walker called 911, the very people who where busting in on them and had just killed his girlfriend, during the incident for protection. Either the dude didn't know who the men in plain clothes where that were breaking into his apartment, or he's genius level and unbelievably calculating in trying to get out of tight legal spot while his girlfriend is dying in front of him.

Sometimes is just best to admit you're wrong and let a bad argument rest instead of continuing to show how beholden you are to a poorly substantiated belief.

 

[brandon]

By that justification, every no-knock warrant should justifiably result in a shootout. They exist to prevent evidence from being destroyed and to reduce the likelihood of shootouts, but you believe emptying your magazine is justified and no other response is merited. I guess we just have a difference of opinion.

Additional thoughts:

Realistically, if someone kicks in your door at 3AM, I suppose there's only two things it could be, right? Either it's someone who intends to do great harm to you, or it's the police.

If the intruders don't identify themselves, are you supposed to wait around to try and guess who it might be? If you guess wrong, you're probably the one who's dead.

 

[coldseat]

I agree that there are many disturbing elements to how this was handled. It indicates incompetence, and in the case of the outside cop shooting blindly, wanton disregard for life. That doesn't make the other cops criminals. It also doesn't excuse, in my opinion, Walker from initiating the shooting.

It is hard to believe the police didn't identify themselves, because I don't think they want to get in a shootout. I'm of the opinion that most cops are trying to do the right thing, and most suspects are not. I know there are bad cops, and I've dealt with them, but bad is a relative term. Bad for a cop is usually much less bad than bad for a criminal. A bad cop usually abuses his authority to the point of occasionally killing someone suspected of being bad (~1000/year), while a bad criminal usually kills people (~10,000/year) often knowing they are completely innocent. I hold cops to a higher standard of behavior, and I believe that standard rationally includes announcing themselves when raiding a home to avoid an armed conflict.

I don't know why this needs to continue to be said, but WALKER WAS NOT A SUSTPECT. WALKER IS NOT A CRIMINAL. He had no bad intentions. You can choose to believe police all you want, but what you believe is not substantiated by the facts in the case.

 

[MT15]

From the WaPo piece, there is only one witness who heard the police announce themselves outside the apartment, and he said twice that he didn’t hear them announce themselves before he changes his story. Even he says it’s entirely possible Walker and Taylor didn’t hear the announcement.

“The New York Times interviewed 12 neighbors. They found one — just one — who heard an announcement. And he only heard one announcement. He also told the paper that with all the commotion, it’s entirely possible that Walker and Taylor didn’t hear that announcement. Cameron neglected to mention any of this.

Moreover, in a CNN interview Wednesday night, Walker’s attorney, Steven Romines, said the witness to whom Cameron was referring initially said he did not hear the police announce themselves. And he repeated that assertion in a second interview. It was only after his third interview that he finally said he heard an announcement. That’s critical context that Cameron neglected to mention.”

also from the same piece:

“Walker admits he fired first. But he says he fired only after he and Taylor repeatedly asked who was pounding at the door, got no answer, and after a battering ram busted open the door.”

 

[CoolBrees]

I don’t own a gun but what happened to Breonna Taylor is literally the exact situation I hear from gun proponents all the time as to why they have not just A gun but multiple guns with tons of ammo. To protect from home invasion.

After reading the article MT15 posted, I can’t understand how anyone would not think that her boyfriend opened fire to protect their home.

As someone else aptly pointed out only two types are beating down your door at that hour. And if you are a law abiding citizen like these two were then if leaves one option. I don’t expect the police to kick in my door. Why should they? They weren’t guilty of anything. So couple that with plain clothes, her ex-boyfriend’s history, and the fact he called 911 and I don’t see how you can put ANY blame, much less criminal on him.

I get why the officers were not charged like I would have like to see. The law is the law. But that is why this is a SYSTEMIC problem. This shouldn’t have been a legal accident. There should be real consequences for multiple individuals in multiple roles. This is a symptom of the disease. Breonna was a victim of a broken system that polices Blacks different than whites.

 

[JimEverett]

Breonna was a victim of a broken system that polices Blacks different than whites.

I agree with everything you wrote up until this point. I am not sure I understand why this is an example of different policing methods against blacks.

 

[CoolBrees]

@JimEverett -

That’s fair. I wasn’t really supporting that point with my argument. I frankly leave those arguments to the experts who have shown time and time again how these systems operate in reality.

I see it as a system that allows for loopholes and get arounds for police and these consistently and disproportionately affecting Blacks. I was pontificating on the system as a whole. Again Breonna’s death was a symptom of a greater disease that affects Blacks to a greater degree. Was the system intentionally set up that way? I am not educated enough on the subject to make an argument one way or the other. Intentional or not, it was and is the outcome.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Additional thoughts:

Realistically, if someone kicks in your door at 3AM, I suppose there's only two things it could be, right? Either it's someone who intends to do great harm to you, or it's the police.

If the intruders don't identify themselves, are you supposed to wait around to try and guess who it might be? If you guess wrong, you're probably the one who's dead.

I would add that Taylor and Walker had done nothing wrong and had no reason to believe they were suspected of anything, which means they had no reason to believe the police would break down their door in the middle of the night. At that point, the only logical assumption is that it is someone intent on doing you harm.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

I hold cops to a higher standard of behavior, and I believe that standard rationally includes announcing themselves when raiding a home to avoid an armed conflict.

In my opinion, the cops should not have raided Taylor's home, and they made other mistakes, but it was a legal raid.

You clearly are not holding the police to a higher standard if you can admit that they made mistakes, including raiding a home in the middle of the night that they should not have raided, yet still place blame on the person living there for acting in self-defense.

 

[Lapaz]

You reasoning an belief that police loudly announced themselves and Walker knew who he was shooting at just doesn't pass mustard and isn't believable. You're holding on to that belief because it's what your whole reasoning stands on.

Walker shot his gun one time. The police returned a hail of gunfire. The police obviously didn't know who they where shooting at, since they didn't even know he was in the apartment. And for the ultimate irony, Walker called 911, the very people who where busting in on them and had just killed his girlfriend, during the incident for protection. Either the dude didn't know who the men in plain clothes where that were breaking into his apartment, or he's genius level and unbelievably calculating in trying to get out of tight legal spot while his girlfriend is dying in front of him.

Sometimes is just best to admit you're wrong and let a bad argument rest instead of continuing to show how beholden you are to a poorly substantiated belief.

I've never read anywhere how many times Walker shot, but there were 2 cops shot. Were those friendly fire?

 

[Lapaz]

You clearly are not holding the police to a higher standard if you can admit that they made mistakes, including raiding a home in the middle of the night that they should not have raided, yet still place blame on the person living there for acting in self-defense.

I've never said that the police shouldn't be held accountable, but that doesn't include being charged for murdering Taylor. The police made some mistakes, but Walker started the gunfight, which led to Taylor becoming a victim in that gunfight.

 

[JimEverett]

I would add that Taylor and Walker had done nothing wrong and had no reason to believe they were suspected of anything, which means they had no reason to believe the police would break down their door in the middle of the night. At that point, the only logical assumption is that it is someone intent on doing you harm.

Agreed. Again, still don;t like the service of a warrant if served on actual, experienced, violent, drug traffickers - but when it is a totally innocent person it really is apparent that it is unreasonable to expect someone not to try to defend themselves in the middle of the night when someone beats down the door to your house.

 

[coldseat]

I agree with everything you wrote up until this point. I am not sure I understand why this is an example of different policing methods against blacks.

I have no real knowledge or data to back this up, so it is purely speculation, but it is possible (and I would say likely) an area where a difference shows up along racial lines might be in the warrant application process. Are warrants for black people more easily and summarily approved than for white people? Is more inaccurate and speculative information included in warrants for black people than for white people? Is there a higher bar to seeking a warrant for a white person than a black person.

Obviously, it would required in in depth study of information that might not be available to researchers. So we may never truly know the answer to a questions like this. But I do believe it is entirely plausible to believe this had an effect given what we know about over areas of our law enforcement and justice system.

Also, while there is nothing obviously overt about the officers actions that would indicate that they acted purely along racial lines or with some sort of racial animus, it is possible that there is prior racial bias/belief that would lead them to take such and aggressive/violent approach to serving this warrant.

But as you said, this isn't the case that I would use as an example of different policing methods against blacks. It is more so and example of, bad/corrupt policing practices that lead to the death of American citizens and which is more often concentrated and has a greater effect in black and minority communities.

 

[V Chip]

You believe Walker asked "who are you". I don't believe that. I believe the cops announced themselves, especially after they entered the property. It doesn't make sense that they wouldn't have done so, but there is no way to know the truth. I can only speculate based on what I believe is logical. The only cop that was irresponsible for sure was the outside cop that shot through the blinds. The others may have been, and I believe probably were, professional.

The vast majority of witnesses did not hear the police announce themselves. The one person who said he did told a conflicting story two prior times. The criminologist who embedded with the LPD said if they do announce, they time their announcement for the first swing of the battering ram's contact with the door. So why is it so hard to believe they didn't announce, or if they did, did it in a way that was easily overwhelmed with other noise and thus not audible?