Law Enforcement Reform Thread (formerly Defund the Police) (2 Viewers)

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    So I got busy the other day with the intention to revisit this topic and answer some of the responses put forward but I realized the thread was deleted. But, I felt we had good dialogue happening before I left so I wanted to restart the topic to get the conversation going again. We started some dialogue about it on the liberal board but I feel this topic transcends party lines so I'm making a MCB thread. Post #2, or my next post, is the post I made on the liberal board when asked to elaborate how I felt.
     
    I've never said that the police shouldn't be held accountable, but that doesn't include being charged for murdering Taylor. The police made some mistakes, but Walker started the gunfight, which led to Taylor becoming a victim in that gunfight.

    I haven't seen anybody here argue that the policemen should have been charged with murder. But they where negligent in carrying out the warrant and that lead to Taylor's death, not Walker firing first as you keep insisting. I can't say they are guilty of murder because I don't know (nor do I believe) that they intended to kill Taylor or Walker. But that doesn't mean they aren't criminally responsible on some level for her death.

    What people do believe is that there has been a miscarriage of justice and that her killers do not have to face the consequences of their actions.
     
    I've never read anywhere how many times Walker shot, but there were 2 cops shot. Were those friendly fire?

    I've only read that one cop was shot.

    Sergeant Mattingly said that as soon as the door was punched in and he cleared the threshold, he could see to the end of the long hallway. There, in silhouette, he saw a male and a female figure. The man’s hands were stretched out, holding an object.

    “As we’re coming to the door, the door, like, comes off the hinges,” Mr. Walker said. “It’s like an explosion.” He went on: They were scared. He thought someone was breaking in. He was trying to protect his girlfriend. “So, boom, one shot. Then all of a sudden there’s a whole lot of shots,” he said. “I just hear her screaming.”

    Kentucky law is clear: Under the stand-your-ground statute, citizens can use deadly force against an intruder inside their own home. But like numerous other jurisdictions, Kentucky also has a statute protecting police officers who use deadly force in self-defense.

    Sometime between 12:41 and 12:42 a.m. according to call logs, the rights guaranteed by those statutes clashed.
    “As soon as the shot hit, I could feel the heat in my leg,” Sergeant Mattingly recounted in his statement. “And so I just returned fire,” he said, adding that he shot at least four rounds immediately, and another two soon after. Behind him, Detective Cosgrove also returned fire into the hallway, according to police statements.

    The bullet tore through the sergeant’s thigh, piercing the femoral artery. He scooted out onto the breezeway, then stumbled into the parking lot, where he collapsed, he recalled.

    Meanwhile, a barrage of bullets ripped into the apartment from another direction. Detective Hankison had left the formation near the door, run into the parking lot and begun firing through the covered patio door and window, according to police records.
    Unlike the two officers standing in the doorway, the 44-year-old detective probably has no self-defense claim, several local officials said. The bullets he shot from the parking lot tore diagonally through Ms. Taylor’s apartment and into Apartment 3 directly behind it, where a pregnant woman and a 5-year-old were sleeping.

    His behavior was reckless, the department concluded, because he shot 10 rounds blindly, and it was not directed against someone who posed an immediate threat. He was fired in June. “I find your conduct to be a shock to the conscience,” the interim police chief said in a termination letter.
    In nearly two decades with the department, Detective Hankison had received multiple complaints of excessive use of force as well as sexual misconduct, according to portions of his personnel file obtained by The Times. Most of the complaints appear to have been dismissed or not considered credible.

    One record showed he was reprimanded at least three times: for improperly charging a man with having a concealed weapon in 2005; for trying to extract crack cocaine from a suspect’s mouth and failing to call an ambulance; and for causing a car wreck in 2016 that fractured the spine of another officer.

    He and the two other officers involved in the shooting could not be reached for comment. Sergeant Mattingly and Detective Cosgrove have been placed on administrative leave, according to a department spokeswoman, Jessie Halladay.

    Mr. Walker was charged with attempted murder for shooting Sergeant Mattingly; the charges were later dropped.
    Because no ambulance had been staged, the police spent the next critical minutes trying to get medical help for the injured officer.
    “I kept going, ‘Where’s E.M.S.?’” said Sergeant Mattingly.

    Radio logs paint a scene of chaos. An ambulance rushing to the apartment complex went to the wrong entrance, blocked by a locked gate. On the radio, officers yelled instructions to ram the vehicle through the gate. But the ambulance didn’t get past the crushed metal. Colleagues tried to put Sergeant Mattingly in the back seat of a squad car, but he couldn’t bend his leg. They tried to put him in the trunk, but it was blocked by a gun case. Finally, they laid him atop the trunk.

    As officers outside scrambled to help him, no aid was rendered to Ms. Taylor. It wasn’t until 12:47 a.m. that emergency personnel realized that she was seriously wounded, after her boyfriend called 911.

    “I don’t know what’s happening. Someone kicked in the door and shot my girlfriend,” Mr. Walker cried on a recorded call to 911.

    When the operator asked if the young woman was alert and able to speak, he said: “No, she’s not,” and then, “Oh my God. Oh my God.”

     
    I agree that there are many disturbing elements to how this was handled. It indicates incompetence, and in the case of the outside cop shooting blindly, wanton disregard for life. That doesn't make the other cops criminals. It also doesn't excuse, in my opinion, Walker from initiating the shooting.

    It is hard to believe the police didn't identify themselves, because I don't think they want to get in a shootout. I'm of the opinion that most cops are trying to do the right thing, and most suspects are not. I know there are bad cops, and I've dealt with them, but bad is a relative term. Bad for a cop is usually much less bad than bad for a criminal. A bad cop usually abuses his authority to the point of occasionally killing someone suspected of being bad (~1000/year), while a bad criminal usually kills people (~10,000/year) often knowing they are completely innocent. I hold cops to a higher standard of behavior, and I believe that standard rationally includes announcing themselves when raiding a home to avoid an armed conflict.

    This may be the most tone deaf response I've ever experienced. To me bad cops that go all gun happy on innocent folks are worse than criminals, cops are supposed to serve and protect, add in the incredible, unfair, unjust protections they operate under and you get what we have today. The notion that you hold cops to a higher standard of behavior is laughable at best....
     
    I've only read that one cop was shot.



    I was mistaken about 2 cops being shot during the raid, and Walker did shoot just once. I must've been confusing the shooting of a couple of cops during the protests. The NYT story said:

    " After the police broke the door off its hinges, Mr. Walker fired his gun once, striking Sergeant Mattingly in a thigh. The police responded by firing several shots, striking Ms. Taylor five times. One of the three officers on the scene, Detective Brett Hankison, who has since been fired, shot 10 rounds blindly into the apartment. "

    Hankinson is the one that was charged. Doesn't change my position that Walker acted improperly by initiating the gun fight. No one should ever fire upon another person without confirming that that person is going to hurt them. I understand the fear, jumping to a conclusion, and the legal right, but I don't agree with the action.
     
    The vast majority of witnesses did not hear the police announce themselves. The one person who said he did told a conflicting story two prior times. The criminologist who embedded with the LPD said if they do announce, they time their announcement for the first swing of the battering ram's contact with the door. So why is it so hard to believe they didn't announce, or if they did, did it in a way that was easily overwhelmed with other noise and thus not audible?
    After midnight, it wouldn't be hard to believe that no neighbors heard the announcements. I might not wake up until the cops had been banging on the door for 30 seconds, and I might not wake up at all if the banging was on my neighbor's house. Once inside the premises, it is a completely different matter. I've stated that there is a legit question about whether they announced themselves before entering, although I believe they probably did, and people slept through it, but I do believe they probably announced themselves after they entered. I believe Walker said they didn't to prevent being charged. No one knows for sure, but I stand by my belief that the cops probably announced themselves to prevent getting into a gun fight.
     
    After midnight, it wouldn't be hard to believe that no neighbors heard the announcements. I might not wake up until the cops had been banging on the door for 30 seconds, and I might not wake up at all if the banging was on my neighbor's house. Once inside the premises, it is a completely different matter. I've stated that there is a legit question about whether they announced themselves before entering, although I believe they probably did, and people slept through it, but I do believe they probably announced themselves after they entered. I believe Walker said they didn't to prevent being charged. No one knows for sure, but I stand by my belief that the cops probably announced themselves to prevent getting into a gun fight.
    So the neighbors would report that they heard the knocking but then couldn't hear the announcement?

    Your belief strains credulity.
     
    ... but I do believe they probably announced themselves after they entered. I believe Walker said they didn't to prevent being charged. No one knows for sure, but I stand by my belief that the cops probably announced themselves to prevent getting into a gun fight.
    Why do you believe that??? The police lied to obtain their warrant which gives them more motivation to lie about the night of the murder. They also tried to coerce false testimony against Taylor to demonize her, but yet you are willing to believe their account over the boyfriend's who, as far as we know, is a law abiding citizen.

    By all accounts, Walker had no idea who busted in their door and it is clear of that because he called 911 to report the shooting. Why would he call 911 for help if he knew the police were already there?

     
    So the neighbors would report that they heard the knocking but then couldn't hear the announcement?

    Your belief strains credulity.
    Here is the apartment complex where she was killed.

    You're saying officers were beating on one of those four doors and -- according to your belief -- announcing they are police loud enough so occupants inside the apartment can hear them, but no neighbors in the three apartments immediately adjacent to the front door would (not to mention others in the complex)?
    30572340-8506223-image-a-21_1594302572814.jpg


    1601059619409.png
     
    That castle doctrine is why Walker wasn't prosecuted, but I believe shooting without knowing who you're shooting at is irresponsible and wrong.
    No one should ever fire upon another person without confirming that that person is going to hurt them. I understand the fear, jumping to a conclusion, and the legal right, but I don't agree with the action.
    What are your thoughts on the instances in which police use lethal force, just because they thought they saw a weapon, before taking the time to confirm that the person was going to hurt them or finding out who that person was?

    You have said on multiple occasions you hold police to a higher standard.
     
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    So the neighbors would report that they heard the knocking but then couldn't hear the announcement?

    Your belief strains credulity.
    My understanding is that only 1 neighbor heard anything. In any event, I think whether they announced outside or not is secondary to what happened when the cops entered. They may have entered no-knock or knock, but given the time of day, I don't think that affected much. Whether it was treated as a no-knock or a knock, I don't believe that changes what they would do once they entered the premises. What matters is whether they announced themselves once they entered the premises, and I don't expect neighbors to hear that. I doubt the police did not announce themselves, because that creates a situation that is even more dangerous than the no-knock warrant itself.
     
    My understanding is that only 1 neighbor heard anything. In any event, I think whether they announced outside or not is secondary to what happened when the cops entered. They may have entered no-knock or knock, but given the time of day, I don't think that affected much. Whether it was treated as a no-knock or a knock, I don't believe that changes what they would do once they entered the premises. What matters is whether they announced themselves once they entered the premises, and I don't expect neighbors to hear that. I doubt the police did not announce themselves, because that creates a situation that is even more dangerous than the no-knock warrant itself.

    What makes the police- who you already admitted should not have been serving a warrant there in the first place- inherently trustworthy in your narrative?
     
    My understanding is that only 1 neighbor heard anything. In any event, I think whether they announced outside or not is secondary to what happened when the cops entered. They may have entered no-knock or knock, but given the time of day, I don't think that affected much. Whether it was treated as a no-knock or a knock, I don't believe that changes what they would do once they entered the premises. What matters is whether they announced themselves once they entered the premises, and I don't expect neighbors to hear that. I doubt the police did not announce themselves, because that creates a situation that is even more dangerous than the no-knock warrant itself.

    But that is exactly what they did. If they announced once, when they first banged on the door and both Walker and Taylor were asleep. Thereby waking them up and them not hearing who it was banging at the door, because it happned at the same time and they where asleep. The police continue to pound on the door. Walker and Taylor jumping out of bed, getting dressed and screaming who's at the door. The police not answering the continuing to bang on the door. Then busting through the door the battering ram.

    The created exactly the situation that your are saying is even more dangerous. I don't see how you can't see that.
     
    Why do you believe that??? The police lied to obtain their warrant which gives them more motivation to lie about the night of the murder. They also tried to coerce false testimony against Taylor to demonize her, but yet you are willing to believe their account over the boyfriend's who, as far as we know, is a law abiding citizen.

    By all accounts, Walker had no idea who busted in their door and it is clear of that because he called 911 to report the shooting. Why would he call 911 for help if he knew the police were already there?


    Did the police lie to obtain the warrant? I mean, is there proof for this or just another false 'fact'? Because if they did lie to obtain the warrant, then the grand jury must not have been presented with that information because that puts criminal charges on the police that requested and possibly the police that executed the warrant if that office knew the warrant was obtained under illegal pretenses. That is a major part of this case if true and not presented to the GJ.
     
    Did the police lie to obtain the warrant? I mean, is there proof for this or just another false 'fact'? Because if they did lie to obtain the warrant, then the grand jury must not have been presented with that information because that puts criminal charges on the police that requested and possibly the police that executed the warrant if that office knew the warrant was obtained under illegal pretenses. That is a major part of this case if true and not presented to the GJ.
    It's a FACT.
    9.) Affiant verified through a US Postal Inspector that Jamarcus Glover has been receiving packages at 3003 Springfield Drive #4.

    Affiant knows through training and experience that it is not uncommon for drug traffickers to receive mail
    packages at different locations to avoid detection from law enforcement.

    Affiant believes through training and experience, that Mr. J. Glover may be keeping narcotics and/or proceeds from the sale of narcotics at 3003 Springfield Drive #4 for safe keeping.
    The above is from the search warrant affidavit and it is a LIE.

    LOUISVILLE, Ky. (WDRB) – A U.S. postal inspector in Louisville said Metro police did not use his office to verify that a drug suspect was receiving packages at Breonna Taylor's apartment, one of the factors listed in officers' request for a "no-knock" warrant for her home.

    But Tony Gooden said a different law enforcement agency asked his office in January to investigate whether Taylor's home was receiving any potentially suspicious mail. After looking into the request, he said, the local office concluded that it wasn't.

    "There's no packages of interest going there," he said in an interview after WDRB News contacted him Friday.

    That was their sole reason for obtaining a warrant for her residence and I guarantee you that information was not presented to the grand jury because the AG wasn't presenting a case for prosecution to the grand jury, it was a defense case.
     
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    It's a FACT.

    The above is from the search warrant affidavit and it is a LIE.



    That was their sole reason for obtaining a warrant for her residence and I guarantee you that information was not presented to the grand jury because the AG wasn't presenting a case for prosecution to the grand jury, it was a defense case.
    I don't think it was the sole reason for the warrant. Where did you read that?
    The article you posted even says that this information was one of the factors leading to the warrant.

    Nonetheless, I think it is very important.
    There was an investigative report released but I haven't seen it. I wonder what it said about the warrant affidavit.
     
    I don't think it was the sole reason for the warrant. Where did you read that?
    The article you posted even says that this information was one of the factors leading to the warrant.

    Nonetheless, I think it is very important.
    There was an investigative report released but I haven't seen it. I wonder what it said about the warrant affidavit.
    I got from reading the actual warrant and its accompanying affidavit.

    Without that particular statement there is no probable cause to search her residence.
     

    Attachments

    • Breonna-Taylor-search-warrants.pdf
      1.5 MB · Views: 127
    I do believe they probably announced themselves after they entered. I believe Walker said they didn't to prevent being charged.
    But you have no evidence to support that belief other than the officers’ word.

    It would seem this belief is really just a defense mechanism to allow you to believe that the police didn’t do anything wrong and that Taylor’s death was a natural result of Walker’s actions.

    But if you take a minute to entertain the possibility that your unsubstantiated belief might not be true, then you’ll see that Walker’s actions were perfectly justified and the logical response to a home invasion.
     

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