Is Russia about to invade Ukraine? (1 Viewer)

[superchuck500]

Russia continues to mass assets within range of Ukraine - though the official explanations are that they are for various exercises. United States intelligence has noted that Russian operatives in Ukraine could launch 'false flag' operations as a predicate to invasion. The West has pressed for negotiations and on Friday in Geneva, the US Sec. State Blinken will meet with the Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov.

Certainly the Russian movements evidence some plan - but what is it? Some analysts believe that Putin's grand scheme involves securing Western commitments that NATO would never expand beyond its current composition. Whether that means action in Ukraine or merely the movement of pieces on the chess board remains to be seen.

VIENNA — No one expected much progress from this past week’s diplomatic marathon to defuse the security crisis Russia has ignited in Eastern Europe by surrounding Ukraine on three sides with 100,000 troops and then, by the White House’s accounting, sending in saboteurs to create a pretext for invasion.

But as the Biden administration and NATO conduct tabletop simulations about how the next few months could unfold, they are increasingly wary of another set of options for President Vladimir V. Putin, steps that are more far-reaching than simply rolling his troops and armor over Ukraine’s border.

Mr. Putin wants to extend Russia’s sphere of influence to Eastern Europe and secure written commitments that NATO will never again enlarge. If he is frustrated in reaching that goal, some of his aides suggested on the sidelines of the negotiations last week, then he would pursue Russia’s security interests with results that would be felt acutely in Europe and the United States.

There were hints, never quite spelled out, that nuclear weapons could be shifted to places — perhaps not far from the United States coastline — that would reduce warning times after a launch to as little as five minutes, potentially igniting a confrontation with echoes of the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis.

Russia Issues Subtle Threats More Far-Reaching Than a Ukraine Invasion

If the West fails to meet its security demands, Moscow could take measures like placing nuclear missiles close to the U.S. coastline, Russian officials have hinted.

www.nytimes.com

Blinken Will Meet With Russia as U.S. Pushes for More Diplomacy

Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken will meet with Foreign Minister Sergey V. Lavrov of Russia in Geneva on Friday as the United States warns that Russia could soon attack Ukraine.

www.nytimes.com

How to think about war in Ukraine

Start with the Ukrainians

snyder.substack.com

 

[DaveXA]

Omg that's so funny. Rather than use some critical thinking you result to childish insults, but I guess that's all you have to go on. The US War machine and the military industrial complex loves dupes like you.

We've tried the critical thinking route, on numerous issues. You do the same thing every. single. time. Just keep ignoring points made and gish galloping to the next issue and moving goal posts. It's not worth wasting everyone's time when you disregard everyone's legitimate points. I just don't feel like you're making a good faith argument. So, that's why you're getting flippant responses from me.

 

[MT15]

SFL, you shouldn’t call people dupes, the irony might fall on your head.

 

[SaintForLife]

We've tried the critical thinking route, on numerous issues. You do the same thing every. single. time. Just keep ignoring points made and gish galloping to the next issue and moving goal posts. It's not worth wasting everyone's time when you disregard everyone's legitimate points. I just don't feel like you're making a good faith argument. So, that's why you're getting flippant responses from me.

What legitimate points? I've yet to hear you or anyone else even reference the 2 coups that the US supported in Ukraine. I posted articles about them. It's pretty relevant to the current situation in Ukraine.

There's no moving goalposts because when I brought up the coups is when you guys started with the childish insults of being a troll or a Putin supporter.

 

[SaintForLife]

SFL, you shouldn’t call people dupes, the irony might fall on your head.

Says one of the biggest believers of the Steele Dossier and the Trump Russia collusion narrative. How did those turn out?

 

[MT15]

What legitimate points? I've yet to hear you or anyone else even reference the 2 coups that the US supported in Ukraine. I posted articles about them. It's pretty relevant to the current situation in Ukraine.

There's no moving goalposts because when I brought up the coups is when you guys started with the childish insults of being a troll or a Putin supporter.

So it’s very telling that you will consider the overthrow of the Russian puppet president a coup, but you have nothing to say about the subsequent invasion of Ukraine by Russia later that year. The Russian puppet president enraged the parliament and the citizenry by choosing Russia over the EU, no doubt following Putin’s orders and ignoring the wishes of both Parliament and the people, which ultimately led to him being voted out by over 70% of the parliament. Whereupon he immediately fled to Russia. Yeah, he was legit, lol.

Says one of the biggest believers of the Steele Dossier and the Trump Russia collusion narrative. How did those turn out?

You need to find where I ever said I “believed” in the Steele Dossier, I discussed it as flawed, raw intelligence. Which it was and is. Some true, some not true, some planted by Russia.

There absolutely was collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia. We know this as a fact. I’m sorry your Twitter follows require you to believe the fairy tale that Trump didn’t welcome help from Russia. It should be clear to a fence post by now that Trump doesn’t give a crap where his support comes from. He has zero regard for this country, only his own bank account and power.

 

[UriUT]

Very telling that what you took from a US official planning the installation of a puppet leader is "susceptible to Russian propaganda."

It's obvious that the constant US propaganda has clouded your brain.

Touche. The "I'm rubber and you're glue" argument.

So where was in that carefully released snippet did you see regime install? I see influences and direction that the us wants Ukraine to move. Did you know that when the ussr collapsed, the us had an opportunity to influence Russia if it offered aide? Perhaps if Bush and Clinton pushed we may not have Putin?

Do you have any comment about the 2 coups that the US supported in Ukraine or will you just continue with the deflections and the new age Mccarthyism?

Ok enlightened one, please tell us? The Russian experts I read didnt mention this? You know much about Ukraine.

And please dont include italicized text you pasted from some conspiracy site. Use your own thoughts. The last one was a doozy.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

Omg that's so funny. Rather than use some critical thinking you result to childish insults, but I guess that's all you have to go on. The US War machine and the military industrial complex loves dupes like you.

HA!!! Critical thinking??? That is just laughable coming from a person that believes that the United States orchestrated two military coups in Ukraine in an effort to install a puppet government. It is truly sad that you have been convinced that what you believe has any factual basis. Let's say, for shirts and giggles, the US did do what you believe, what is their endgame? What do we get out of a Ukrainian puppet government?

 

[UriUT]

So it’s very telling that you will consider the overthrow of the Russian puppet president a coup, but you have nothing to say about the subsequent invasion of Ukraine by Russia later that year. The Russian puppet president enraged the parliament and the citizenry by choosing Russia over the EU, no doubt following Putin’s orders and ignoring the wishes of both Parliament and the people, which ultimately led to him being voted out by over 70% of the parliament. Whereupon he immediately fled to Russia. Yeah, he was legit, lol.

You need to find where I ever said I “believed” in the Steele Dossier, I discussed it as flawed, raw intelligence. Which it was and is. Some true, some not true, some planted by Russia.

There absolutely was collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia. We know this as a fact. I’m sorry your Twitter follows require you to believe the fairy tale that Trump didn’t welcome help from Russia. It should be clear to a fence post by now that Trump doesn’t give a crap where his support comes from. He has zero regard for this country, only his own bank account and power.

This is my theory and you make a good point. He is ingrained to believe the hunter Biden theory and that zero collusion existed. that the us, being the big bad, must've installed puppet regimes in Ukraine and across the world to fit his belief. They, the liberal elites, installed a friendly regime so that hunter Biden with his ill intent can use his nefarious position to corrupt and enrich.

What he doesnt understand is that the us IS actively promoting democratic ideals to the rest of the world. That has been us policy since wwii. This wilsonian international order is meant to maintain peace and stability. In ukraines case the us has pressed for more corruption control...biden actually was the most aggressive in Obama s admin..he favored tougher sanctions on Russia after Crimea. That is influence. Its rather insulting to ukrainians that he doesnt believe the grassroots movement. That they genuinely want a better life. That is what separates ukraine from the failed regime change that actually occurred in Afghanistan. Which btw was a catalyst of 911...not the us policy of regime change.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

This is my theory and you make a good point. He is ingrained to believe the hunter Biden theory and that zero collusion existed. that the us, being the big bad, must've installed puppet regimes in Ukraine and across the world to fit his belief. They, the liberal elites, installed a friendly regime so that hunter Biden with his ill intent can use his nefarious position to corrupt and enrich.

What he doesnt understand is that the us IS actively promoting democratic ideals to the rest of the world. That has been us policy since wwii. This wilsonian international order is meant to maintain peace and stability. In ukraines case the us has pressed for more corruption control...biden actually was the most aggressive in Obama s admin..he favored tougher sanctions on Russia after Crimea. That is influence. Its rather insulting to ukrainians that he doesnt believe the grassroots movement. That they genuinely want a better life. That is what separates ukraine from the failed regime change that actually occurred in Afghanistan. Which btw was a catalyst of 911...not the us policy of regime change.

Ahhh!!! Now I get it! The US instigated this special operation in order to keep hidden the rigged voting machines that were exported there with the billions from Hunter Biden's secret accounts!!!

 

[SaintForLife]

According to one study, the U.S. performed at least 81 overt and covert known interventions in foreign elections during the period 1946–2000.[6] Another study found that the U.S. engaged in 64 covert and six overt attempts at regime change during the Cold War.[1]

Following the dissolution of the Soviet Union, the United States has led or supported wars to determine the governance of a number of countries. Stated U.S. aims in these conflicts have included fighting the War on Terror, as in the Afghan War, or removing weapons of mass destruction (WMDs), as in the Iraq War.

Just from the 1990's and beyond where the US was involved in regime change:

1991 Iraq
1991 Haiti
1992 Iraq
1994 Haiti
1996 Zaire
2000 FR Yugoslavia
2001 Afghanistan
2003 Iraq
2005 Kyrgyzstan
2005 Syria
2011 Libya
2012 Syria

United States involvement in regime change - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Foreign electoral intervention

Theoretical and empirical research on the effect of foreign electoral intervention had been characterized as weak overall as late as 2011; however, since then a number of such studies have been conducted.[1] One study indicated that the country intervening in most foreign elections is the United States with 81 interventions, followed by Russia (including the former Soviet Union) with 36 interventions from 1946 to 2000—an average of once in every nine competitive elections.[2][3][4]

Foreign electoral intervention - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

United States involvement in regime change in Latin America:

Argentina
Bolivia
Brazil
Chile
Costa Rica
Cuba
Dominican Republic
Guatemala
Nicaragua
Panama
Paraguay

CIA:

Enduring Cold War Imperialism: On Vincent Bevins’s “The Jakarta Method” | Los Angeles Review of Books

A review of Vincent Bevins’s reflections on America’s efforts to maintain power during the Cold War.

lareviewofbooks.org

The Jakarta Method - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I posted this before in this thread, but it was ignored:

It's not Russia that's pushed Ukraine to the brink of war | Seumas Milne

Seumas Milne: The attempt to lever Kiev into the western camp by ousting an elected leader made conflict certain. It could be a threat to us all

www.theguardian.com

Ian Traynor: US campaign behind the turmoil in Kiev

Analysis: Ukraine, traditionally passive in its politics, has been mobilised by young democracy activists and will never be the same again.

www.theguardian.com

The British-American coup that ended Australian independence | John Pilger

John Pilger: In 1975 prime minister Gough Whitlam, who has died this week, dared to try to assert his country’s autonomy. The CIA and MI6 made sure he paid the price

www.theguardian.com

Coup in Kiev - Antiwar.com

Ukraine is exploding, and the force of the eruption may plunge not only the country but also Europe and the US into an abyss out of which there is no easy - Justin Raimondo for Antiwar.com

original.antiwar.com

What You Should Really Know About Ukraine

Media echoed the view that the US should have an active role in Ukrainian politics and enforce its perspective through military threats.

fair.org

Those aren't Russian sources as someone claimed earlier. Can anyone point out what's not true in those articles especially the FAIR article? Something short is fine.

Once again, pointing out the US's hand in Ukraine or other countries doesn't excuse Russia for their invasion or mean that I think the US caused Russia to invade Ukraine. Putin is a bad guy and I don't support him at all. I know it's easy to accuse anyone of supporting Russia who brings up the US's role of using Ukraine in a proxy war against Russia.

 

[SaintForLife]

HA!!! Critical thinking??? That is just laughable coming from a person that believes that the United States orchestrated two military coups in Ukraine in an effort to install a puppet government. It is truly sad that you have been convinced that what you believe has any factual basis. Let's say, for shirts and giggles, the US did do what you believe, what is their endgame? What do we get out of a Ukrainian puppet government?

Yeah because the US has never been involved in any coups right?

 

[SaintForLife]

Touche. The "I'm rubber and you're glue" argument.

So where was in that carefully released snippet did you see regime install? I see influences and direction that the us wants Ukraine to move. Did you know that when the ussr collapsed, the us had an opportunity to influence Russia if it offered aide? Perhaps if Bush and Clinton pushed we may not have Putin?


Ok enlightened one, please tell us? The Russian experts I read didnt mention this? You know much about Ukraine.

And please dont include italicized text you pasted from some conspiracy site. Use your own thoughts. The last one was a doozy.

Check our the FAIR article and get back to me. There are multiple specific details about the US involvement in Ukraine.

 

[SystemShock]

What he doesnt understand is that the us IS actively promoting democratic ideals to the rest of the world. That has been us policy since wwii.

Not exactly... mixed record... many times "democracy" has been an euphemism for "U.S. friendly" and not resulted in actual democracy. Batista, Pahlavi, Somoza, Ortega (until he tried to sell the canal), etc.... some of them passively, some of them not so passively, but yeah, mixed record...

That doesn't mean that I think the U.S. installed anyone in Ukraine, or that Russia has a case for invading Ukraine.

 

[MT15]

The irony here, or one irony because there’s a lot, is that from what I understand the US has mostly got it right in Ukraine. It’s very clear that the Ukrainian people want to be a democracy, and they want to be a part of Europe and not a Russian puppet state.

And the people SFL listens to still shirt all over the US. And he buys it. Irony upon irony.

 

[CoolBrees]

Would someone tell the people at Wikipedia that there was no regime change in Iraq in the 90’s at all- let alone two - supported by the US? When Saddam invaded Kuwait, we invaded Iraq. It there was no regime change as Saddam was still in power. Everybody knows that. That’s embarrassing that they post such obviously false information. It makes people really suspect when it comes to their credibility.

Also the Ukrainians have been struggling with / for / against Russians for longer than we were even a colony so the MIC argument is kinda missing the mark a bit.

Finally, the US didn’t invade Russia. Didn’t dare Russia to invade Ukraine. Had normal, albeit a bit frosty, relations and trade with Russia. Like 5 months ago. Then they invaded their neighbor. For no reason I can see other than territorial dominance.


But we are the simpletons that fell for propaganda

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

...Those aren't Russian sources as someone claimed earlier. Can anyone point out what's not true in those articles especially the FAIR article? Something short is fine.

Once again, pointing out the US's hand in Ukraine or other countries doesn't excuse Russia for their invasion or mean that I think the US caused Russia to invade Ukraine. Putin is a bad guy and I don't support him at all. I know it's easy to accuse anyone of supporting Russia who brings up the US's role of using Ukraine in a proxy war against Russia.

Know your sources:

John Pilger:

On the Poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal in Salisbury, Wiltshire on 4 March 2018, Pilger said in an interview on RT: "This is a carefully constructed drama as part of the propaganda campaign that has been building now for several years in order to justify the actions of NATO, Britain and the United States, towards Russia. That’s a fact". Such events as the Iraq War, "at the very least should make us sceptical of Theresa May’s theatrics in Parliament". He hinted that the UK government may have been involved in the attack, saying it had motive and that the nearby Porton Down laboratory has a "long and sinister record with nerve gas and chemical weapons".[100]

Seumas Milne:

Milne has attacked what he calls "the creeping historical revisionism that tries to equate Nazism and communism."[70] In 2002, he wrote that the victims of Nazism "in the distorted prism of the new history ... are somehow lost from the equation. At the same time, the number of victims of Stalin's terror has been progressively inflated over recent years." He argues there is a tendency to "relativise the unique crimes of Nazism, bury those of colonialism and feed the idea that any attempt at radical social change will always lead to suffering, killing and failure."[71] He has written that crimes of communist states "are now so well rehearsed that they are in danger of obliterating any understanding of its achievements, both of which have lessons for the future of progressive politics and the search for a social alternative to globalised capitalism."[72]

In a 2006 Guardian article, Milne argued: "For all its brutalities and failures, communism in the Soviet Union, eastern Europe and elsewhere delivered rapid industrialisation, mass education, job security and huge advances in social and gender equality. It encompassed genuine idealism and commitment ... Its existence helped to drive up welfare standards in the west, boosted the anticolonial movement and provided a powerful counterweight to western global domination."[73

I don't care to look any further into the other authors of the opinion pieces you provided as "whataboutisims" because it would be a further waste of my time and effort.

Yes, the US has attempted multiple regime changes and each time it has resulted in making matters worse. I have yet to see an example of the US outright invading a democratic nation and razing their cities to install a puppet regime.

 

[UriUT]

Not exactly... mixed record... many times "democracy" has been an euphemism for "U.S. friendly" and not resulted in actual democracy. Batista, Pahlavi, Somoza, Ortega (until he tried to sell the canal), etc.... some of them passively, some of them not so passively, but yeah, mixed record...

That doesn't mean that I think the U.S. installed anyone in Ukraine, or that Russia has a case for invading Ukraine.

Agree. The cold war lead to many partnership contrary to America s idealistic foreign policy. Iran pre revolution and even today Saudi Arabia's Alliance of convenience comes to mind. However the belief of those in the foreign services will be undoubtedly that liberal democracies would lead to more peace and stability. and it is to that end that they would tend to focus.

 

[brandon]

According to one study, the U.S. performed at least 81 overt and covert known interventions in foreign elections during the period 1946–2000.[6] Another study found that the U.S. engaged in 64 covert and six overt attempts at regime change during the Cold War.[1]

Following the dissolution of the Soviet Union, the United States has led or supported wars to determine the governance of a number of countries. Stated U.S. aims in these conflicts have included fighting the War on Terror, as in the Afghan War, or removing weapons of mass destruction (WMDs), as in the Iraq War.

Just from the 1990's and beyond where the US was involved in regime change:

1991 Iraq
1991 Haiti
1992 Iraq
1994 Haiti
1996 Zaire
2000 FR Yugoslavia
2001 Afghanistan
2003 Iraq
2005 Kyrgyzstan
2005 Syria
2011 Libya
2012 Syria

United States involvement in regime change - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Foreign electoral intervention

Theoretical and empirical research on the effect of foreign electoral intervention had been characterized as weak overall as late as 2011; however, since then a number of such studies have been conducted.[1] One study indicated that the country intervening in most foreign elections is the United States with 81 interventions, followed by Russia (including the former Soviet Union) with 36 interventions from 1946 to 2000—an average of once in every nine competitive elections.[2][3][4]

Foreign electoral intervention - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

United States involvement in regime change in Latin America:

Argentina
Bolivia
Brazil
Chile
Costa Rica
Cuba
Dominican Republic
Guatemala
Nicaragua
Panama
Paraguay

CIA:

Enduring Cold War Imperialism: On Vincent Bevins’s “The Jakarta Method” | Los Angeles Review of Books

A review of Vincent Bevins’s reflections on America’s efforts to maintain power during the Cold War.

lareviewofbooks.org

The Jakarta Method - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I posted this before in this thread, but it was ignored:

It's not Russia that's pushed Ukraine to the brink of war | Seumas Milne

Seumas Milne: The attempt to lever Kiev into the western camp by ousting an elected leader made conflict certain. It could be a threat to us all

www.theguardian.com

Ian Traynor: US campaign behind the turmoil in Kiev

Analysis: Ukraine, traditionally passive in its politics, has been mobilised by young democracy activists and will never be the same again.

www.theguardian.com

The British-American coup that ended Australian independence | John Pilger

John Pilger: In 1975 prime minister Gough Whitlam, who has died this week, dared to try to assert his country’s autonomy. The CIA and MI6 made sure he paid the price

www.theguardian.com

Coup in Kiev - Antiwar.com

Ukraine is exploding, and the force of the eruption may plunge not only the country but also Europe and the US into an abyss out of which there is no easy - Justin Raimondo for Antiwar.com

original.antiwar.com

What You Should Really Know About Ukraine

Media echoed the view that the US should have an active role in Ukrainian politics and enforce its perspective through military threats.

fair.org

Those aren't Russian sources as someone claimed earlier. Can anyone point out what's not true in those articles especially the FAIR article? Something short is fine.

Once again, pointing out the US's hand in Ukraine or other countries doesn't excuse Russia for their invasion or mean that I think the US caused Russia to invade Ukraine. Putin is a bad guy and I don't support him at all. I know it's easy to accuse anyone of supporting Russia who brings up the US's role of using Ukraine in a proxy war against Russia.

Does this excuse Russia’s actions?