Israel vs Hamas (3 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

Looks like the fight is on with Israeli soldiers and civilians amongst the dead already. Question becomes, how long before we get dragged into this?

Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ after Hamas launches surprise attack, takes hostages | CNN

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the country was “at war” on Saturday, after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired a deadly barrage of rockets and sent gunmen into Israeli territory in a major escalation of the long running conflict between the two sides.

www.cnn.com

 

[LA - L.A.]

You'll never guess who's involved

There's nothing credible about that random social media poster or the source they link to.

I mean the poster goes by "The Rabbit Hole." That right there would make a reasonable person doubt that source.

 

[samiam5211]

You'll never guess who's involved

Soros is the #1 boogeyman of antisemites everywhere.

Yet, people claim that Soros is funding protests that they claim are antisemetic.

Also, the Open society foundation funds thousands and non profits. If there is a protest going on anywhere on earth there is a good chance that it is getting some support from an organization connected to Soros.

 

[MT15]

LA - I know what you say is true. But I do believe that foreign governments are attempting to use these protests to destabilize the US in an election year. I do see a turn in what is happening - locally our peaceful student protest that was coordinated with university admin and police have escalated their tactics. They weren’t happy with being allowed to peacefully protest, so are pushing the line and attempting to get the response they seem to seek from the police. This isn’t proof of outside influence but it makes me suspicious of that.

Also - the original aim of a ceasefire seems to have turned into something else at this point. Too much pro-Hamas talk, for example. The use of “Zionist” as a stand-in for “Jew”. We shouldn’t underestimate the aspiration of anti-Semites to take over these protests, not to mention just anti-US forces (including US citizens) seeing these protests as a vehicle for their own gains. People who want to bring down the US government and the rule of law will latch on to any protest of these types.

I just don’t want to see these students get used by malignant people.

 

[brandon]

It's without a doubt the neocon view. You are just so used to it that you don't see it.

Russia does that, but the United States is the world leader and its not even close.

Who are the neocons in 2024?

Name one neocon.

 

[Heathen]

It doesn’t invalidate her point, though. All of this movement isn’t organic. To say it is just ignores facts. I’ve seen the protests move from being pro-cease fire to anti-Israel existing at all, and pro-Hamas. It started on-line with the help of US adversaries.

What do you think her point was? I only ask because there are a few discussions there, and I was really focusing on the irony of this commitment to calling Hamas a terrorist organization, but ignoring that Israel has slaughtered many, many more innocent civilians than Hamas ever has (and is still doing that as we all discuss this very topic).

I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say that this movement "isn't organic". Even Pelosi admitted that it was organic.

I don't think it's accurate to quantify all protests as being 'anti-Israel / pro-Hamas' now. Maybe you meant just a few of them. Sure, there will always be the crossover of idiots who don't understand that they're supporting the same terrorism the IDF practices when they support Hamas. I think a more accurate representation is that people are very strongly supportive of the liberation of Palestine from the Israeli oppressors. And remember, this has been going on for 70+ years, not just since October of last year.

A more likely situation than online adversaries from other countries changing the views of Israel in the US is that Israel has done much of the work themselves.

 

[MT15]

What do you think her point was? I only ask because there are a few discussions there, and I was really focusing on the irony of this commitment to calling Hamas a terrorist organization, but ignoring that Israel has slaughtered many, many more innocent civilians than Hamas ever has (and is still doing that as we all discuss this very topic).

I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say that this movement "isn't organic". Even Pelosi admitted that it was organic.

I don't think it's accurate to quantify all protests as being 'anti-Israel / pro-Hamas' now. Maybe you meant just a few of them. Sure, there will always be the crossover of idiots who don't understand that they're supporting the same terrorism the IDF practices when they support Hamas. I think a more accurate representation is that people are very strongly supportive of the liberation of Palestine from the Israeli oppressors. And remember, this has been going on for 70+ years, not just since October of last year.

A more likely situation than online adversaries from other countries changing the views of Israel in the US is that Israel has done much of the work themselves.

Nothing is ever “all” anything, of course. I don’t think we can ignore the turn of these protests, however. They used to be simply for a ceasefire. Now they really don’t focus on that primarily. They really do seem to be turning to anti-Israel, pro-Hamas. They are escalating their demands. They are occupying buildings, preventing access to university property by certain students.

I saw a video just today of occupation of a building at Columbia - they are forcing the university’s hand here. They say that occupation of Gaza justifies their occupation of this building. I guess everyone will have to square that in their own minds.

I don’t see how these tactics are more effective than peaceful demonstrations and negotiating with administration would be. They are more effective at causing chaos on US college campuses. And I fear that is the main goal at this point.

My suspicion is that if Columbia immediately divested, they would then find a new demand.

 

[LA - L.A.]

LA - I know what you say is true. But I do believe that foreign governments are attempting to use these protests to destabilize the US in an election year.

I think that's happening too. I just don't think it's the only thing happening and I don't think the majority of the protesters are being manipulated into that. Just like most of the BLM protesters didn't take the bait of the Christian white nationalists agitators.

I do see a turn in what is happening - locally our peaceful student protest that was coordinated with university admin and police have escalated their tactics.

Are you seeing this firsthand for yourself? Have you spent a lot of time at the actual protests? That's the only way to know what's actually going on.

They weren’t happy...

Just pointing out that you are lumping everyone in together as "they" and think every one of those individuals think and act the same way.

I think that's inaccurate and a costly mistake. It's actually what the foreign actors want us to do.

They want us to stop seeing individual people and only see groups. They want that, because it's really hard to dehumanize and stigmatize individuals.

Once they trick people into seeing groups instead of individuals, they can more easily dehumanize and stigmatized that group. Once they successfully stigmatize and dehumanize a group, then every individual in that group is dehumanized and stigmatized.

The individuals that are part of the "they" of protestors don't believe and aren't all doing the same thing.

... with being allowed to peacefully protest, so are pushing the line and attempting to get the response they seem to seek from the police. This isn’t proof of outside influence but it makes me suspicious of that.

Also - the original aim of a ceasefire seems to have turned into something else at this point. Too much pro-Hamas talk, for example. The use of “Zionist” as a stand-in for “Jew”. We shouldn’t underestimate the aspiration of anti-Semites to take over these protests,...

Just as we shouldn't underestimate the ruling, fascist, Israeli regime's aspiration to paint these protesters in a false light.

I see elements of both in play, with the addition of foreign advesaries. I get the impression you're not seeing the Israeli disinformation which leads you to see the protests from a biased perspective.

I just don’t want to see these students get used by malignant people.

I don't either. The current Israeli leadership are also malignant people and they actually have more influence over Americans than Hamas and foreign actors do.

 

[MT15]

I like this guy’s thread about this issue:

 

[LA - L.A.]

Nothing is ever “all” anything, of course...

You say that, but I just want to point out right after saying that you say this:

They used to be simply for a ceasefire. Now they really don’t focus on that primarily. They really do seem to be turning to anti-Israel, pro-Hamas. They are escalating their demands. They are occupying buildings, preventing access to university property by certain students.

You see some of the protesters doing things that concern you and then you lump every individual protestor into the one group "they" and speak as though every individual protestor is doing the things that concern you.

The accurate way to see it and word to use is "some" not "they."

 

[MT15]

You say that, but I just want to point out right after saying that you say this:


You see some of the protesters doing things that concern you and then you lump every individual protestor into the one group "they" and speak as though every individual protestor is doing the things that concern you.

The accurate way to see it and word to use is "some" not "they."

Yes, point taken. However, it doesn’t seem to be a tiny minority at this point. Thus my concern.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Yes, point taken. However, it doesn’t seem to be a tiny minority at this point. Thus my concern.

A very vocal, dishonest and conniving minority can cause a lot of trouble, so I share your concern too.

 

[LA - L.A.]

I like this guy’s thread about this issue:

I think the white christian nationalists are also doing what they can to exploit the situation to fuel hatred toward both Jewish and Muslim people. They're trying to double dip.

 

[Heathen]

https://www.axios.com/2024/04/29/netanyahu-biden-icc-arrest-warrants-war-crimes

Yikes..at some point, we have to come to the conclusion as all Americans that our government regardless of party supporting a war criminal is a stain on our democracy:

A spokesperson for the White House National Security Council declined to comment on the contents of Netanyahu's call with Biden, but told Axios: "As we have publicly said many times, the ICC has no jurisdiction in this situation and we do not support its investigation."

Fun fact, the US passed a law in 2002, the American Service Members ‘protection’ act, to make it so that officials or military personnel were essentially immune from ICC persecution. They even went as far as to say threats against this could be as much as giving the president the power to unilaterally allow the US to invade the Netherlands, where The Hague is located.

 

[samiam5211]

Jewish student suspended from Columbia for 'skunk spray' attack sues for discrimination

***

www.haaretz.com

How would we react if a former member of the Iranian military had attacked people in the US with a chemical weapon?

 

[DaveXA]

https://www.axios.com/2024/04/29/netanyahu-biden-icc-arrest-warrants-war-crimes

Yikes..at some point, we have to come to the conclusion as all Americans that our government regardless of party supporting a war criminal is a stain on our democracy:


Fun fact, the US passed a law in 2002, the American Service Members ‘protection’ act, to make it so that officials or military personnel were essentially immune from ICC persecution. They even went as far as to say threats against this could be as much as giving the president the power to unilaterally allow the US to invade the Netherlands, where The Hague is located.

Eh, there are a lot of things we can criticize, but the issue with the ICC isn't one of them. We aren't a part of and aren't subject to their authority. And the same for Israel. I don't agree with what Israel is doing, but I don't agree with validating anything the ICC is doing either.

 

[SaintForLife]

 

[bird]

And?

 

[SaintForLife]

And?

So