Language (2 Viewers)

[Farb]

In another thread, it was brought to my attention that we am not allowed to use certain centuries old definitions because they have been 'updated'. That discussion was about the definition of 'racism'. I asked who controls the 'words' and who exactly gets to update the meaning of those commonly used words.

I saw this yesterday and thought this would be a discussion to attempt to have.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...e-terms-like-birthing-parents-human-milk.html

https://news.yahoo.com/democrats-replace-women-birthing-people-033500864.html

IMO this is a move to be 'inclusive' to trans people at the sake of women (we are discussing birthing humans after all).

The recent call to change the word for a person who comes into a country illegally from Alien to undocumented. Why? What possible purpose does it serve?

Even 'white supremacy' doesn't mean 'white supremacy'.

I am sure we are all somewhat familiar with Orwell and 1984. So i thought this would be a good place to post and discuss the language that we are seeing right in front of us. If we can't even share a language with common definitions, how do we expect to share a government?

 

[Paul]

They are democratic socialism in the flesh. They use socialism to provide the net. They are exactly what the current leftists in the US are aspiring to and with good measure although that's not exactly what I'd like to happen.

The government controls the obvious monopolies and highly regulates the economy. High taxes come with luxurious social services, but make no mistake it's the living incarnation of what you guys keep whining about as what AOC and Bernie would slippery slide us into with a weatlh tax on billionaires.

I know you guys want the goodies and that is fine. However, the Nordic nations are capitalists. Just look it up.

"Americans frequently hear about the Nordic model. Whether it’s Bernie Sanders or AOC, progressive politicians love to point to Scandinavia as a socialist alternative to our current economic system. And it’s true in some ways. All these countries have large welfare states that would be quickly implemented by American progressive politicians if they had their way. They also have great outcomes. If you look at many OECD indicators - education, health, GDP per capita, or just general HDI - the Nordic countries do extremely well. This is while the US has slipped in many of these rankings.

But do large welfare states make you socialist? Norwegian Prime Minister Carl Bildt and Danish Prime Minister Lars Rasmussen don’t seem to think so. They’ve rejected the socialist label put on their countries by Americans and have warned (here and here) the US of politicians like Bernie Sanders. And after researching these economies, it’s clear that this is the case. In fact, the Nordic countries are not only capitalist but, in some ways, are even more capitalist than we are as I will show.

First, let’s consider the tax system. It’s true that Scandinavian countries typically pay higher marginal tax rates than Americans. Denmark and Sweden have marginal rates of 60% and 57%, respectively, while the US has a top marginal rate of 46%. Norway’s marginal rate of 39%, however, is actually lower than ours. So when progressives argue for increasing marginal rates like those in Scandinavia, are they willing to accept such a minor increase? The same goes for corporate tax rates. The US has a corporate tax rate of 21%, compared with Denmark’s 22%, Sweden’s 22%, and Norway’s 24%."

The Nordic Countries Are More Capitalist Than You Think — The Economics Book Review

Americans frequently hear about the Nordic model. Whether it’s Bernie Sanders or AOC, progressive politicians love to point to Scandinavia as a socialist alternative to our current economic system. And it’s true in some ways. All these countries have large welfare states that would be quickly implem

theeconomicsbookreview.com

 

[Paul]

They are democratic socialism in the flesh. They use socialism to provide the net. They are exactly what the current leftists in the US are aspiring to and with good measure although that's not exactly what I'd like to happen.

The government controls the obvious monopolies and highly regulates the economy. High taxes come with luxurious social services, but make no mistake it's the living incarnation of what you guys keep whining about as what AOC and Bernie would slippery slide us into with a weatlh tax on billionaires.

BTW, Sweden has started to privatize the social security system. They also use school vouchers for private religious schools. These two are conservative views in America

 

[SFIDC3]

First, let’s consider the tax system. It’s true that Scandinavian countries typically pay higher marginal tax rates than Americans. Denmark and Sweden have marginal rates of 60% and 57%, respectively, while the US has a top marginal rate of 46%. Norway’s marginal rate of 39%, however, is actually lower than ours. So when progressives argue for increasing marginal rates like those in Scandinavia, are they willing to accept such a minor increase? The same goes for corporate tax rates. The US has a corporate tax rate of 21%, compared with Denmark’s 22%, Sweden’s 22%, and Norway’s 24%."

It's not really even the marginal rates that matter here. My question would be in the Nordic countries do the corporations and uber wealthy actually pay their fair share of taxes? Or do they have similar loopholes that allows them to avoid paying taxes like we shamefully do here? My guess is they don't which is why their tax revenue is robust enough to fund the "goodies"....

 

[Paul]

It's not really even the marginal rates that matter here. My question would be in the Nordic countries do the corporations and uber wealthy actually pay their fair share of taxes? Or do they have similar loopholes that allows them to avoid paying taxes like we shamefully do here? My guess is they don't which is why their tax revenue is robust enough to fund the "goodies"....

Most businessmen say it is easier to do business in Denmark than in America., just sayin'.

In any event charging more taxes to the rich will not solve the problem. If we do they may move to Scandinavia.
What really matter is tax revenue and that is linked to a robust economy. As much as I dislike Trump he actually collected more taxes than Obama (even during the pandemia).

U.S. Federal Government Tax Revenue

The federal government generates tax revenue through sources like income and corporate taxes. Learn how much tax revenue the U.S. generates each year.

www.thebalance.com

Fiscal Year	Revenue
FY 2021	$3.86 (estimated)
FY 2020	$3.71 trillion (estimated)
FY 2019	$3.46 trillion (actual)
FY 2018	$3.33 trillion
FY 2017	$3.32 trillion
FY 2016	$3.27 trillion
FY 2015	$3.25 trillion
FY 2014	$3.02 trillion
FY 2013	$2.77 trillion
FY 2012	$2.45 trillion
FY 2011	$2.30 trillion
FY 2010	$2.16 trillion
FY 2009	$2.10 trillion
FY 2008	$2.52 trillion

 

[Paul]

They are democratic socialism in the flesh.

I forgot to ad: Democratic socialism is an oxymoron. Socialism is always authoritarian even if someone puts the word democratic in front of it.

 

[RobF]

I forgot to ad: Democratic socialism is an oxymoron. Socialism is always authoritarian even if someone puts the word democratic in front of it.

False.

If you disagree, then:

1) Define authoritarian.
2) Show how this is an inherent requirement of socialism, in a way not applicable to most, if not all, forms of organised society.

 

[SFIDC3]

Most businessmen say it is easier to do business in Denmark than in America., just sayin'.

In any event charging more taxes to the rich will not solve the problem. If we do they may move to Scandinavia.
What really matter is tax revenue and that is linked to a robust economy. As much as I dislike Trump he actually collected more taxes than Obama (even during the pandemia).

Total BS....it's not charging more taxes to the uber wealthy and corporations, my point is we need to eliminate the loopholes and tax code that allow them to not pay taxes at all....and that all of them are going to move argument is ridiculous as long as they continue to profit here and do business here, they ain't going anywhere....

People earning between 2 - 5 million payed the highest average rate of taxes (27.5%). Above 5 million the tax rate falls to an average of 23%...the wealthiest pay an average of 15% with some of those paying 0.....if you think that is just fine then just don't reply at all....

 

[dtc]

I forgot to ad: Democratic socialism is an oxymoron. Socialism is always authoritarian even if someone puts the word democratic in front of it.

No, it's not. Norway, Denmark and Sweden are absolutely not being ruled by fascists. They are democratic socialists and as you pointed out above, they utilize government to subsidize private entities including even private schools.

 

[Paul]

No, it's not. Norway, Denmark and Sweden are absolutely not being ruled by fascists. They are democratic socialists and as you pointed out above, they utilize government to subsidize private entities including even private schools.

Google it. Their economies are based on the free market.

Democratic Socialists have presented Denmark as the elusive nation where socialism has been successful, and thus a model for the policies they would implement in the United States. Bernie Sanders regularly invoked Denmark during the 2016 presidential campaign, and Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez reassured 60 Minutes viewers that her version of democratic socialism would veer more toward Denmark than Venezuela. Just weeks ago a free-market think tank in Denmark, the Center for Political Studies (CEPOS), issued a 20-page report telling Americans that 1) Denmark is not a socialist nation; and 2) statist policies have still caused significant economic harm.

Denmark is not socialist

The 20-page report notes that, by some measures, Denmark and the Nordic “socialist” countries have more economic freedom than the United States:

The Fraser Institute’s Economic Freedom of the World index ranks Denmark 16th (out of 162 countries). According to the Heritage Foundation’s Index of Economic Freedom, Denmark (ranked 12th out of 180 countries) ranks higher than the US (18th). Denmark generally ranks high on regulation, protection of private property, fighting corruption, flexibility of the labor market and trade, but ranks low on taxes and public spending, which are very high in Denmark compared to other countries.

Denmark to American leftists: We’re not socialist

Democratic Socialists have presented Denmark as the elusive nation where socialism has been successful, and thus a model for the policies they would implement in the United States. Bernie Sanders regularly invoked Denmark during the 2016 presidential campaign, and Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez reassured 6

blog.acton.org

The 'Nordic model' of capitalism​

The five Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden) are often characterised as being welfare capitalist, featuring a combination of free market activity and government intervention. However, the institutional frameworks and economic policy models have changed over time, and the ‘model’ used has varied between countries and throughout their history. The success of the Nordic economies has arguably shown that economic prosperity can go hand in hand with the welfare state. Current challenges include increasing wage differentials and an ageing population, however.

The 'Nordic model' of capitalism

The five Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden) are often characterised as being welfare capitalist, featuring a combination of free market activity and government intervention. However, the institutional frameworks and economic policy models have changed over time, and...

nordics.info

The Scandinavians have a healthy safety net, but this is paid by a capitalist economy.

 

[Paul]

Total BS....it's not charging more taxes to the uber wealthy and corporations, my point is we need to eliminate the loopholes and tax code that allow them to not pay taxes at all....and that all of them are going to move argument is ridiculous as long as they continue to profit here and do business here, they ain't going anywhere....

People earning between 2 - 5 million payed the highest average rate of taxes (27.5%). Above 5 million the tax rate falls to an average of 23%...the wealthiest pay an average of 15% with some of those paying 0.....if you think that is just fine then just don't reply at all....

For the love of God! Did you look at the federal government tax revenue. They collected more taxes than ever. What really matters is that the tax revenue goes up. However, you are more interested in class warfare and sticking it to the rich.

 

[V Chip]

As much as I dislike Trump he actually collected more taxes than Obama (even during the pandemia).

Nah, that was an estimate. The new CBO estimate is much much less.

“On the basis of receipts through July 2020, CBO expects federal revenues to total $3.3 trillion this fiscal year, $167 billion (or about 5 percent) less than in 2019.”

You honestly thought that revenue would still go up in 2020?

 

[Paul]

False.

If you disagree, then:

1) Define authoritarian.
2) Show how this is an inherent requirement of socialism, in a way not applicable to most, if not all, forms of organised society.

In a truly socialist nation those individuals that want to be capitalists would not be able to pursue that goal.

All nations have laws and many proponents of socialism use that as an excuse to impose socialism. That is a worn out excuse to justify the tyranny of socialism.

In a capitalist nation any group of individuals have the freedom to establish a commune. They can donate all their private property to the commune and start a workers owned business.

There is a reason why all socialist nations are authoritarian. If they don't then capitalism happens.

 

[Paul]

Nah, that was an estimate. The new CBO estimate is much much less.

“On the basis of receipts through July 2020, CBO expects federal revenues to total $3.3 trillion this fiscal year, $167 billion (or about 5 percent) less than in 2019.”

You honestly thought that revenue would still go up in 2020?

Sure, but it is remarkable that they collected that much in a year that was an economic disaster due to the pandemia. In any event that does not change the trend and I suspect IRS revenues will continue to go up. The only reason I pointed that out is because many people here form arguments by using worn out phrases the hear on TV that have no basis in reality.

 

[V Chip]

“On the basis of receipts through July 2020, CBO expects federal revenues to total $3.3 trillion this fiscal year, $167 billion (or about 5 percent) less than in 2019.”

Additionally, in constant dollars revenue actually decreased in a few years. This is a result of the ill-conceived tax cut that the Republicans enacted when Trump took office.

 

[V Chip]

Sure, but it is remarkable that they collected that much in a year that was an economic disaster due to the pandemia. In any event that does not change the trend and I suspect IRS revenues will continue to go up. The only reason I pointed that out is because many people here form arguments by using worn out phrases the hear on TV that have no basis in reality.

They didn’t collect “that much” — it was way down from what it should have been, and even worse because of the tax cuts. As you can see from the data I posted, we haven’t hit the same revenue in constant dollars since 2015 and won’t again until (estimated) 2022. That’s six straight years of depressed revenue power.

 

[dtc]

Google it. Their economies are based on the free market.

Democratic Socialists have presented Denmark as the elusive nation where socialism has been successful, and thus a model for the policies they would implement in the United States. Bernie Sanders regularly invoked Denmark during the 2016 presidential campaign, and Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez reassured 60 Minutes viewers that her version of democratic socialism would veer more toward Denmark than Venezuela. Just weeks ago a free-market think tank in Denmark, the Center for Political Studies (CEPOS), issued a 20-page report telling Americans that 1) Denmark is not a socialist nation; and 2) statist policies have still caused significant economic harm.

Denmark is not socialist

The 20-page report notes that, by some measures, Denmark and the Nordic “socialist” countries have more economic freedom than the United States:

Denmark to American leftists: We’re not socialist

Democratic Socialists have presented Denmark as the elusive nation where socialism has been successful, and thus a model for the policies they would implement in the United States. Bernie Sanders regularly invoked Denmark during the 2016 presidential campaign, and Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez reassured 6

blog.acton.org

The 'Nordic model' of capitalism​

The five Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden) are often characterised as being welfare capitalist, featuring a combination of free market activity and government intervention. However, the institutional frameworks and economic policy models have changed over time, and the ‘model’ used has varied between countries and throughout their history. The success of the Nordic economies has arguably shown that economic prosperity can go hand in hand with the welfare state. Current challenges include increasing wage differentials and an ageing population, however.

The 'Nordic model' of capitalism

The five Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden) are often characterised as being welfare capitalist, featuring a combination of free market activity and government intervention. However, the institutional frameworks and economic policy models have changed over time, and...

nordics.info

The Scandinavians have a healthy safety net, but this is paid by a capitalist economy.

You should stop bringing knives to gunfights and tossing around words you don't understand.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Most businessmen say it is easier to do business in Denmark than in America., just sayin'.

In any event charging more taxes to the rich will not solve the problem. If we do they may move to Scandinavia.
What really matter is tax revenue and that is linked to a robust economy. As much as I dislike Trump he actually collected more taxes than Obama (even during the pandemia).

U.S. Federal Government Tax Revenue

The federal government generates tax revenue through sources like income and corporate taxes. Learn how much tax revenue the U.S. generates each year.

www.thebalance.com

Fiscal Year	Revenue
FY 2021	$3.86 (estimated)
FY 2020	$3.71 trillion (estimated)
FY 2019	$3.46 trillion (actual)
FY 2018	$3.33 trillion
FY 2017	$3.32 trillion
FY 2016	$3.27 trillion
FY 2015	$3.25 trillion
FY 2014	$3.02 trillion
FY 2013	$2.77 trillion
FY 2012	$2.45 trillion
FY 2011	$2.30 trillion
FY 2010	$2.16 trillion
FY 2009	$2.10 trillion
FY 2008	$2.52 trillion

It's been a month or so since I looked at these numbers for some other discussion on some other board, but federal tax revenue has increased every year since the 1960s, with only one or two exceptions. It dipped in 1971, then from 2001-2003, and finally during the 2009 recession. Trump had nothing to do with it, other than inheriting an economy that bounced back under Obama's leadership. And estimates are that revenues would have been higher if not for the tax cuts, so Trump actually cost us money.

 

[Paul]

They didn’t collect “that much” — it was way down from what it should have been, and even worse because of the tax cuts. As you can see from the data I posted, we haven’t hit the same revenue in constant dollars since 2015 and won’t again until (estimated) 2022. That’s six straight years of depressed revenue power.

Up until this year there was basically no inflation.