Is Secession a Realistic Option? (2 Viewers)

[Mr. Blue Sky]

I’m looking for serious responses, hopefully.. I think there is a good chance that Trump loses the election- but, as posters have pointed out in other threads- as i type this , we have an American president who is actively trying to suppress voters and rig the election, AND has stated on multiple occasions that if he loses, then by definition that means that the election was fixed... SO, with all that in mind- in the event of a Trump ‘victory’- what is to stop , say, California , Oregon and Washington pulling away from the US (CA has the world’s sixth-largest economy, As we all know).. Same with the New England states .. One initial problem i see is that, all 50 states have both Trump voters, as well as Non-Trump voters within their borders.. So unfortunately, anyone who ISNT willing to live under a strong armed dictator will have to move to the East or West Coast (if they want to, of course).. I have talked to conservatives in the past who have told me that they ‘wish California would just fall into the ocean’ (not even paraphrasing)- so presumably the New Trump America wouldnt mind seeing us all go.. Why would they even bother to start a Civil War, since they have such animosity towards the coasts (and non-Trump voters) anyway... It sucks, but it’s where we are.. Is this realistic, why or why not?

 

[The moose]

Possibly the dumb-shirtiest reason to move your family.

You are not kidding I lived in Dallas for less than a year. Jesus that place is horrendous. It just goes for miles and miles of strip malls with all the same stores. I was making pretty good money and packed back up and left that place in as soon as possible. Hell maybe it was just living in cowboy fan land but I could not do it.

I would rather be dirt poor in somewhere fun.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

I've talked about this before, but I sometimes think the best thing for this country is more federalism. Let the states do more of their own thing. Allow them to form alliances for things like health care policy and environmental regulation. Keep tax dollars local to the states -- to do that we'd need to find some way to even out the federal funding that goes to states through military bases (it won't be practical to move them).

 

[Saintman2884]

To be crystal clear, i have no issue whatsoever with conservatives, or republicans... only with the MAGA crowd.. if there is anyone reading this who isnt sure where they fit into that equation- only YOU can decide .. if you tell us you are “MAGA”, then you are admitting to being a mentally- ill reality-denier... But ONLY YOU can decide that, and no amount of religion, or moral superiority can change that .

You might be surprised at how many supposed “MAGA” Republicans actually might seem reasonable, intelligent, or at least halfway sensible if you were discuss politics with them on a general, non-assertive level where any possible discussions stayed civil and didn’t devolve any shouting matches about moral and political superiority, high ground.

Nowadays, given current political situation or arrangement, one may find some more mindful MAGA-types a little less arrogant, cocky or boisterous about their new “Golden calf” wannabe Trump god. Many MAGA Republicans I’ve talked to in Alabama admit Trump lost the election and in most respects, he was responsible for GOP losing control of the House and Senate, they just despise or hate AOC, Omar, “The Billionaire Class” Bernie Sanders, Chuck and Nancy and what FOX News and right-wing media outlets, press have said or claimed what they represent.

 

[SystemShock]

You might be surprised at how many supposed “MAGA” Republicans actually might seem reasonable, intelligent, or at least halfway sensible if you were discuss politics with them on a general, non-assertive level where any possible discussions stayed civil and didn’t devolve any shouting matches about moral and political superiority, high ground.

... but then..,

, they just despise or hate AOC, Omar, “The Billionaire Class” Bernie Sanders, Chuck and Nancy and what FOX News and right-wing media outlets, press have said or claimed what they represent.

 

[JRad]

Many MAGA Republicans I’ve talked to in Alabama admit Trump lost the election and in most respects, he was responsible for GOP losing control of the House and Senate

I think (hope?) the % of the hardcore, flag waving, stop the steal, Q anon is much smaller than the base who just appreciates basically anything a Republican puts forth. They’re just a loud majority and, with most of us migrating here from a Saints board, more prominent in these darker red areas.

 

[GMRfellowtraveller]

You might be surprised at how many supposed “MAGA” Republicans actually might seem reasonable, intelligent, or at least halfway sensible if you were discuss politics with them on a general, non-assertive level where any possible discussions stayed civil and didn’t devolve any shouting matches about moral and political superiority, high ground.

Nowadays, given current political situation or arrangement, one may find some more mindful MAGA-types a little less arrogant, cocky or boisterous about their new “Golden calf” wannabe Trump god. Many MAGA Republicans I’ve talked to in Alabama admit Trump lost the election and in most respects, he was responsible for GOP losing control of the House and Senate, they just despise or hate AOC, Omar, “The Billionaire Class” Bernie Sanders, Chuck and Nancy and what FOX News and right-wing media outlets, press have said or claimed what they represent.

A choice between stupid or lying is small comfort

 

[Saintman2884]

A choice between stupid or lying is small comfort

If it avoids a nasty, potentially heated conversation about moral/ethical superiority between two or more people living in same neighborhood, working in the same office building, might've been close friends in HS or College or generally speaking got along with long before Trump decided to enter U.S. politics and poison it, then yes, its more then a small comfort lying about it or consciously making sins of omission just to avoid violent, nasty rhetorical arguments?

Many of Trump's detractors, critics hate him with almost an extreme passion as equal to if not surpassing the blind devotion, love, worship his MAGA supporters gave him (and still do) at rallies and fundraisers. Some of these same MAGA supporters who are little more observant and don't fit the one-dimensional idiotic, completely deluded from reality, science-denying cult of personality shtick the MSM has put out (with some truth) know they work in offices, at least before COVID-19, or live in same neighborhoods with people who are fundamentally at odds with their political beliefs. So, instead of inviting constant feuds or bickering or possible pettiness seep in, for some of them it does make a lot more sense to keep some of their views to themselves. I know of people who live here in Mobile in midtown that despise Trump but they also know Mobile, overall, and Alabama,.as a state, doesn't share their political convictions as a whole and many of their neighbors, even in the more liberal Midtown region, are Republican voters or are MAGA's. I mean, is Donald Trump worth ruining the peaceful tranquility, personal happiness of a neighborhood because you don't like some of their convictions, as idiotic as they may be? I don't want to live in some echo chamber type city or areas of a city where all I hear are views comparable or similar to mine or where I'm not challenged in a meaningful, positive way.



Some people might see it as lying, others might interpret it as compartmentalizing, attempting to live, work and manage their daily lives without extreme drama or histrionics.

 

[MT15]

I can agree with you in that I just don’t talk politics with certain relatives and they don’t talk politics with me.

However, in a neighborhood if you feel like you have to keep your dislike for Trump quiet so as not to rile up his fans aren’t you actually contributing to an echo chamber?

This is speculation, but I live in a deeply Republican area, in a fairly prosperous suburb. In the run up to the election last year there weren’t too many Biden signs in my neighborhood and there were two Trump signs. However, several of what I called “inclusion” signs popped up, more of those than Trump signs for sure.

“Just be kind” and “Believe in science” for example. I would be willing to bet those people weren’t voting for Trump.

After the election I found out that Biden had indeed carried our entire county in a deep red state that Trump won overall.

So, I guess the point is that we have to find a way to let people know we don’t agree with Trump’s brand of authoritative crap. A bunch of my neighbors found a way, lol. But it’s important to challenge the notion that Trump is the new normal. Otherwise he wins and America will never be the same.

 

[coldseat]

If it avoids a nasty, potentially heated conversation about moral/ethical superiority between two or more people living in same neighborhood, working in the same office building, might've been close friends in HS or College or generally speaking got along with long before Trump decided to enter U.S. politics and poison it, then yes, its more then a small comfort lying about it or consciously making sins of omission just to avoid violent, nasty rhetorical arguments?

Many of Trump's detractors, critics hate him with almost an extreme passion as equal to if not surpassing the blind devotion, love, worship his MAGA supporters gave him (and still do) at rallies and fundraisers. Some of these same MAGA supporters who are little more observant and don't fit the one-dimensional idiotic, completely deluded from reality, science-denying cult of personality shtick the MSM has put out (with some truth) know they work in offices, at least before COVID-19, or live in same neighborhoods with people who are fundamentally at odds with their political beliefs. So, instead of inviting constant feuds or bickering or possible pettiness seep in, for some of them it does make a lot more sense to keep some of their views to themselves. I know of people who live here in Mobile in midtown that despise Trump but they also know Mobile, overall, and Alabama,.as a state, doesn't share their political convictions as a whole and many of their neighbors, even in the more liberal Midtown region, are Republican voters or are MAGA's. I mean, is Donald Trump worth ruining the peaceful tranquility, personal happiness of a neighborhood because you don't like some of their convictions, as idiotic as they may be? I don't want to live in some echo chamber type city or areas of a city where all I hear are views comparable or similar to mine or where I'm not challenged in a meaningful, positive way.



Some people might see it as lying, others might interpret it as compartmentalizing, attempting to live, work and manage their daily lives without extreme drama or histrionics.

That's the very same thing that so many Republicans on Capitol hill are now doing in order to avoid the ire of the Trump electorate that is currently putting the future of our democracy in danger. Sorry, but if you're silent, you're complicit in furthering MAGA and destroying our democracy and country. If the last 4 years and Jan 6th haven't taught us that much, then we really don't deserve this country and the potential of what it could be. MAGA needs to go the way of the KKK and Neo-nazi's and never have another resurgence, and that only happens with people speaking out.

 

[Saintamaniac]

Many of Trump's detractors, critics hate him with almost an extreme passion as equal to if not surpassing the blind devotion, love, worship his MAGA supporters gave him (and still do) at rallies and fundraisers.

Well the majority of the detractors have very good and fact-based reasons behind the passionate hate you describe. Whereas the blind devotioners tend to be extreme hypocrites with selective memory as to allow for their support of someone who goes against every principle they have ever espoused as a political belief.

However, in a neighborhood if you feel like you have to keep your dislike for Trump quiet so as not to rile up his fans aren’t you actually contributing to an echo chamber?

Exactly. If you go along to get along then you fall into the same group of good people who remain quiet and allow bad things to happen.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Edmund Burke.

I think this quote applies to people who remain silent just to keep the peace.

 

[DaveXA]

Well the majority of the detractors have very good and fact-based reasons behind the passionate hate you describe. Whereas the blind devotioners tend to be extreme hypocrites with selective memory as to allow for their support of someone who goes against every principle they have ever espoused as a political belief.

Exactly. If you go along to get along then you fall into the same group of good people who remain quiet and allow bad things to happen.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Edmund Burke.

I think this quote applies to people who remain silent just to keep the peace.

That's all well and good until the rubber actually meets the road. I'm just having a hard time visualizing exactly what those "good" people are supposed to do. What it it you're specifically expecting? I don't think those people are going along to get along. If anything, they're deciding not to go along by not participating in it. Maybe that's not enough, but what would it be? Most people are going to just avoid talking politics with their neighbors because who wants to waste time arguing with a Trumper? I know I don't. I already do it with one person I know of, and that's more than enough for me. Thank goodness she doesn't live in my neighborhood.

If a Trumper lives next door, I'm not gonna talk politics with them, ever.

 

[insidejob]

This is speculation, but I live in a deeply Republican area, in a fairly prosperous suburb. In the run up to the election last year there weren’t too many Biden signs in my neighborhood and there were two Trump signs. However, several of what I called “inclusion” signs popped up, more of those than Trump signs for sure.

Same in my deep red neighborhood in Orleans Parish. I had one of the "In this House We Believe...." signs out front of my house and there were little to no Trump signs to be found at all. Orleans of course voted for Biden overwhelmingly, but the precinct breakdown showed he carried my neighborhood at around 85%. Speaks volumes that his supporters were ashamed to even admit that they were going to vote for him again. And these typically aren't MAGAs. Even my dad who's a Trump supporter wouldn't put a sign in his front yard but he had a giant banner on the fence in his back yard around the pool, owns tons of Trump merch (that he would never wear outside of the house) even has dollar bills that are "worth" 2020 with Trump's face on them.

 

[Mr. Blue Sky]

the precinct breakdown showed he carried my neighborhood at around 85%

Sold my house in the 70124 a couple years back.. and while I realize it’s heavily MAGA, i am surprised at the 85% figure... Guess I shouldn’t be, but wow.

 

[Saintman2884]

Well the majority of the detractors have very good and fact-based reasons behind the passionate hate you describe. Whereas the blind devotioners tend to be extreme hypocrites with selective memory as to allow for their support of someone who goes against every principle they have ever espoused as a political belief.

Exactly. If you go along to get along then you fall into the same group of good people who remain quiet and allow bad things to happen.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Edmund Burke.

I think this quote applies to people who remain silent just to keep the peace.

Well, if you live in a deeply conversative state and in neighborhoods where some, maybe even next-door neighbors are secret Trumpers, are you or others advocating making your neighbors lives a living hell, trying to start nasty, verbal arguments about how hypocritical, extreme and morally vacous their tin god is and by extension, looking to start confrontation s that end in fights or violence and a sense of distrust and hatred that every freaking time both of you leave your homes to do ANYTHING or go ANYWHERE, you'll consider secretly carrying firearms to protect yourselves or your families.

Every day, every week, every month, every year, like Dave wisely pointed out above, when the rhetorical hammer actually falls and goes beyond just words, what form of protests or aggressive confrontation in your own neighborhood, what does it look like? This isn't marching through the streets protesting systemic racism or police brutality, and making your voice known loud and clear and boiustrously, this is next door, or a few doors down the street and the stakes become very stark and VERY DIFFERENT when you construct that reality which millions of anti-Trump critics deal with and I don't know if you truly appreciate how difficult that can become and how that wears down a lot people, mentally, emotionally, and psychologically. Not everyone has the option of moving or relocating to a different, perhaps more-politically friendly part of town, neighborhood, different city, different state, etc.

 

[zztop]

Not everyone has the option of moving or relocating to a different, perhaps more-politically friendly part of town, neighborhood, different city, different state, etc.

It already happens, this "migration" of people, going to more amicable cities/states etc. I know the appeal, I think about moving quite often. On the other hand, I'm not so sure dense consolidation of like-minded people is a 100% good thing, sometimes having varying degrees of different opinions can help people find common ground. You can have polar opposite difference of opinion and still be cordial to one another. Only problem with this is you need everyone to be open to the idea of listening and trying to understand the other opinions, which is difficult.

 

[JRad]

Only problem with this is you need everyone to be open to the idea of listening and trying to understand the other opinions, which is difficult.

I think you can point a big ol’ finger at cable news for this.

 

[Saintamaniac]

I'm just having a hard time visualizing exactly what those "good" people are supposed to do.

I talk politics with a select group of people. My neighbors are not in that group of people. I don't go looking for any verbal confrontations nor am I encouraging anyone to do so. If someone in my presence decides to say something that I know to be false, I don't sit by and let it go because to me, letting it go is tacit approval or agreement with what is being said. Instead, after they voice their opinion, I make verifiable statements to the contrary of what they just said and I let them know that they what they are saying is false and that they should educate themselves to stop the spread of misinformation.

Well, if you live in a deeply conversative state and in neighborhoods where some, maybe even next-door neighbors are secret Trumpers, are you or others advocating making your neighbors lives a living hell, trying to start nasty, verbal arguments about how hypocritical, extreme and morally vacous their tin god is and by extension, looking to start confrontation s that end in fights or violence and a sense of distrust and hatred that every freaking time both of you leave your homes to do ANYTHING or go ANYWHERE, you'll consider secretly carrying firearms to protect yourselves or your families.

The short answer to probably the longest question I've ever been asked is "no". I live in a very trmplican state (there is nothing conservative about current day trumplicans and republicans who are true to their core beliefs and values are an endangered species). I have neighbors and people I consider friends who are trump supporters. On the occassion that we engage in anything remotely political in nature, I will not sit by and accept what they are saying for the sake of getting along.

I have a coworker that I've worked with for 12 years who is a staunch trumplican and former military. We go out of our way to help each other out because that's the type of relationship we've built over the years. She has a way of making political comments that usually parrot the latest conspiracy theory or other provably false beliefs coming from trumplicans. When she does, I simply comment to her that she is mistaken or what she is saying has already been proven false. I don't make her life a living hell nor am I nasty or disrespectful to her because it's not necessary to do that to get my point(s) across to her.

My question to you is this. What would make you feel that the only way to correct someone who is repeating provable lies is to make their life a living hell, trying to start nasty, verbal arguments about how hypocritical, extreme and morally vacous their tin god is and by extension, looking to start confrontations that end in fights or violence and a sense of distrust and hatred that every freaking time both we leave our homes to do ANYTHING or go ANYWHERE, they'll consider secretly carrying firearms to protect themselves or their families?

Do you see it as impossible to speak up when faced with provable falsehoods without the outrageous description you layed out? Are you not capable of having a civil disagreement with someone you completely disagree with? Because I am. And the scenario you laid out, I seriously doubt anything like that is playing out across the country. Furthermore, it's been my experience that the people who tend to fall into your scenario tend to be the people spreading the lies.

 

[GMRfellowtraveller]

Many of Trump's detractors, critics hate him with almost an extreme passion as equal to if not surpassing the blind devotion, love, worship his MAGA supporters gave him (and still do) at rallies and fundraisers.

no. this isn't a both sides thing.

I don't think i'm RIGHT, necessarily. But i KNOW as certainly as I know just about anything that MAGA is dangerously, historically, culturally, politically WRONG
and it doesn't matter if you say "they believe the same thing" because i know I can provide a foundational argument for my positions and I know they can't