Law Enforcement Reform Thread (formerly Defund the Police) (5 Viewers)

[First Time Poster]

So I got busy the other day with the intention to revisit this topic and answer some of the responses put forward but I realized the thread was deleted. But, I felt we had good dialogue happening before I left so I wanted to restart the topic to get the conversation going again. We started some dialogue about it on the liberal board but I feel this topic transcends party lines so I'm making a MCB thread. Post #2, or my next post, is the post I made on the liberal board when asked to elaborate how I felt.

 

[insidejob]

The Biden thread has turned into a police thread so I figured I'd post this here.

At least Houston is doing it right. Even if after the fact. Should have happened a lot sooner but ultimately did, so that's what matters.

4 Houston police officers fired after shooting man on the ground 21 times during alleged mental health crisis

Four Houston police officers were fired Thursday after a months-long investigation of a fatal shooting found that they were "objectively unreasonable" in discharging 21 rounds at a man in distress. Officers approached Nicolas Chavez, 27, in a parking lot, where he was running while holding a...

www.yahoo.com

 

[Dragon]

First the Sheriff’s Office generates lists of people it considers likely to break the law, based on arrest histories, unspecified intelligence and arbitrary decisions by police analysts.

Then it sends deputies to find and interrogate anyone whose name appears, often without probable cause, a search warrant or evidence of a specific crime.

https://projects.tampabay.com/proje...o-sheriff-targeted/intelligence-led-policing/

Minority report anyone?

 

[LA - L.A.]

https://projects.tampabay.com/proje...o-sheriff-targeted/intelligence-led-policing/

Minority report anyone?

Only if Minority Report had used a 20 sided dice and the law enforcement equivalent of D&D results tables, instead of precognitives. All they're doing here is playing the odds using questionable statistics and calculations, which is worse than using precognitives. At least precognitives are seeing the actual future and not just making "educated" guesses. No one should ever be treated as a criminal based on "educated" guesses.

Another poster on another site mentioned how he was involved with setting up a similar system that parole officers used to alert them of activity that might indicate a parolee needs more constructive intervention and support, but that was meant to help parolees. It wasn't used to harass them. That makes sense and seems productive to me. This seems like more systemic racism trying to hide under the cover of science and math.

 

[Ayo]

They are using algorithms to set bail and the AI ends up being racist because the programmers are using racist data. So seemingly non-human, objective intervention ends up being anything but.

and the beat goes on

 

[Eeyore]

Officer caught on body camera saying 'let's get these motherf******' at George Floyd protests

The footage also shows an officer hitting a fleeing man with a motorcycle

www.independent.co.uk

 

[wardorican]

Read this thread about LASD brutality and being infiltrated by gangs.

 

[Rob22278]

Minneapolis City Council Members Complain of Rising Crime Months after Trying to Defund Police Department

Minneapolis City Council members complained of rising crime rates in the city and asked the city’s police chief what he is doing about it during a Tuesday meeting on police reform, months after the council proposed dismantling the police department.Council members told police chief Medaria...

news.yahoo.com

Crime up in Minneapolis? No way. How did this happen???
Those violence interruptors aren’t doing their job.

 

[Ayo]

Minneapolis City Council Members Complain of Rising Crime Months after Trying to Defund Police Department

Minneapolis City Council members complained of rising crime rates in the city and asked the city’s police chief what he is doing about it during a Tuesday meeting on police reform, months after the council proposed dismantling the police department.Council members told police chief Medaria...

news.yahoo.com

Crime up in Minneapolis? No way. How did this happen???
Those violence interruptors aren’t doing their job.

how did it happen?

I’ve a former colleague who works with the MPD, from when we we’re partnering with the university and police force up there, and have his take on recent weeks.

I’d be interested to compare the two.

 

[insidejob]

$15,000 bond for the cop who killed Breonna Taylor. 3 counts of wanton endangerment. Wow.

 

[JimEverett]

$15,000 bond for the cop who killed Breonna Taylor. 3 counts of wanton endangerment. Wow.

I am not sure what sort of murder offenses Kentucky has, but the Taylor case made me wonder if the person who made the decision to execute the warrant at her apartment could be charged with something like "reckless homicide"
I mean that is in addition to charging the shooter/shooters as well.

I think "wanton endangerment" would be more applicable to the person who lied on the search warrant affidavit.

Real miscarriage, imo, here that no one is going the be charged with murder or something more serious than wanton endangerment given all the mistakes made that led to Taylor's death.

 

[Greg]

$15,000 bond for the cop who killed Breonna Taylor. 3 counts of wanton endangerment. Wow.

He's not the one who killed her. His charges were for firing shots that went through the window into a neighboring apartment. The other two were determined to be self defense. She was standing next to a man who shot a police officer. They returned fire and she was struck. One shot was fatal. The FBI determined that shot was fired by Cosgrove.

 

[MT15]

I agree with Jim Everett there has to be some sort of criminal liability here for police who break into a home after midnight, not in uniform, and shoot and kill the homeowner, who isn’t wanted for any crime. We are consistently told a homeowner has the right to defend himself in his home, which is what appeared to happen in this case. We have one anonymous witness who says that the police announced themselves, and 12 witnesses on the record in interviews from surrounding apartments who say they didn’t hear anything until the door was broken down.

The department agrees it has civil liability, obviously, for the warrant issued was for a man who no longer lived there and was in custody already.

The department did a lot of shady things after the murder as well, like offering to drop charges against Taylor’s ex (the subject of the warrant) if he would sign a statement that Taylor was involved in his drug charges. To his credit he refused to say she was involved, and in fact said she was not involved in any way.

Reckless homicide sounds like a place to start, and let a jury sort it out. The DA in this case has acted as judge and jury. The fact that no charges at all were brought due to the death of Taylor says a lot about the way he conducted the grand jury, imo.

 

[Lapaz]

I am not sure what sort of murder offenses Kentucky has, but the Taylor case made me wonder if the person who made the decision to execute the warrant at her apartment could be charged with something like "reckless homicide"
I mean that is in addition to charging the shooter/shooters as well.

I think "wanton endangerment" would be more applicable to the person who lied on the search warrant affidavit.

Real miscarriage, imo, here that no one is going the be charged with murder or something more serious than wanton endangerment given all the mistakes made that led to Taylor's death.

Why would somebody be charged with murder if they made mistakes? The account I read was that the cops knocked, and even the boyfriend, Walker, said he heard aggressive banging at the door, which means that the cops didn't just break in immediately. Apparently the warrant was changed to require identification and knocking. The fatal mistake was primarily made by Walker, because he shot without trying to identify who he was shooting at. He said he feared for his life, but that was wanton disregard for life as well. Once he shot at the cops, the cops had a right to defend themselves.

The whole thing shouldn't have happened, but that's a separate issue. Breaking into a house to look for a stash of drugs shouldn't happen. That's not an offense worthy breaking into a house in the middle of the night. That can be done much more safely during the day, or even after the residence is vacated. If drugs were legalized, this wouldn't happen.

 

[JimEverett]

Why would somebody be charged with murder if they made mistakes? The account I read was that the cops knocked, and even the boyfriend, Walker, said he heard aggressive banging at the door, which means that the cops didn't just break in immediately. Apparently the warrant was changed to require identification and knocking. The fatal mistake was primarily made by Walker, because he shot without trying to identify who he was shooting at. He said he feared for his life, but that was wanton disregard for life as well. Once he shot at the cops, the cops had a right to defend themselves.

The whole thing shouldn't have happened, but that's a separate issue. Breaking into a house to look for a stash of drugs shouldn't happen. That's not an offense worthy breaking into a house in the middle of the night. That can be done much more safely during the day, or even after the residence is vacated. If drugs were legalized, this wouldn't happen.

To be more technically correct, I should have said "homicide" rather than "murder" - again, I do not know what is all required for charging someone with homicide in Kentucky. REckless homicide and//or voluntary manslaughter are possibilities given the actions were a "mistake." But putting incorrect information in an affidavit for a no-knock warrant (even if that status as "no-knock" eventually changed) strikes me as possibly (emphasize "possibly") arising to a reckless intent. There are issues about serving the warrant as well.

And perhaps this case is as good as any to highlight the rather routine nature of judges and magistrates approving warrants, not to mention approving "no-knock" warrants. Without any consequences to their actions, why would a magistrate/judge deny a search warrant application? And, as here apparently - if the warrant affidavit contains false information - then there are little-to- no consequences to the Affiant either.

 

[coldseat]

Why would somebody be charged with murder if they made mistakes? The account I read was that the cops knocked, and even the boyfriend, Walker, said he heard aggressive banging at the door, which means that the cops didn't just break in immediately. Apparently the warrant was changed to require identification and knocking. The fatal mistake was primarily made by Walker, because he shot without trying to identify who he was shooting at. He said he feared for his life, but that was wanton disregard for life as well. Once he shot at the cops, the cops had a right to defend themselves.

The whole thing shouldn't have happened, but that's a separate issue. Breaking into a house to look for a stash of drugs shouldn't happen. That's not an offense worthy breaking into a house in the middle of the night. That can be done much more safely during the day, or even after the residence is vacated. If drugs were legalized, this wouldn't happen.

I don't know how you can call Walker's action wanton disregard for life. He was in his own apartment. Legally owned a gun. Had people in plain clothes breaking into his home in the middle of the night without identifying themselves. What exactly are you expectations of him in that situation? To stop and ask who's breaking into his apartment before he shoots? Oh wait, he actually did that. What else should he have done?

The police, by contrast carried out several actions that lead to Walker's response and caused the homicide of Taylor at their hands. This wasn't some tragic accident. They carried out a raid at night on a warrant that should have never been issued, the didn't announce themselves clearly (if at all), when Walker yelled for them to identify themselves, they did not (so he actually did try to identify them). Then they broke in and the shooting started. NONE OF THIS IS THE FAULT OF TAYLOR OR WALKER!

Sorry, but this was a total police fork up and cover up. Not only should heads roll but people should be held criminally responsible. But of course, the won't be.

 

[Ayo]

I don't know how you can call Walker's action wanton disregard for life. He was in his own apartment. Legally owned a gun. Had people in plain clothes breaking into his home in the middle of the night without identifying themselves. What exactly are you expectations of him in that situation? To stop and ask who's breaking into his apartment before he shoots? Oh wait, he actually did that. What else should he have done?

The police, by contrast carried out several actions that lead to Walker's response and caused the homicide of Taylor at their hands. This wasn't some tragic accident. They carried out a raid at night on a warrant that should have never been issued, the didn't announce themselves clearly (if at all), when Walker yelled for them to identify themselves, they did not (so he actually did try to identify them). Then they broke in and the shooting started. NONE OF THIS IS THE FAULT OF TAYLOR OR WALKER!

Sorry, but this was a total police fork up and cover up. Not only should heads roll but people should be held criminally responsible. But of course, the won't be.

they were hoping for a manslaughter charge according to what I read.

They knocked on the door but didn’t declare “police”. There was a witness in the stairwell who heard the banging but only heard police once. Walker repeatedly yelled “who is it?” And feared it was her ex.

this is important information. If it had been the ex, busting in with no announcement, he has a right to defend himself, with a legally registered gun.

that’s why the cops need to clearly identify.It was obvious this didn’t happen clearly enough. The cops can’t just say “my bad” and it becomes enough in the eyes of the law or Lapaz of whomever.

If we are going to discuss the events and potential charges some of the missing information or context in that post becomes necessary.

 

[JimEverett]

they were hoping for a manslaughter charge according to what I read.

They knocked on the door but didn’t declare “police”. There was a witness in the stairwell who heard the banging but only heard police once. Walker repeatedly yelled “who is it?” And feared it was her ex.

this is important information. If it had been the ex, busting in with no announcement, he has a right to defend himself, with a legally registered gun.

that’s why the cops need to clearly identify.It was obvious this didn’t happen clearly enough. The cops can’t just say “my bad” and it becomes enough in the eyes of the law or Lapaz of whomever.

If we are going to discuss the events and potential charges some of the missing information or context in that post becomes necessary.

The whole way warrants are served is problematic. On the one hand - so what if you scream "police" a half a second before you bust down a door? even ore so if the cops are in street clothes?
I understand that an element of surprise can help the safety of officers, and I do nto want to diminish that concern. But if you are going to serve a warrant like that I feel like there should be a much, much higher scrutiny of the warrant application.
The fact is, I think a main motivation is simply that we don't want to give people time to flush evidence down the toilet.
I am much more in favor of letting some criminals - including violent criminals - get away with crime than for similar events to Taylor's murder to continue happening - and Taylor is not an isolated incident. This stuff is rare, but it happens with some degree of regularity.

 

[SaintForLife]

The Taylor case is a tragedy, but it seems that the intial narrative ends up being incorrect quite often. I might have missed it, but it seems like every time I heard about the Taylor case it was stated that it was a no knock raid and no mention of the boyfriend firing first on the officers. The Democratic Party claimed there wasn't any warrant.


Senior Daily Daily Beast Columnist and CNN Contributor. She deleted the tweet:

We also know that Micheal Brown never said hands up don't shoot, but people still say that slogan.