Language (1 Viewer)

[Farb]

In another thread, it was brought to my attention that we am not allowed to use certain centuries old definitions because they have been 'updated'. That discussion was about the definition of 'racism'. I asked who controls the 'words' and who exactly gets to update the meaning of those commonly used words.

I saw this yesterday and thought this would be a discussion to attempt to have.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...e-terms-like-birthing-parents-human-milk.html

https://news.yahoo.com/democrats-replace-women-birthing-people-033500864.html

IMO this is a move to be 'inclusive' to trans people at the sake of women (we are discussing birthing humans after all).

The recent call to change the word for a person who comes into a country illegally from Alien to undocumented. Why? What possible purpose does it serve?

Even 'white supremacy' doesn't mean 'white supremacy'.

I am sure we are all somewhat familiar with Orwell and 1984. So i thought this would be a good place to post and discuss the language that we are seeing right in front of us. If we can't even share a language with common definitions, how do we expect to share a government?

 

[DaveXA]

I don't think we need one word to describe them all. That is part of the problem i have with it. The politicians and public need a word to lump them all together, but that only makes the problem harder to address.

There is a difference between visa overstays, EWI, TPS, and DACA are all examples of people who are technically here without true legal status. TPS and DACA are quasi-legal statuses, but they are just temporary.

In the past several years, the number of people who overstay their visas has been higher than those who enter illegally. Those are two different situations and can't be addressed by a single policy.

We have people here on TPS who initially got TPS because of hurricane Mitch. That was over 20 years ago. TPS was intended to be temporary, but it has not worked out that way. The TPS population is an entirely different group from visa overstays or EWI's, although most of them were either EWI or visa overstays before they got TPS.

My point is that our language determines how we see the issue, and it oversimplifies a very complicated situation. The public just thinks illegal immigration is a problem, but it is really several problems.

I don't disagree that it's a complicated problem. Most discussions of immigration don't get that far into the various policies that impact immigration.

One part of your post that has my attention is your statement that visa overstays are greater than those who enter illegally. Apparently, last month, something like 180,000+ people were apprehended for illegally crossing the border. I can't imagine that many people are overstaying their visas in a single month. I know visa overstays is quite common, I wouldn't have guessed it's more than the current number of border crossings. I'd be curious to see the numbers.

I do think we need to get our arms around the immigration issue and find a balance where we're welcoming people who want to come to the country legally, and securing our borders, which ultimately is a national security issue.

 

[samiam5211]

I don't disagree that it's a complicated problem. Most discussions of immigration don't get that far into the various policies that impact immigration.

One part of your post that has my attention is your statement that visa overstays are greater than those who enter illegally. Apparently, last month, something like 180,000+ people were apprehended for illegally crossing the border. I can't imagine that many people are overstaying their visas in a single month. I know visa overstays is quite common, I wouldn't have guessed it's more than the current number of border crossings. I'd be curious to see the numbers.

I do think we need to get our arms around the immigration issue and find a balance where we're welcoming people who want to come to the country legally, and securing our borders, which ultimately is a national security issue.

Well, you are correct, that when i said that, I was not accounting for the surge of the past few months. I'm sure the last three months, have seen greater numbers of EWI's than visa overstays. I will say that a certain number of the apprehensions are the same people being encountered multiple times.

https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/20_0513_fy19-entry-and-exit-overstay-report.pdf

that is the most recent info i could find, but you can see that in 2019, there were almost 700,000 visa overstays.

The numbers for EWI are always going to be an estimate, because the only ones we can be certain of are apprehensions.

Don't want to sidetrack the thread on immigration issues, which i'm probably already guilty of...

 

[DaveXA]

Well, you are correct, that when i said that, I was not accounting for the surge of the past few months. I'm sure the last three months, have seen greater numbers of EWI's than visa overstays. I will say that a certain number of the apprehensions are the same people being encountered multiple times.

https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/20_0513_fy19-entry-and-exit-overstay-report.pdf

that is the most recent info i could find, but you can see that in 2019, there were almost 700,000 visa overstays.

The numbers for EWI are always going to be an estimate, because the only ones we can be certain of are apprehensions.

Don't want to sidetrack the thread on immigration issues, which i'm probably already guilty of...

Well, immigration is something that impacts me directly as my wife is one, now a naturalized US citizen and I probably have more immigrant friends than I do US friends, lol. By and large, they're great people. Anyway, yeah, maybe we'll bump up an old immigration thread or start a new one. All good.

 

[Farb]

https://www.campusreform.org/article?id=17483

The Penn State faculty senate passed "inclusive language" reform since the school grew from a "typically male-centered world."​

The resolution urges the university to change all written materials with the "junior/senior" label because it is "parallel to western male father-son naming conventions."​

Here is the resolution:
https://senate.psu.edu/senators/agendas-records/april-27-2021-agenda/appendix-c/

Was anyone actually bothered by this, or this a 'crisis' fabricated in order to push more top down censorship and regulation on our common language?

 

[MT15]

I read the resolution, I don’t get the sense that anyone, including those who authored it, think this is a crisis. These are recommendations at this point.

The examples given at the bottom would simply replace the current “him or her” with “their”. A bit more concise.

What makes this so odorous to you, Farb? I’m curious.

 

[DaveXA]

I read the resolution, I don’t get the sense that anyone, including those who authored it, think this is a crisis. These are recommendations at this point.

The examples given at the bottom would simply replace the current “him or her” with “their”. A bit more concise.

What makes this so odorous to you, Farb? I’m curious.

Their is plural, him or her is singular. I don't really care if they do this, but it would change the phrasing needed to make it work, I would think.

 

[MT15]

It’s just part of the evolution of language, IMO. In the example provided it was pretty seamless, from a language standpoint.

It wouldn’t prevent students from referring to themselves however they wish, despite the semi-hysterical responses from the campus conservatives. It would only apply to course descriptions in course catalogs, at this point they are merely suggesting changes in other written material.

Evidently that is a crisis in the minds of some. That’s why I’m curious about what specifically makes this so threatening.

 

[MT15]

Here’s the example given. It was apparently chosen to show that there will be times when gendered pronouns would be retained, when needed for clarity.

‘Example of Proposed Edits:

Original Description:

THEA 270 Introduction to Lighting Design (3). Introduction to Lighting Design will focus on helping each student to develop a design process that takes him or her from script to stage.

Administrative Edit:

THEA 270 Introduction to Lighting Design (3). Introduction to Lighting Design will focus on helping each student to develop a design process that takes them from script to stage.

A course description such as this, however, would remain untouched:

THEA 207 Gender and Theatre (3) (GA;US). Theatre 207 provides a basic survey of issues of representations of gender identity in theatre. The course will trace women’s experiences in theatre from their absence on European classical stages to the more recent formation of feminist theatres.’

 

[DaveXA]

Here’s the example given. It was apparently chosen to show that there will be times when gendered pronouns would be retained, when needed for clarity.

‘Example of Proposed Edits:

Original Description:

THEA 270 Introduction to Lighting Design (3). Introduction to Lighting Design will focus on helping each student to develop a design process that takes him or her from script to stage.

Administrative Edit:

THEA 270 Introduction to Lighting Design (3). Introduction to Lighting Design will focus on helping each student to develop a design process that takes them from script to stage.

A course description such as this, however, would remain untouched:

THEA 207 Gender and Theatre (3) (GA;US). Theatre 207 provides a basic survey of issues of representations of gender identity in theatre. The course will trace women’s experiences in theatre from their absence on European classical stages to the more recent formation of feminist theatres.’

That seems pretty reasonable. No issue with that.

 

[Farb]

I read the resolution, I don’t get the sense that anyone, including those who authored it, think this is a crisis. These are recommendations at this point.

The examples given at the bottom would simply replace the current “him or her” with “their”. A bit more concise.

What makes this so odorous to you, Farb? I’m curious.

One is plural, one is singular. Are we allowing incorrect grammar because some soft person get their self entitled sense of being tarnished. No one cares, or actually no one should care. That may actually be more of the problem.

 

[bird]

Words, words, words.

Lee Atwater is instructional. So are Chomsky and Zinn. As well as a host of others.

ALL words are intended to convey meaning. That being said meaning is filtered through the lens of the speaker and hearer. Internal biases, belief structures etc all contribute to how the words are processed and understood or misunderstood.

The example of immigration is framed completely differently by different people. The “why” is seldom deeply examined. Instead the framing is illegality, non-existent job theft, crime and patriotism defined as “border protection”.

There is no “border crisis” from the standpoint of “caravans”. There is from the standpoint that multiple decades of poor policy on our part and the part of various Latin American governments has created large movement of people. Add in neo-liberal economic policies and failed bread-and-circuses by countries like Venezuela and the result is a human mess on multiple levels.

I am not expecting any solution from the U.S. or anyone else. The will and human decency are lacking.

 

[JRad]

Personally, I prefer neutral pronouns. They're a more flexible form of communication.

 

[MT15]

One is plural, one is singular. Are we allowing incorrect grammar because some soft person get their self entitled sense of being tarnished. No one cares, or actually no one should care. That may actually be more of the problem.

It seems you care more than anyone else about this. Your criticism of the use of gender neutral language as “entitled” is pretty ironic. And I find myself being skeptical about your concern for grammar.

Read the example. Then tell me what is wrong with it.

 

[brandon]

Are we allowing incorrect grammar because some soft person get their self entitled sense of being tarnished

Language evolves, ergo grammar evolves. If this type of usage becomes mainstream, it will then be correct.

 

[RobF]

Language evolves, ergo grammar evolves. If this type of usage becomes mainstream, it will then be correct.

It's probably worth mentioning that 'they' has been used to refer to the singular person since the 14th century.

Singular they - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[DaveXA]

It's probably worth mentioning that 'they' has been used to refer to the singular person since the 14th century.

Singular they - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Learn something new every day.

 

[Farb]

I don't think they were shooting for the 14th century use of the word, at least not what I got from the proposal.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-vaxxer

The meaning of "anti-vaxxer' just change to anyone who opposed state mandated injections. Why would laws mandating vaccines be included? I have no problem with vaccines. I have a problem with this covid vaccine but now I get to be labled as an anti-vaxxer because I have questions about a vaccines that was created faster than anyone before? A couple of months ago they told me I don't need it and should not get it since I had the virus in the wild.

The radical left loves to to label and group people. Control the words and language, control the information.

 

[DaveXA]

I don't think they were shooting for the 14th century use of the word, at least not what I got from the proposal.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-vaxxer

The meaning of "anti-vaxxer' just change to anyone who opposed state mandated injections. Why would laws mandating vaccines be included? I have no problem with vaccines. I have a problem with this covid vaccine but now I get to be labled as an anti-vaxxer because I have questions about a vaccines that was created faster than anyone before? A couple of months ago they told me I don't need it and should not get it since I had the virus in the wild.

The radical left loves to to label and group people. Control the words and language, control the information.

Well, I gotta admit that for years and years the Republican party were masters at messaging. They were all about controlling narratives and using words and meanings to make their case. What's good for the goose and all that.